Onggirats was one of the oldest Mongol clans, Chinggis Khaan's mother and his wife Borte just came from this clan. After Chinggis Khaan established his empire, Onggirats immigrated to different area following their leaders.

The largest part of the Onggirat clan immigrated to the south where was populated by the Khitans at that time.  They assimilated the Khitans into their group and became the most powerful tribe in South-eastern Mongolia. but, they were eventually absorbed by their northern neighbor tribes such as the Urianghai during the time of northern Yuan dynasty. Those Onggirats who stayed in their original homeland, the lower Halha river valley and Hulunbuir steppe, became one of 5 south Halha clans, who also immigrated to the south later. Tumed Mongols ever comprised a Onggirat clan too, but we have no a single Onggirat clan among the present-day Mongols today.

I heard that Kazakhs and other central asia Turkic nations have Onggirat(Hongirat) tribes, anyone could provide us some details about them here?

Onggirats were famous for their beautiful women among the Mongols, not only Chinggis Khaan's mother and his first queen are Onggirats,  there were also many Onggirat women as Yuan emperor's queen.

I didn't know if there were Onggirats among Azer tribes, but the Onggirats should have immigrated to central asia and other area following Chagatai Khaan, Batu Khaan and others, so, I'm waiting for Kazakh or Uzbek friends who could enlighten us here.

I read those about Lithuania Tatars in another thread just now, I'm quite surpised to see so many familiar tribenames among Tatar people. My family was originated from Uushun clan, by the way.

I quote the post here:

South-eastern Mongolia was populated by the Khitans and a small part of Jurchens before Mongolia conquered Altan Khanate(Jurchen empire), then Onggirats and other 4 Mongol tribes(Jalair, Uulu, Mongru and Ilykz)migrated there and absorbed those former inhabitants of Khitans and others during the time of the great Yuan Khanate. Onggirats' northern neighbours, who were Urianghai tribe and other 2 tribes Ongnut and Uqiyet, rised to power gradually during northern Yuan dynasty, migrated into the land ruled by Onggirats and other 4 tribes and, eventually absorded all of 5 Onggirat tribes. However, the 3 Urianghai tribes also couldn't maintain their power in South-eastern Mongolia. Most of Ongnuts and Uqiyets were absorbed by Chahars(the tribe directly ruled by the great Khan), 5 South Halha and Horchin, while most of Urianghai were absorbed by Yungsiyebu-Kharchin and Tumed-Mongulchin tribes in the end. So, you can say 3 Urianghai tribes absorbed 5 Onggirat tribes, then Horchins and others absorbed 3 Urianghai tribes.

I hope it's not too complex to understand. A list of the tribes in south-eastern Mongolia during the different times.

1) Eastern Huns, the eastern neighbors of Xiong-nu(Western Huns)

2) Xianbei tribes, such as Yuwen and Murong. (Note: Yunwen was a mixed tribes of Xiongnu and Xianbei)

3) Khitans and Kumusin(the descendants of Yunwen Xianbei according the opinions of many scholars) and a small part of the Jurchens.

4) Mongol tribes:

    5 Onggirat(Ongirat, Jalair, Uulu, Mongru and Ilykz)

    3 Urianghai(Urianghai, Ongnut and Uqiyet)

    the tribes from Mongols' left(east) wing: Chahar, Horchin, 5 South Halha; and the tribes from Mongols' right(west) wing: Kharchin, Tumed, Mongulchin.

Today, Horchins and Kharchins are the largest Mongolian population in the south-eastern Mongolia (or the eastern part of Inner Mongolia), btw.

A full Tribe List Of Mongolia During Northern Yuan Dynasty:

1) Eastern Mongolians

West(right) wing: Yungsiyebu-Kharchin Tumen, Mongulchin-Tumed Tumen, Ordos Tumen.

East(left) wing: Chahar Tumen, Halha Tumen, Urianghai Tumen(a different branch of the Urianghai). Horchin Tumen.

3 Urianghai Tribes: Urianghai, Ongut, Uqiyet.

2) Western Mongolians, known as 4 Oirad:

Choros(Dzungar), Dorbod, Turgod, Khoshod. and Buryats in Siberia.

Tumen = 10,000 families.

Today's Northern Mongolians are the descendants of 7 northern clans of Halha Tumen, and also absorbed many people from Urianghai tumen and Oirad Mongols. While, today's Mongolians living in China, are the descendants of the rest: most of eastern Mongolians(including 5 southern Halha tribes), and most of 4 Oirad tribes and all of 3 Urianghai tribes.

The present population of Mongolians in China are only twice than Mongolia's population, so you can imagine what happened to them during Manchu conquest and China's rule. Halha Mongols hadn't been the largest Mongol tribe during northern Yuan dynasty, but they are today and they are the only Mongolians who got their own nation-state in this world.

So, I have to say the Mongolians, as a whole, had a very sad history since Manchu conquest.  

Did you read my post about Inner/Southern Mongolians? The population of Southern Mongolians should be far larger than Northern Mongolians, but they aren't today because of being ruled by Manchus, then by Chinese.  

If the descendants of 7 northern clans of Halha Tuman can reach to 2 million today, then the descendants of 5 sorthern clans of Halha tumen living in Inner Mongolia, should achieve it too, but how many are they today? Tumed tumen, Chahar tumen, Orods Tumen, Kharchin Tumen, Horchin Tumen, 4 Oirads, all of them should have a similar population compared to today's Halha(Mongolia's people), but how many are they today? Don't tell us Inner Mongolia has a larger Mongolian population than Mongolia. Mongolian's population in Inner Mongolia should reach to 20 million or more, but they are replaced by Chinese.

Akskl, I didn't say Halha Mongol's Onggirat tribe flee to Kazakhstan to be Kazakh's Qongirats. The Onggirats were a large group of the ancient Mongolica nomads before Mongol or Kazakh as a nation appeared in the history. Kazakh's Qongirat was a nice sample for those Turkified Mongol tribes among the Kazakhs, while Uzbek's Barlas, a tribe which Timurlenk was originated from, was another sample among the Uzbeks. On the other hand, those tribes you mentioned above, such as Keriet, Naiman, Ongud, Kipchak, are also the Mongolized Turkic groups among the modern Mongolians. Despite their Mongolica or Turkic origins, they were all very ancient tribes before Mongol nation, Kazakh nation, or other Turkic nations appeared in the history.

Thank for your link, btw.

http://www.elim.kz - www.elim.kz I try for several times, but I don't know why i can't enter this site yet, could anyone paste the content of this site here for me? thanks.

And mongols of the 13th century were kazakhs.  And the kazakhs of today are mongols.  Mongols are not mongols and kazakhs are not kazakhs.    How do you like it?

I think, you are not satisfied with the history of Kazakhstan because kazakhs played no role in world history.  So you and your friend (Kazakhstan's president) are inventing an exciting history about your country?                     

I hope, you become one day the history-minister of Kazakhstan.

In Yuan the the most people of this dynasty spoke Chinese.  Were the mongols chinese?

I know someone who is of german origin and has a german family name but speaks only russian. There are many people like him in Russia. Were the germans russian?

In Mongolia there are a few turkic people of Khoton tribe and they speak only west mongolian dialect. Were they originally mongols? 

In Mongolia there are also people of Shira-Kirgiz tribe and they speak all mongolian.  Were the kyrgyz people originally mongols?  

In Mongolia there are also people of Asud clan.  They were part of Alans, who came in Mongolia during Mongke Khan's reign and later under Khublai Khan fought with mongols against chinese of Song dynasty. Were Alans mongolian just because Asud people in Mongolia speak only mongolian?      

Genghis became Japanese, Chinese and Russian(-> A.T Fomenko).  And now a kazakh guy?

(( ( ( ( (    ) ) ))))

PS: 

1) See Guyuk khan' seal(Genghis' grandson) on the letter sent to Pope of Rome. Now this letter is in Vatican. This was written clearly on mongolian language. Why should use the great turk guy Guyuk mongolian language instead of kazakh-turkic?  

2)  Why are there many primary sources from Yuan Dynasty written on mongolian language? 

3) Do you know so called Genghis' stone? The script was written on mongolian(short after the arrival of Genghis' army from Qwarezm).

4) Are you OK? Inferiority complex?  

Then open the Genghis Khan's tomb for archeologists!

Your Khalkha-Mongol propaganda (without Russian restrictions and censorship) brainwashed everybody.  And westerners do not care about the difference between Turkic nomad tribes and Khalkha Mongols - they used to call all of them as "Mongols". First they write about so-called "Turco-Mongols", who were all speaking Turkic language, and then, "for brevity", keep call them just "Mongols". The "Mongols" who were (and are) Turkic speakers!   
Khalkha-Mongols "historians" also try to  usurp heritage of all other ancient Turkic empires like Hunnu, Huns, Toba, Sha'tuo,  etc. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-0953619-1846451#reader-page - http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/002 -0953619-1846451#reader-page

Click on the book 7 times and read Chapter 1, please.

It seems most of posts under the thread aren't on the topic. I just want to get some informations about the descendants of the Khongirats in the modern Turkic groups.

I agree with akskl with that Kazakhstan have been one of the more direct successors of Chagatai Khanate or Mongulstan in their history compared to modern Mongolia, as well as Golden Horde and other Mongol Khanate in ancient Turkistan. but as for Hsiung-nu, Sian-pei, Turuk and other ancient Khanates in Mongolia. I totally disagree with your statement. I have a statement about it in another post, I paste it here.

Back to my topic about the Khongirats. I'm glad that there're the Qongirats among the Kazakhs, Tatars, and other Turkic groups today, and it's why I hope to get some informations about them, but, on the other hand, the Khongirats didn't disappear in Mongolia but were absorbed by other Mongol tribes, as well as Nayman, Keriet, Ongut and other ancient tribes in the Mongolian steppes. I can't understant why you said that the modern Halha Mongols have nothing to do with the Khongirats while I have told you that the Kongirats were ever one of 5 Southern Halha clans. Did you read my post?

Manchu emperor Kangsi's Mongol grandmother was from the Gorlos clan of the Horchin Mongols. Gorlos was the name of a Khongirat chiefman, his people adopted his name as their tribename later, so the Gorlos should be a branch of the ancient Khongirat tribe, which became one of the Horchin tribes in the end. Horchin's royal family was Chinggis Khaan's younger brother Hasar and his descendants. Kangsi's grandmother, I think, should be Hasar's descendant.

Bumbutai, known as Queen Xiao_zhuang by Chinese, the queen of Hong Tayji, the first Qing emperor, and emperor Kangsi's grandmother.  

http://image2.sina.com.cn/dy/c/2004-11-12/1100225146_LnayzN.jpg -  

Akskl,

your claim that mongols of the 13th century were turkic speaking people is very naiv and ridiculous.

Genghis' Stone is in Hermitage Museum of St.Petersburg. The script is on mongolian language.  Guyuk Khan's letter and the seal sent to Pope was on mongolian language( http://www.silk-road.com/artl/carrub.shtml - http://www.silk-road.com/artl/carrub.shtml ). Il Khan Argun's letter sent to Philip the Fair was on mongolian language. Emperors of Yuan Dynasty used officially mongolian and chinese script(there are too many documents). 

How can a normal man claim that mongols were turkic speaking?

All niruns - kiyat (kiyat-kuralas), dulat (dughlat), suan, iysun (iysut), barlas, katagan, mangyt, mailto:barin@ets - barin&ets are turkic tribes.

Most  darlekins - kongirat, uryanhay, bayauyt, argyns (union darlekin tribes from argunokon) also from turkic tribes.

Lol, then who were the Mongols? Chinggis Khaan only?

The names of these clans are mongolian. Read secret History of Mongols, the oldest primary source about Genghis Khan.

Today's Mongols consists of such tribes: Halha, Durved, Bayad, Hoton, Myangat, Zahchin, Torguud, Hotogoid, Darhad, Eeld, Barga, Dariganga, Tsahar, Harchin, Buriad, Sunit.
No niruns, no darlekins.

But today�s Turkic nations have all niruns and darlekins + naimans, kereits, onguts, tatars, jalairs and etc.
The Mongol means a word on Turkic "the Eternal country" (mäŋgi el).

In general as believes that ancestors of present Mongols have won the world on a pony - horse. It likely a fairy tale for not Turkic people. Height, weight and speed of horses very important during war.

----------------------------------

Borte Chino means Bori Ashina.

I think, you are wrong. The tribes above you mentioned consist of all possible clans.  An example: Among Durved there are many people who consider themselves as taichut.    

Read the travel notes of Carpini and Rubruk(1245-1253). There was mentioned about mongolian horses near Wolga River. And read what John Spalato about mongol horses wrote during the Subedei's campaign in Hungary(this is btw primary source).

He was of course a kazakh-turkic guy.

blitz wrote

Russia always helped you country, you have received more than 50 billion Soviet roubles within the Soviet period. You till now debt more than 30 billion.

And that we have received: more than 900 nuclear explosions, imitation starvation, emigration, russification, a virgin soil, a genocide. Because to us always revenged for the past.

Now we the independent country. Want or do not want we shall return  own history. Then we shall look "who are wrong".

I think it is true. I have wondered why Nogai were Turkic, if they came as "mongols"? There are many words in Ossetic language adopted at the time of Golden Horde, but they are of Turkic origin, but there are almost none Mongolian.

Does anybody know which Turkic language has "kundursu" as type of yogurt?

Not at all.  Among Kalmyks too there are people of taichut.  among mongols there are also merkits.

At first, I'm not mongol.  And sorry about your country.  At last I don't think that soviets tested atom boms in your country because you kazakhs are mongols.  

Oh, again such sh-i-t.  Explain me, why there are many primary sources of 13th century on mongolian language, such as Guyuk Khan's letter to Pope, edicts of yuan dynasty, Letters of argun Khan to King of France etc...

In China there are a few chinese speakin russian minority. But you can't conclude that russians were chinese. It is kazakh-turkic absurd of an oxymoron.  

It might be. I am not either Mongol nor Turk. I don't care much.  It might be Mongols in Horde, but they were probably minority, because the land of the Horde is now populated by Turkic nations mostly. I have also read something telling Chingiz Khan was a Kazah. It might be also some panturkist propagandists have confused me.

I wrote, in Mongolia there are people of Yellow-Kirgiz clan. They speak Mongolian as their mother language. But we can't conclude that the Kirgizs were Mongols.  I wrote also, there are some people of Asud(->Osyetin in Russia) clan, who were descendants of Alans. But we can't coclude that Alans were Mongols.

So there are people of mongol origin in Kazakhstan. But you can't say that the mongols of 13th century were kazakh-turks. It is absurd.  

And also there are many sources of that time that the ruling mongol khans used mongolian language on stone, on their seal, letter and in other documents(in Yuan, Ilkhanate and later in Mongolia since 1368).

How can I cocnlude that Genghis and their "Mongols" were turkic speaking guys? Is it a normal logic?

Originally posted by Anbalan It might be. I am not either Mongol nor Turk. I don't care much.  It might be Mongols in Horde, but they were probably minority, because the land of the Horde is now populated by Turkic nations mostly. I have also read something telling Chingiz Khan was a Kazah. It might be also some panturkist propagandists have confused me.

You are right. In West Mongols occupied Turkestan, Kipchak steppe and Persia. And Mongols were minority. So they were absorbed for some hundred years  by turks and persian people.

The name "kazakh" stemmed from the 15-16th century. Genghis died in 1227.  So you can't say that he was a kazakh guy. But it is true that descendants of Jochi(Gengis' oldest son) ruled the latter kazakh tribes. Kazakhs are mostly descendants of kipchak turks, who were conquered by mongols.

Before we get a conclusion, it's better we can study from each other on those that you probably know less before. It's why I didn't get a conclusion that the modern Kazakhs are the Mongol's descendants because one of the largest Kazakh tribe Qongirat were Mongolian originated. On the other hand, I also hope you could learn some about the later history of the Mongols after Chinggis Khaan, before you get your conclusions.

1) The Khongirat tribe was one of 5 southern Halha tribes, but not one of "600 small tribes" stated by you above. It's a very large part for the Halha's tribal elements. Halha was originally a common name for those tribes who live near to the Halha river, It's not an unknown group replaced those former tribes such as the Khongirats, the Naimans, the Keriets, etc. as you imagine. Those ancient tribes which are familiar for you, live together near to Halha river, and adopted this new common tribename Halha for all of them.  

2) There were also a larger part of the Khongirats among other Mongol tribes. For example, the Khongirats was one of 12 Tumed tribes, The Gorlos, a branch of the Khongirats, was one of the Horchin tribes. And, the largest part of the Qongirats, in fact, should be the Khongirat Tumen(10,000 families) in the today's South-eastern Inner Mongolia during the great Yuan dynasty, who was absorbed by the Urianghai and others later.

166.     Erimbetov, Myltyqbai Mamytuly, ,  Qongyrat shezhiresi zhane oghan qatysty anggimeler: Urany - "Alatau"; tangbasy - "Bosagha" [Qongyrat genealogy...], in Kazakh, Almaty, Zhalyn, 1993, 136 pp., PB, print-run: 50000, ISBN5-610-01169-8  SUBJECT(S)/KEYWORD(S): Anthropology; History         US$16.15

http://www.meabooks.com/html/kazakhstan.HTM - http://www.meabooks.com/html/kazakhstan.HTM

301.     Erimbetov, Myltyqbai Mamytuly, ,  Qongyrat shezhiresi zhane oghan qatysty anggimeler: Urany - "Alatau"; tangbasy - "Bosagha" [Qongyrat genealogy...], in Kazakh, Almaty, Zhalyn, 1993, 136 pp., PB, print-run: 50000, ISBN5-610-01169-8  SUBJECT(S)/KEYWORD(S): Anthropology; History         US$7.8

http://www.globalserve.net/~eurasian/Kazakhstan/kazakhstan.html - http://www.globalserve.net/~eurasian/Kazakhstan/kazakhstan.h tml

Interesting paper about Kazakhs:

http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/sympo/98summer/pdf/uyama.pdf - http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/sympo/98summer/pdf/uyama.pdf

ShEZHIRE AS IDEOLOGICAL INSTITUTE OF THE TRADITIONAL SOCIETY

http://www.elim.kz/eng/about.php.htm - http://www.elim.kz/eng/about.php.htm

In spite of the quarrel about Khongirat's Mongol or Turkish origins. I like to see many more informations about them and their descendants in Turkistan.

I have a question that, if the Gorlos(or Kuralas) were also recognized as a sub-tribe or cousin tribe of the Khongirats by the Kazakhs? There's a legend of the Gorlos/Khongirat/Ikilas about their origins in Mongolia. I didn't know if the Qongirat or Kuralas Kazakhs have the similar legend about their origins.

It said that, God's daughters turn to the swans and fly to a lake to have a bath there, but a large eagle catched the youngest one, at this time, a brave archer shoot that eagle down and save the little swan princess. The princess was very grateful and decided to marry this young archer. then, they had 3 sons, but God couldn't allow that an ordinary steppeman marry his belonged daughter, so he decided to catched this family to the heaven and executed the man and his sons, however, the queen couldn't see his grandsons were executed, She send them back to the steppe carrying them with a golden basin. When the 3 boys rise up, they became the ancestors of the 3 tribes: Khongirat, Ikilas and Gorlos.

I noticed that forum kyrgyz.ru/, provided by Kuralas, there're also some discussions about the Qongirats, I find a online translator tool to help me read those posts in Russian, it seems they also mentioned the swan ancestor of the Qongirats.

Yes , Borte khatan(queen)`s father Dai Setsen were powerful and popular person in Hongirad clan. Dai setsen once helped Chingis khan, revealing that Hongirad clan and tatars were planning to kill him.

And i found this:

There were 2 powerful tribes along with 68 others that were making Mongol tribe. One is Darligin , and other is Nirun (later Ju-Jan).
19 clans were making Nirun (Ju-Jan):
- 1. Hatangin
- 2. Saljiut
- 3. Taichud ( Ambagai khan and his son Targudai Hiriltug is from this clan)
- 4. Hartahan
- 5. Sejigud
- 6. Chonos
- 7. Noyahan
- 8. Uruchud (urud)
- 9. Mangud
- 10. Dorbed
- 11. Baarin
- 12. Barulas
- 13. Hadarhan
- 14. Jadaran (temujin`s old friend Jamukh is from this clan)
- 15. Botagad
- 16. Duklad
- 17. Iisut (besud)
- 18. Sukhan
- 19. Kuchgiyat

And 18 clans were making Darligin tribe:

- 1. Nukus (nugus)
- 2. Uriangkhan (Urianhai)
- 3. Hongirad (hongirat) (Borte ujin is from this clan)
- 4. Ihires
- 5. Olhonud (Oelun mother is from this clan)
- 6. Gorlos
- 7. Iljigan
- 8. Haranud (Kharanud)
- 9. Hongilachud (Khongilachud)
- 10. Honhotan (khonhotan)
- 11. Arulad
- 12. Hilingud
- 13. Kunjim
- 14. Gujin (ujin)
- 15. Suldusun
- 16. Ildurhin
- 17. Baychud
- 18. Ortachud (kingit)

Khongirat, Kuralas/Gorlos, and Ikires had same roots like that I have told above according to today's Gorlos tribal legend. They probably had many sub-clans such as the Olhonud. These 3 tribes were categorized as the Darlenkin Mongols, however, Alan-goa, a lady from the Kuralas(Gorlos), were the grandmother of all of the Nirun Mongols.

Alan-goa and her sons, the pictures from a official site of Gorlos Banner.

http://www.spongobongo.com/zy9949.htm - http://www.spongobongo.com/zy9949.htm

http://www.spongobongo.com/zy9948.htm - http://www.spongobongo.com/zy9948.htm