Print Page | Close Window

Chinese failure to discover glass.

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34680
Printed Date: 29-Mar-2024 at 12:02
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Chinese failure to discover glass.
Posted By: Maddison
Subject: Chinese failure to discover glass.
Date Posted: 27-May-2014 at 18:21
Given that Chinese technology fell behind that of western europe in the post medieval age what part did the chinese failure to discover glass play in that decline. 
Glass can be used for 
Telescopes
spectacles
magnifying glasses
microscopes


-------------
Denial isn't just a river in Africa



Replies:
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 28-May-2014 at 10:27
Considering the Chinese had mastered the science of Ceramic Glaze Tech, what makes you think they didn't know about glass?
A glaze is glass.  The raw materials are mixed and applied to the surface of a ceramic item, and then fired to melt out temp. 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 28-May-2014 at 10:56
True, but it's not "glass" in the sense refered to.  The Chinese do not appear to have progressed to the science of optics, which does seem a little odd given their scientific curiousity and prowess.

-------------
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 28-May-2014 at 11:12
Originally posted by Mountain Man

True, but it's not "glass" in the sense refered to.  The Chinese do not appear to have progressed to the science of optics, which does seem a little odd given their scientific curiousity and prowess.
 
Not advancing to "optics" is a broad jump from not knowing about glass.
 
Considering they knew how to make glass,[they even knew how to color it] it is odd that they did not advance to optics.  Leaves one wondering are we sure that they didn't.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Maddison
Date Posted: 28-May-2014 at 13:11
The evidence of a wide use of optics in China from the late medieval to the nineteenth century just doesn't seem to exist. What telescopes, spectacles and magnifying gasses of Chinese origin have been found.  In the west the use of lenses and optics furthered scientific progress, that same level of progress seems to be absent in China. Clearly social and political considerations have to be taken into account when investigating this, but the scarcity of optics must have seriously hampered scientific progress.  

-------------
Denial isn't just a river in Africa


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 28-May-2014 at 21:08
If we are to consider what Marco Polo said, in 1270, about elderly Chinese wearing spectacles, then optics were around. As for glass, the Mesopotamians and Egyptians were early in their glass production, but the Chinese were making lead-barium glass by 221 BC. 

-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Maddison
Date Posted: 29-May-2014 at 15:15
Although there have been claims that  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvino_degli_Armati - Salvino degli Armati  of Florence invented eyeglasses, these claims have been exposed as hoaxes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasses#cite_note-16 - [15] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasses#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIlardi2007.5Bhttp:.2F.2Fbooks.google.com.2Fbooks.3Fid.3DpeIL7hVQUmwC.26pg.3DPA13.23v.3Donepage.26q.26f.3Dfalse_13-18.5D-17 - [16]  Furthermore, although there have been claims that  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo - Marco Polo  encountered eyeglasses during his travels in China in the 13th century, no such statement appears in his accounts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasses#cite_note-FOOTNOTENeedham1962.5Bhttp:.2F.2Fbooks.google.com.2Fbooks.3Fid.3DoJ9nayZZ2oEC.26pg.3D119.23v.3Donepage.26q.26f.3Dfalse_119.2C_footnote_c.5D-18 - [17] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasses#cite_note-19 - [18]  Indeed, the earliest mentions of eyeglasses in China occur in the 15th century and those Chinese sources state that eyeglasses were imported.

From wikipedia.


-------------
Denial isn't just a river in Africa


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 29-May-2014 at 18:11
On second thoughts, Maddison, it is hard to distinguish where the claims that Marco Polo found specticles in China on his visit, so I must bow to the font of knowledge that is Wikipedia. However it cannot be said that the premise of this thread, the discussion on no Chinese glass in china by the time period can be justified either.

-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 29-May-2014 at 20:01
Actually, all we "know" is that Marco Polo claimed to have seen Chinese wearing spectacles.  This proves nothing in regards to the origin of those spectacles, if they even existed in the first place.

After all, Marco wasn't the only European visiting the Chinese during all that time.


-------------
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 30-May-2014 at 11:03
Since glass has been made since around 2,000 bce,  I find it hard to believe the Chinese didn't know of it.  However, making the jump from glass to optics is another matter. 
 
The earliest known lenses were made from ground and polished quartz crystal.  The first mention of glass lenses seems to be from around 500 AD.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Sarkir
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2015 at 20:52
Europeans didn't discover glass. It was discovered by middle easterners and then passed onto Europe.

Europeans can't take credit for it they took it from other people.

The Middle east is farther from China than Europe so glass obviously did not spread there easily.


Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2015 at 01:48
The Romans developed glass as an everyday consumer item for tableware & windows..
Strangely they didn't develop artificial lenses, since they did do cataract operations to remove
cloudy natural lenses from human eyes.. so they were aware of their function in eyesight..

I recall hearing that centuries of fine china production meant that glass production was not
regarded as needful in China, & that then cruelled scientific advancements, both due to age related
eyesight defects not being corrected by specs & by chemically inert glass vessels not being in use..


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2016 at 02:46

Marco Polo did not mention reading glasses in China.  What he mentioned were something like sunglasses, to obscure the eyes of the judges, and they were not reading aids.

The Chinese did know about glass, and were able to make some, but not the crystal clear glass required for making lenses.  Glass making was one skill that the Chinese seriously lagged behind the west, and glass making was never very important to them.  The inability to make clear glass would have hampered their ability to make telescopes, microscopes, and reading glasses.  Naturally clear crystals like quartz would be more expensive and harder to shape, discouraging experimentation in the field. 


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2016 at 03:18
Glass in Ancient Egypt:
http://www.historyofglass.com/glass-invention/egyptian-glass/ - http://www.historyofglass.com/glass-invention/egyptian-glass/


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2016 at 03:25
...and Nimrud lens:
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/optics.htm - http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/optics.htm
NOTE: If they were obsessed by space lens were invented than!What did precision they have?


Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2016 at 04:21
Not to ignore the practical use of glass - for vessels in alcohol production/chemical research industries,
Also as weatherproof windows in cold climates, & for transparent protective covers of delicate mechanisms..


-------------
Be Modest In Thyself..


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2016 at 11:47
signaling device in the high, lonely, lonesome and a fire starter if it really is glass.

And the sun is out.

Wonder how long man has been doing that Chinese or other.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2016 at 17:14
The playwright Aristophanes mentioned using stones (burning lenses) in his 5th century BC play the Clouds, and from the way he mentioned it, it sounds like it was an established method even then. The Nimrud lens dates from the 7th century BC, and one of the speculated uses for the lens was for starting fire.

When men first started digging up and using clear crystal for jewelry and other uses is when they probably first noticed the magnifying and fire starting properties, which were probably discovered by accident.



Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2016 at 18:36
Originally posted by Historian

The playwright Aristophanes mentioned using stones (burning lenses) in his 5th century BC play the Clouds, and from the way he mentioned it, it sounds like it was an established method even then. The Nimrud lens dates from the 7th century BC, and one of the speculated uses for the lens was for starting fire.

When men first started digging up and using clear crystal for jewelry and other uses is when they probably first noticed the magnifying and fire starting properties, which were probably discovered by accident.



Fair enough and informative. What I like to see. Your latter para intriguing as I don't recall any data on glass making prior to 3500 BC. Tho... Pliny reports the Phoenicians allegedly discovered it ie. the process... circa 5000 BC; on the Syrian coast.

The caveat of course being that naturally occurring glass was in use much earlier. Eg. Stone age cultures using obsidianites

Here's a good little generic reference:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110415194738/http://www.glassonline.com/infoserv/history.html#5000 BC

Many more detailed can be found thru a search.

Welcome to the fray.


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2016 at 21:50
By "crystal" I meant natural rock crystal (quartz) and natural glass.

Although the Romans could make clear glass, I am not certain they could make "crystal clear" glass, clear enough to make lenses.


Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2016 at 04:13
Is there any research published about the 'clarity' aspects of Roman glass?

Natural volcanic glass 'obsidian' - was of course known & valued from neolithic times, but was any of it 'clear'?


-------------
Be Modest In Thyself..


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2016 at 08:28
I found about Roman glass, where a Chinese poem talks about its clarity surpassing the "purest winter ice". which implies it was very clear.   
http://%20www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Exhibits/WondrousGlass/RomanGlass-Techniques.html - http:// www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Exhibits/WondrousGlass/RomanGlass-Techniques.html

http://www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Exhibits/WondrousGlass/RomanGlass-Techniques.html


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2016 at 16:05
Originally posted by J.A.W.

Is there any research published about the 'clarity' aspects of Roman glass?
Natural volcanic glass 'obsidian' - was of course known & valued from neolithic times, but was any of it 'clear'?


Clear not that I'm aware of....natural glass eg. obsidian...

(tho that's not the only form natural glass might takes; tektites and Fulgurites etc.)...

is anything from black to peacock and geologically defined as translucent and vitreous.

The lighter forms being opaque if not dark...hence fire starting through magnification is out.


Otoh, you can start a fire through friction which Iron ie. sparking But you can do that with a number of minerals to include quartz.

See: http://www.cmog.org/collection/galleries/glass-in-nature

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2016 at 02:52
Thanks guys, one of my favourite furniture items is a stylish 1930s  'Art Deco' black-glass 'Vitrolite' topped coffee table..

( Edit: corrected typo.)



-------------
Be Modest In Thyself..


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2016 at 09:27
Post a pic of that if possible. I'd like to see it. My uncle Jim used to make furniture while going to college and oddly enough tile and marble work as well (which an old timer in the business he worked in, taught him the basics). He almost opened his own shop and then....whoops along came SE Asia in 65.

College and furniture making with on hold.


Years later tho...he still, at age 78, turns a lathe to make stuff on occasion. He used to make miniature cedar chests as gifts. But Parkinson's has creped up and now it's harder.

And if I recall correctly, vitrolite 'toppings' were considerably cheaper than marble toppings and in many cases just as pretty.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2016 at 05:40
Dunno if I can post pix on this forum C.V., but I'll try, in a discreet thread, & if not I'll P.M. you about it..

I have 3 Art Deco 'occasional' chrome/black glass tables, 2 have chrome bezels, one oblong & one is circular, with a single stem/ fluted dome base.. 

..but my fave - is the heavy top cantilever 'Vitrolite' rectangular table, which features a bevelled edge & a hidden wooden central base mount, sprouting a base - which consists of 4 grouped cylindrical tubes that then spread at at 45 - & 90 degree angles from 1/2 way down - to match the table corners for stability.

The 'blackness' of that heavy (~10mm) 'Vitrolite' table top is curiously intense.. glossy glass, yet dark-as..


-------------
Be Modest In Thyself..


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2016 at 19:12
If possible. And the rest sound like some classy stuff. Back in WW2 various gun makers toyed with the idea of a glass stock for civilian weapons as priority was of course for the use of woods by the military.

Glass also became an obvious priority for the same.

What ended up happening was a move, for example, by Stevens-Savage Arms, to use plastics...it was called tenite.

My son has his grandfathers model, seen in the link, to this day.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/921105847/Savage-Stevens-12-gauge-Model-311-Double-Side-by-Side-Tenite-Brown-Plastic-1955-to-1957-manufactured-Good-Condition-22-inch-Cylinder-Bore-C.htm

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2016 at 23:41
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

If possible. And the rest sound like some classy stuff. Back in WW2 various gun makers toyed with the idea of a glass stock for civilian weapons as priority was of course for the use of woods by the military.

Glass also became an obvious priority for the same.

What ended up happening was a move, for example, by Stevens-Savage Arms, to use plastics...it was called tenite.

My son has his grandfathers model, seen in the link, to this day.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/921105847/Savage-Stevens-12-gauge-Model-311-Double-Side-by-Side-Tenite-Brown-Plastic-1955-to-1957-manufactured-Good-Condition-22-inch-Cylinder-Bore-C.htm


Yeah, the Nazis had a thing about ultra-modern style, ( albeit the Luger was earlier, & pretty too)..
& with their MP 40 & StG 44 using steel stampings/plastic grips were way more stylish..
.. than a Sten, or 'Grease-gun' equivalent..

I recall hearing that General Curtis Lemay had so much fun shooting with the the AR 15 that he
ordered the M 16 for the USAAF, & so the then futuristic plastic furniture 'Black Death' got in that way..

Even if the staunch grunts who had to grudgingly hand in their meaty old-school M 14s reckoned
the lightweight 'plastic fantastic' M 16 was.. "Its swell, its made by Mattel." as the toy-ad slogan went..

No doubt you'll have your own hard-earned views on the subject, C.V...


-------------
Be Modest In Thyself..


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2016 at 08:27
My best friends dad worked for Dupont, he brought home the first production model, all plastic, semi auto 22 cal. made by Remington with Dupont plastic. 1961-2.

Most of us had grown up with things like the Mattel "Shootin Shell" series of toy guns. [Yes, a toy gun that actually shot a projectile] the irony is Mattel didn't make the guns from plastic, they were metal. The projectiles were plastic.
They were powered by "Greenie Stickum Caps".



-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: bigtop
Date Posted: 09-May-2016 at 20:39
It depends on your definition of "Middle Eastern". One usually casually defines it as everything from Turkey to Xinjiang to Pakistan to North Africa.


Posted By: hansun
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2016 at 06:03
I think its against our nature to play with glass or want to use it. Especially for the anxious A-type personalities. It breaks, leaving shards everywhere, such that you can't walk around barefooted without worrying. Why go with that over porcelain East Asians typically did not wear shoes indoors, so that is probably why glass never really took off there and did not get attention or much tinkering with.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2016 at 09:30
Originally posted by hansun

I think its against our nature to play with glass or want to use it. Especially for the anxious A-type personalities. It breaks, leaving shards everywhere, such that you can't walk around barefooted without worrying. Why go with that over porcelain East Asians typically did not wear shoes indoors, so that is probably why glass never really took off there and did not get attention or much tinkering with.


My education is in ceramics.  I've seen porcelain shards sharp enough to shave with. During WWII the Japanese used it to make mine casings.

How about - they didn't need to look for anything else, porcelain or stoneware worked just fine for what they needed.


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: renaissance232
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2016 at 03:25
The Chinese civilization, though astonishingly scientifically advanced in many areas, was more focused on the artistic properties of glass as opposed to scientific advancements. There may have been many breakthroughs throughout the Chinese history of glass making, but these were overshadowed by the arts. The Zhou dynasty was particularly involved in pottery incorporating glass inlays. The Western Han tombs also involved glass vessels.


Posted By: amature historian
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2017 at 01:33
The Chinese did know about glass, but the Chinese never used it anywhere near the extent it was used in the West, and in general the Chinese glass was inferior to western glass (I included mideastern glass in when I say "western", since even the Middle East is is west of China, and Europe & Middle East due share a lot of common cultural heritage - Greek philosophers influential in Euripean philosophy also contributed a lot to Islamic philosophers).

The chemical compositiion of Chinese glass was different from western (Roman, European, Islamic) glass, it frequently had a lot of Barium, and sources of I have read talked mention that the importrd glass was more robust than the native glass.  Some claim the different chemical composition of Chinese (and Indian) glass proves independent development, but that might not be the case, since medieval Forest Glass had a different composition from Roman glass, but was not an independent development.  The high quality of Chinese porcelain for  the use of glass for plates and cups may have reduced the incentive to develop better quality glass.

It the Chinese hqd trouble making good quality glass, that would have limited its use.  Another reason I have read is that that Chinese weren't as much into drinking wine, and didn't appreciate the ehancing effect of glass on the appeance of wine.  Although that argument doesn't seem likely, I am pretty sure the ancient Chinese drank wine, even if they did drink more tea.


The inferiority of Chinese glass (more delicate) might have discouraged its wider use among the Chinese, and the Chinese did seem to appreciate the glass they imported from the west.




Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com