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Are Kurds Descended From the Medes?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
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Topic: Are Kurds Descended From the Medes?
Posted By: Angrals
Subject: Are Kurds Descended From the Medes?
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2012 at 15:19
Thu, 19/06/2008 - 20:46
Prof. http://www.kurdistanica.com/?q=node/19 - M. R. Izady

A few years ago, I was given a letter from an American, non-academic individual, asking "Are Kurds descended from the Medes?" I responded as best I could avoiding the myriad of details which might well have diminished rather than enhanced interest in the topic. With the proliferation of printed matter on the Kurds since the Gulf War, this question-or presumption-increasingly arises in the media.

It is also difficult to set aside the political overtones attached to this otherwise academic question. Kurds and the Westerners interested in Kurdish topics--scholars, politicians, reporters, and the general public--have variously attempted to answer what is basically an academic pursuit. Unfortunately, the issue is too often raised to serve a political agenda and a scholarly pursuit. Consequently, this question can no longer be answered without crediting too much or denying too much of the Kurds history-a "history" necessary either to bolster or to deny Kurdish political claims. Apparently, there is an a-priori assumption that if Kurds descended from the ancient and illustrious Medes their claim to an identity, and therefore, to a modern homeland is more valid than would be the case had they simply appeared from nowhere on some auspicious occasion such as the advent of Islam in the 7th century. Admittedly and outside to the field of political gamesmanship, I can only attempt to respond to the question from an academic perspective.

Do Kurds descend from the Medes? Well, yes and no--the same "yes and no" response one might make to the question: "Are Italians descendants of the Romans?" Remember that the Italian peninsula (ancient Etruria) was well populated and boasted a sophisticated civilization before the coming of the Latin tribes who eventually established Rome and fostered what we know as Roman civilization. But they did not stop there. Latin-speaking Romans colonized and settled many lands in Europe and the Middle East. In the process, they imparted their language and many of their cultural traits to the local peoples. Linguistically, in addition to the Italians, the French, Romanians, Catalans, Corsicans, Portuguese, Spaniards (and all of Latin America) also speak Romance (Latin) languages. Thus at least linguistically, not just the Italians, but all these can claim to be the modern Romans.

After the fall of the Roman Empire, many other peoples (primarily Germanic, but Slavs as well) came to settle in Italy, superimposing new genetic and cultural material on what Romans left behind. Some of the most impressive examples of Roman art and architecture are found outside Italy in north Africa and the Middle East. The most important "Roman" thinkers and luminaries also came from outside Italy, from Greece, Spain, Anatolia, Syria…etc. If we were to honor the claim that the Byzantine Empire was in fact the "Eastern Roman Empire," the Greeks and the Anatolians (now Turkified) who spent 1400 years of their history under the "Roman" imperial rule and ran the region for all but 200 years, are more "Roman" than any one else. Italians ceased to be Roman subjects, when they fell outside the sphere of control of Constantinople-the "New Rome", after the 4th century AD.

If we were to call the Italians the modern descendants of the Romans, then it follows that we must also be ready to assume that the multitude of peoples and cultures that were there in the Italian peninsula before the coming of the Roman (Latin) tribes, and those who arrived after the demise of the Romans, all somehow vanished into the thin air. Are not the Italians the progeny of all these peoples and cultures and of the Romans as well? Of course they are.

Well then, are the Italians descended from the Romans? The answer still remains "yes and no." No, because linguistically and culturally, many other peoples share this Roman heritage, not just the Italians. All are equally right to assert that they are the descendants of the ancient Romans. Yes, because the Romans began their career in the Italian peninsula, and only then expanded out to form an empire and to cultivate their culture and language in other places. And when the Latin-speaking Romans were gone, their name and legend remained most tangible and concentrated in the region of their birth: the modern Lazio (ancient Latium), surrounding the city of Rome. On the question of Roman inheritance, Italians are therefore entitled to just a bit more, that which makes them first among equals-or prima inter pares, as a Roman might have put it.

The Italian example illustrates the complications that arise when attempting to apply simplistic questions to complex socio-cultural and processes. A more fundamental flaw in this line of questioning, i.e., Kurdish descent from Medes (or Italians from Romans), emanate from the common assumption that like movies, all peoples and cultures must have a "beginning." Presumably Kurdish descent from the Medes would then place their "beginning" with the reign of the first legendary Median king, Dioces, in 727 BC. But what was happening in 728 BC-a year before Dioces ascended the throne? Where were the Medes? Or were there any Medes before his coronation? Are we to presume that a populous ethnic group, a culture and a language-all appeared miraculously when Dioces decided it was time to crown?

Mesopotamian sources make reference to Medes nearly 500 years prior to this "beginning." Such sources also mention the Zagros and Taurus mountains teaming with other peoples, civilizations and governments with whom Mesopotamians conducted a bustling trade and cultural exchanges, or against whom they warred. What happened to all these sophisticated native populations and states in the area when the Medes "began"?

Median tribes first settled the areas between the modern Hamadan and Kirmanshah in southeastern Kurdistan--the very heartland of Media, and an area that came to be called in the Assyrian record, Medaya, in recognition of this settlement. Medes were a nomadic group who ventured into the Middle East along with other Indo-European-speaking nomads such as the Persians, Armenians, and Afghans. Soon, however, their fortunes eclipsed all others. The Medes first expanded from their heartland in southeastern Kurdistan and their capital, Hamadan (ancient Ecbatana), to cover the Zagros mountains, western parts of the Iranian Plateau and eastern Anatolia. This expanded territory is what the term "Media" meant to classical authors. From here the Medes would ultimately establish an empire stretching from Asia Minor to Central Asia. Their empire was ultimately eclipsed in 549 BC by the rising star of the Medes' cousins, the Persians.

Two thousand years ago, Strabo wrote: "The Medes are said to have been the originators of the customs for the Armenians, and also, still earlier, for the Persians, who were their masters and their successors in the supreme authority over Asia…" (Geography, XI.xiii.9). Strabo further asserts that the Median contributions included the costumes, ornaments, sports, court manners and the mode of kingship (Ibid.). To these Median contributions we also must add religion.

Now, where did the Medes acquire the sophisticated civilization they later passed on to the Persians and Armenians? Surely it could not have been a part of their primitive nomadic heritage that was shared with their fellow nomadic Armenians and Persians. At no time in history have nomads been known for civilized customs or cultural sophistication. And there is no reason to believe the Median nomads who arrived in the Zagros were any different. Most likely, Medes simply inherited the cultures which came under their suzerainty, and in time became their champions. Medes did however bring a language, which matters now, but in all likelihood did not matter then.

Modern Kurds speak a language akin to the Median, i.e., an Indo-European language of the Iranic branch. But so do most other ethnic groups in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Baluchistan. In a more restricted sense, the language of the modern Kurds belongs to a group of languages (Northwest Iranic) which is concentrated, with the exception of the Baluchi, within the territories of old Media. We can only surmise that the Medes also spoke a language of this branch because, except for a few words and proper names, there are no surviving records of the speech of the Medians. What remains can only affirm conclusively the Indo-European, Iranic identity of the Median language-nothing more. But someone must have originated the Northwest Iranic group of languages, and the Medes remain the best, if not the only known candidates to have done so.

But linguistically, the Gilanis, Mazandaranis, Tats, Talishis, and Baluchis, all have as much in common with the Medes as do the Kurds: they all speak Northwest Iranic languages! In fact, the now Turkic-speaking Azeris, if they so choose, can also lay strong claim to the legacy of the Medes. In classical times, Azerbaijan was nearly always included as a part of Media. Moreover, the Azeris became linguistically Turkified only a few centuries ago. Their very ethnic name still remains Iranic.

Clearly, this matter cannot be settled linguistically, even if we knew precisely what the Medes spoke. Too many other ethnic groups share their linguistic past with the Kurds, and presumably all of them with the Medes.

So how about geography or ethnography? Median territories included mountains as well as the neighboring plains. Strabo tells us that most of Media is cold and mountainous, particularly "those mountains which lie above Ecbatana/Hamadan"; but he also recognizes the extension of greater Media into the balmier plains to the east where one now finds the bustling Persian communities and cities such as Teheran and Isfahan.(Geography, XI.xiii.7)

During the period of their ascendancy, all earlier peoples who inhabited the territories that came to be called Media were lumped together and called Medes by outsiders. On the other hand, when Strabo wrote his geography, the ethnic name "Mede" (if it ever had such connotation, particularly after the establishment of the empire), was already dead. Old ethnic names had re-emerged, or new ones had appeared in place of those that died out. However, "Media" as a geographical designator remained. And this geographical designator, like that of Rome after its political demise, kept shrinking until in Islamic times it had receded to were the ancient Median began their expansive careers in southeastern Kurdistan--the area between Hamadan (their ancient capital) and Kirmanshah. Until about eight centuries ago, that region in southeastern Kurdistan was still called Mah (i.e., Media). Like Latium and Rome in Italy--and their special place in the story of rise and twilight of the Romans--what little remains today of the old Medians and the name "Mede," is found densely concentrated in southeastern Kurdistan--the site of the rise and twilight of the Medes. In fact there are still some Kurdish tribes and clans who carry the evolved forms of the name "Mede." Among these are the Meywandlu, Meymand, Mamand, and the Mafi, to name a few. The largest plain in that entire region is still called, Mahy Dasht, "The Plain of Medes."

A composite past is virtually the norm for every old civilization. It would be very strange otherwise. The Persians, Arabs and (though they prefer not to admit it), the Turks--all have similarly composite pasts, as do the Italians and all other peoples and culture that have evolved in these, some of the planet's oldest civilized parts.

Considering this complicated picture, which ethnic groups can claim to be the descended from the Medes? If it mattered--and I do not believe it does--then Kurds along with a few others can make this claim. But like the Italians, who can claim a little bit more of the Roman legacy than the others on geographical and chronological grounds , the Kurds can do likewise in respect to the Medes. For like the Italians, they too are 'first among equals.'

The Medes added nothing of particular cultural value to justify fighting over their inheritance. The civilization and cultural lux ascribed to the elusive Medes they had adopted from the indigenous peoples and illustrious cultures they found already in place when they arrived in western Asia as nomadic immigrants in circa 1100 BC. Kurdish culture, which identifies the Kurdish people, has its native roots in the distinguished legacy of all those who preceded the Medes, but also includes the Medes. Only for a relatively short time did those mountains come to be called Media. And the Medes who settled in the Zagros brought little but they learned much from the local indigenous people with an ancient and sophisticated civilization. Before merging their identity with them, the Medes enriched the local cultures with one more layer of experience and one more addition of genes into their racial pool. And what they left behind after their ethnic name disappeared, continued to evolve through cultures and peoples who came after them, settled in the area and in turn disappeared into the local milieu.

Yes, Kurds as the descendants of the Medes inasmuch as they contributed genetically and linguistically to the formation of what the Kurds are today. No, Kurds are not descendants of the Medes as their civilized ancestors were already in place when the Medes appeared, flourished, and ultimately disappeared. Kurds need not have come at some given date from some other place into their present homeland; indeed they did not. They and their culture are the progeny of an evolution of native inhabitants and cultures of the Zagros-Taurus mountain systems, coming to us from remote antiquity. The addition of a Median ingredient was only one of countless many.

Let us conclude that neither Kurds or any other nation require ad discrete beginning. Only the most fanciful movie buffs can think of the intricate processes of the evolution of nations as one that needs a beginning, and an end.

Source: “Are Kurds descended from the Medes?”, Kurdish Life, Number 10, 1994

 




Replies:
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2012 at 15:48
I enjoyed the article, thank you. It seems well balanced and countering the most lamentably modern practice of using history for variety of political agendas.

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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2012 at 19:19
Agreed. This isn't really my area of expertise, but i enjoyed reading your work. Have you thought about incorporating it into a larger, published work?

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 06:24
Some Kurds descend from the Medes where as others descened from other groups, due to different dialects of Kurdish languages it is very hard to pin point which group descends from which group and the lack of anceint sources does not help either.  


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 06:26
Originally posted by Nick1986

Agreed. This isn't really my area of expertise, but i enjoyed reading your work. Have you thought about incorporating it into a larger, published work?


The article was written by Kurdish historian Mehrdad Izady, who my self am not really fan of.


Posted By: Angrals
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 09:16
Originally posted by Ince

Some Kurds descend from the Medes where as others descened from other groups, due to different dialects of Kurdish languages it is very hard to pin point which group descends from which group and the lack of anceint sources does not help either.  
You cannot really say that, Zazas/Kurmanjis are jsut as Median as Faylees(my tribe) located in South-east of Kurdistan.
 
Yeh thisi s a fairly old article, but I decidied to post it, due to the fact it hasn't been posted before.


Posted By: Angrals
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 09:17
In respect to the article its right, we Kurds don't claim that our ancestors only were the Medes, peoples like Talysh, Gilakis etc.. can also make the same claim.


Posted By: Angrals
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 09:24
The fact of the matter is most of us Kurds believe our ancesors were the Medes. I mean theres no way of uncovering the genetics of the Medes, not unless bodies are found. Although Kurds are quite genetically akin and similar to North Iranians, especially the roups I mentioned earlier, such as Gilakis, Talysh etc.


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 02:59
What about Mitannis? I have believed that Mitanni theory was a common theory in Kurds

CIA map of Kurdistan                                          Mitanni Kingdom

The Kurds as an ethnic group appear in the medieval period. The Kurdish people are believed to be of heterogenous origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-M._Van_Bruinessen_1992._p.122-35 - [36] combining a number of earlier tribal or ethnic groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Median http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-M._Van_Bruinessen_1992._p.122-35 - [36] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-36 - [37] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people - Semitic , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-Kreyenbroek-37 - [38] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-38 - [39] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-39 - [40] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-40 - [41] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people - Turkic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-41 - [42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-42 - [43] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-43 - [44] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-44 - [45] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_people - Armenian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-45 - [46] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-46 - [47] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-47 - [48] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-48 - [49] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-49 - [50] elements. (from vikipedia)

there are also Semetic, Turkic and Armenian origin theories (5-4-6 sources)


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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: Angrals
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 06:06
Originally posted by Ollios

What about Mitannis? I have believed that Mitanni theory was a common theory in Kurds

CIA map of Kurdistan                                          Mitanni Kingdom

The Kurds as an ethnic group appear in the medieval period. The Kurdish people are believed to be of heterogenous origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-M._Van_Bruinessen_1992._p.122-35 - [36] combining a number of earlier tribal or ethnic groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Median http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-M._Van_Bruinessen_1992._p.122-35 - [36] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-36 - [37] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people - Semitic , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-Kreyenbroek-37 - [38] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-38 - [39] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-39 - [40] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-40 - [41] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people - Turkic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-41 - [42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-42 - [43] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-43 - [44] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-44 - [45] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_people - Armenian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-45 - [46] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-46 - [47] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-47 - [48] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-48 - [49] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-49 - [50] elements. (from vikipedia)

there are also Semetic, Turkic and Armenian origin theories (5-4-6 sources)
The Mitannis were just Hurrians ruled by an Iranic upper class. Yes Kurds in Turkey and Iraq have Hurrian ancestry aswell. In a sense our ancestry comes from both Hurrians, Medians, Gutians etc.. I suppose its like any peoples.


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 08:01
Originally posted by Angrals

Originally posted by Ince

Some Kurds descend from the Medes where as others descened from other groups, due to different dialects of Kurdish languages it is very hard to pin point which group descends from which group and the lack of anceint sources does not help either.  
You cannot really say that, Zazas/Kurmanjis are jsut as Median as Faylees(my tribe) located in South-east of Kurdistan.
 
Yeh thisi s a fairly old article, but I decidied to post it, due to the fact it hasn't been posted before.


I did not say Zaza and Kurmanji was a offshoot of Median.  I think actually they are unlikely to be.  Sorani Kurdish is most probably offshoot of Median as it is spoken in the regions of where Medes. 

The name Feyli is believed to come from the name Pahli, the name of the Parthians.

Medes were not the only Iranic group who settled in Kurdish regions, there was also the Parthians and Scythians and Cimmerians.




Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 08:04
Originally posted by Ollios

What about Mitannis? I have believed that Mitanni theory was a common theory in Kurds

CIA map of Kurdistan                                          Mitanni Kingdom

The Kurds as an ethnic group appear in the medieval period. The Kurdish people are believed to be of heterogenous origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-M._Van_Bruinessen_1992._p.122-35 - [36] combining a number of earlier tribal or ethnic groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes - Median http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-M._Van_Bruinessen_1992._p.122-35 - [36] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-36 - [37] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people - Semitic , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-Kreyenbroek-37 - [38] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-38 - [39] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-39 - [40] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-40 - [41] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people - Turkic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-41 - [42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-42 - [43] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-43 - [44] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-44 - [45] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_people - Armenian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-EncyclopediaIslam-27 - [28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-45 - [46] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-46 - [47] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-47 - [48] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-48 - [49] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#cite_note-49 - [50] elements. (from vikipedia)

there are also Semetic, Turkic and Armenian origin theories (5-4-6 sources)


I would not take what Wikipedia says to heart.  There is is pre-iranic ancestry of course, as the Iranians did not whipe out the natives.  

Turkic and Armenian?  Based on DNA Kurds do not show any genetic tie that can be considerd Turkic, as for Armenians their was probably some mixing and Iranization of some Armenians.

Based on Genetics, Kurds are nearly identical to Iranians, which is probably due to combination of the Iranic and pre-iranians ancestry of the region.  


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 12:50
Originally posted by Ince


I would not take what Wikipedia says to heart.  There is is pre-iranic ancestry of course, as the Iranians did not whipe out the natives.  


I am also viki writer in my mother tongue. Yes, it is difficult to completely believe viki. However it opens a door in many cases.

Originally posted by Ince


Turkic and Armenian?  Based on DNA Kurds do not show any genetic tie that can be considerd Turkic, as for Armenians their was probably some mixing and Iranization of some Armenians.


I don't agree. I can't make generalization but I know that there are some Kurds who are descended from Turks and Armenians in Turkey.

Sorry, I will give again viki samples but you can search same thema in your sources

*Some Armenians became Turk or Kurd for save the
compulsory immigration(Turkish:Tecrit) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Armenians - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Armenians


*Küresünni tribe in Iran (Turk origin Kurd people)
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribes - http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribes

And also some Armenians call the Mitanni as Armenian kingdom.


 


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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 13:41
People take sometimes  another citizenship for variety of reasons, nowadays as well as in olden times, there is nothing strange and new to it. Every culture, nation ate, has a flow from others outside of it. We are talking here in general, and all possibilities are to be considered, since they are all in existence in reality.
I never heard of Mitanni being considered Armenian kingdom, it was Hurian, AFAIK.

As for wiki - I think it's very useful, because of all the references that it gives and one can follow, it's like a portal to references. Someone mentioned once something  like "wiki is an aperitif, not a meal" - as with all encyclopedias, it's meant to be the beginning, not the end of a research. I use it a lot to begin a research I know nothing about, to get a hold on references, and to use maps.


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Posted By: Qaradag
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2012 at 15:30
"In classical times, Azerbaijan was nearly always included as a part of Media. Moreover, the Azeris became linguistically Turkified only a few centuries ago. Their very ethnic name still remains Iranic."

I don't want to spoil the actual discussion, but this is written by who?

Azerbaijani Turks did not become "liguistically Turkified" by nomadic Oghuz tribes who had no real advanced culture to able to do such a thing and themselves adopted foreign languages (Turkifying theory are the most absurd one you can find on earth, have anyone heard of a people being linguistically "Mongolified"? Well, it dosen't sound any different really. Nomadic population would be never able to do such thing...). Azerbaijani Turks are formed-up by Oghuz tribes themselves, ethnically.

"Their very ethnic name remains Iranic".

"Azeri" term to describe Azerbaijani Turks was not used before 1936. Today in Iran "Azeri" are rarely used among population, it's "Turk". The language is "Turki". During Russian empire period, ethnic name of Azerbaijani Turks was "Tatar". So usage of "Azeri" as an ethnic term (which is still not used in Republic of Azerbaijan) dates back to 1936, and this was done for political purposes.

Likewise on territority of northern Azerbaijan (republic of Azerbaijan) existed a state and nation called "Albania" or "Caucasian Albania". Now it dosen't means that people there are descendeds of this extint nation...

I simple can't believe how one can write such things...


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2012 at 17:52
Well, people write what they read, we all read different books, do of course we have different info. This is why those forums are such a  great educational opportunity, because one get to hear info that he/she can't never come upon of their own. There is no need for anyone to get frustrated if the info they see here is not what they agree with, we are here to exchange info and POv that are bound to be different.

This said, for all I know Azeri are Turkic, together with language, music, etc; but as for when they became so, I don't know. There is cultural assimilation in all cultures, and the term "Turkified" is a legitimate one, in the same way in which large sections of the Balkans were Turkefied, so we have now Albanians whose language is a mix between Turkish and local ones - the Albanians weren't Turks to begin with, nor Muslims. As about the "Mongolifycation" - I had never heard such a term, but then I had never researched the subject either, so is it possible or not I don't know.


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2012 at 05:09
Kurds are the same Corduchi or Cyrtii people who were mentioned in the ancient sources, there were several Iranian peoples and they were one of them, the important point is that they could preserve their ancient culture but some other ones, such as Medes, Parthians, Sagartians, Sogdians, Scythians, ... lost their ancient culture, in fact most of them were Persianized.

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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2012 at 08:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Kurds are the same Corduchi or Cyrtii people who were mentioned in the ancient sources, there were several Iranian peoples and they were one of them, the important point is that they could preserve their ancient culture but some other ones, such as Medes, Parthians, Sagartians, Sogdians, Scythians, ... lost their ancient culture, in fact most of them were Persianized.


Well yes and no, some Kurds do descend from those people that were reffered to as Carduchians.  For example did Strabos not refer to Carduchians as Parthians?  He wrote that the Parthians were known as Carduchians, it is very odd that he made that connection, but why?  I my self believe it is because the Carduchians were a Iranic people who were similar to Parthians hence why Strabos made the connection it is very probable that they were Scythian as the names of the Kings some say were Scythian like. 

Though western writers have not denied the descent from the ancient kings of Persia which those of the east claim for Ashk or Arsaces they have almost all agreed in describing the Par thianst as originally Scythians or Tartars who ruled over Persia for several centuries There are however several reasons for doubting this fact and Strabo expressly states that the Parthians whose territories were on the Tigris were formerly called Carduchi The geographical position of Carduchia the modern Kurdistan the character of its barbarous and unsubdued inhabitants and their constant hostility t to the kings

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_history_of_Persia.html?id=pRHSgl-4WmwC&redir_esc=y - - The history of Persia: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_history_of_Persia.html?id=pRHSgl-4WmwC&redir_esc=y - - from the most early period to the present time

authors There seems to be considerable doubt however as to its origin Strabo asserts that the Parthians whose territories were upon the banks of the Tigris were formerly called Carduchi the Carduchi inhabited Carduchia the Kurdistan and the character of the Kurds accords remarkably with that of the Parthians The name Parthian probably identical with Parsi or Farsi the inhabitants of the Persian province of Fars

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=St8-AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Outlines+of+universal+history:+in+three+parts%3B+with+a+copious&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nSlrT-6OKePC0QX81s3IBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false - Outlines of universal history: in three parts; with a copious
  - By Joseph J. Reed


Then their are other Kurds who live further away like in other parts of Kurdistan, like the Kurds in Kurdistan province, they probably descend from the ancient Iranians that inhabited that part, their is even still a tribe who call themselves Ard'Alan.   Even in Fars province their is a Kurdish tribe by the name of http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/Kurds/kurdish_tribes.htm - Saqqez who also live in other parts of Iran.   The large Shabankara tribe that inhabited the southern Zagros who's name still survives in the Kurdish tribe by the same name who live in northern parts of Kermanshah.   

I believe Kurds are a mix of different Iranic groups, who adopted the term Kurd.   As the the term Kurd had different meanings pre-islamic era like Nomads.   Unlike other Kurds I do not hold on to the Medes as the ancestors of the Kurds, the Medes were located further east and only Kurds who live in those regions descend from them like some Kurds in Kurdistan province and Kermansheh and also some parts of Iraqi Kurdistan.


Posted By: Qaradag
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2012 at 13:35
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Well, people write what they read, we all read different books, do of course we have different info. This is why those forums are such a  great educational opportunity, because one get to hear info that he/she can't never come upon of their own. There is no need for anyone to get frustrated if the info they see here is not what they agree with, we are here to exchange info and POv that are bound to be different.

This said, for all I know Azeri are Turkic, together with language, music, etc; but as for when they became so, I don't know. There is cultural assimilation in all cultures, and the term "Turkified" is a legitimate one, in the same way in which large sections of the Balkans were Turkefied, so we have now Albanians whose language is a mix between Turkish and local ones - the Albanians weren't Turks to begin with, nor Muslims. As about the "Mongolifycation" - I had never heard such a term, but then I had never researched the subject either, so is it possible or not I don't know.


I just find that unnecesarry, to be mentioned in first place, and to mention something made-up as a fact.

We cannot become "Turkified" because we ARE Turks. "Azeri" name to describe people of Azerbaijan are a very new one like said. I m not sure what you mean by "Albanian example", as these are 2 whole different things...

In Iran today the ethnic designation are Turk and language Turki. Only official designation by state is "Azeri", but that is rarely used among peopl. If we take a look at history of northern Azerbaijan, the ethnich name during Russian empire period for Azerbaijani Turks was Tatar.

Today's Iraqi Turkomans in fact speak a dialect of South Azeri Turkish. I would say that Turkoman is the real name of Azeri Turks, as it was our name during most of medieval times. But later it changed to Turk.

Iraqi Azerbaijanis are still called Turkoman because they were fortunate enough to not become affected by assimiliation policy of Iran or Soviet Union...




Posted By: Qaradag
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2012 at 13:39
The medieval states of Kara-Koyunlu and Ak-Koyunlu, both Turkoman, spoke Azerbaijani Turkish as their language. We know it because we have texts surviving from them. It's Azerbaijani Turkish, and not Anatolian or Central Asian Turkmen. Uzun Hasan's letters in Azerbaijani Turkish survives to this day.

Now there is a direct connection between these states and Azerbaijani Turks...Can someone tell me what kind of connection can there be between Medes and Azerbaijani Turks in this regard? Confused

So I don't understand why some people, instead of facts, stick to fantasy for their liking...


Posted By: AnatoliaMezrabotan
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2012 at 20:41
The Kurdish Aryan race of the Proto-Indo-European
(Aryan: The land of Fire of Zagrosian race)



The bride and groom of kurdish




The bride and groom of kurds



The Kurdish bride and groom



The Kurdish (Median/Medes) dance culture



























The Kurdish holy fire of the Newroz (Kurdish new year) and the kurdish dance culture




The Kurdish girls in national dress of Amed (Median/Medes) or DiyarBakir in North Kurdistan



The face of kurdish women






The kurdish dance culture of two kurdish women


The castle of kurds and the national kurdish dress for women in northern Kurdistan


The kurdish men of kurdistan mountains


The kurdish bride and groom



the face of kurdish girl in traditional dress


The Kurdish Mother and her girls


face of kurdish men

















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ZaraGiyan


Posted By: Alyazia
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2012 at 22:41
yes i was once reading that too
kurds and balochs are the descendants of medes, they both have the same origin that explains why there language is very close to one another
but from their looks; i was also shocked, but from what i also read that they look different because balochs had dravidian neighbours called brahui so they probably mixed with them which gave them their darker complexion then kurds
 
but thats only my research, im not an expert or something Tongue


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(:


Posted By: oxydracae
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2012 at 04:14
Is there any connection between Kurds and ancient Gutians who conquered Mesopotamia in 2214 BC ?


Posted By: Phosphorus
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2012 at 14:26
Originally posted by oxydracae

Is there any connection between Kurds and ancient Gutians who conquered Mesopotamia in 2214 BC ?


Not any connection receiving scientific back up. Only scattered assumptions. But for sure Kurds have been living in the same territory that once Gutians used to settle.


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Quaere Verum


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 19:12
I at all didn't want to destroy your lovely conversation more similar to gossips of old women sitting on bench, however is compelled to cool you and your discussion by the real primary sources.

Juel Oppert:

http://archive.org/stream/OnTheMedianDynastyItsNationalityAndItsChronology1874/Oppert1874OnTheMedianDynastyItsNationalityAndItsChronology_djvu.txt - http://archive.org/stream/OnTheMedianDy ... y_djvu.txt

"THE MEDIAN DYNASTY. 45 

There existed also a neuter form of the verb gin : 

ginnigit ginnigiyut 

ginnikti ginniktip « 

ginrik ginrip 

The substantive verb is da and du. Dtwa or dava, I was ; dus or 
das, he was ; dtwan or davan, I am. 

The Median language has a much greater affinity to the Tatar 
idioms than the Sumerian
; 1 but it forms a separate class together 
with the Susian. I have, for twenty years, paid attention to these 
most difficult texts, and there are a great number of passages now 
easily to be understood by the aid of our scanty Median knowledge. 
My explanations have been laid down in a paper addressed to the 
first Congress of Orientalists held at Paris (vol. ii. p. 179 ss.). "

Moreover, the second Bekhistun record which was was identified always with Medean language, it appeared pure Tatar language. And when I read the glossary of medean language investigated by J.Oppert, found out that all glossary of medean language for 100 % - the Tatar words.





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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 19:19
Originally posted by EN-SZE

I at all didn't want to destroy your lovely conversation more similar to gossips of old women sitting on bench, however is compelled to cool you and your discussion by the real primary sources.

Juel Oppert:

http://archive.org/stream/OnTheMedianDynastyItsNationalityAndItsChronology1874/Oppert1874OnTheMedianDynastyItsNationalityAndItsChronology_djvu.txt - http://archive.org/stream/OnTheMedianDy ... y_djvu.txt

"THE MEDIAN DYNASTY. 45 

There existed also a neuter form of the verb gin : 

ginnigit ginnigiyut 

ginnikti ginniktip « 

ginrik ginrip 

The substantive verb is da and du. Dtwa or dava, I was ; dus or 
das, he was ; dtwan or davan, I am. 

The Median language has a much greater affinity to the Tatar 
idioms than the Sumerian
; 1 but it forms a separate class together 
with the Susian. I have, for twenty years, paid attention to these 
most difficult texts, and there are a great number of passages now 
easily to be understood by the aid of our scanty Median knowledge. 
My explanations have been laid down in a paper addressed to the 
first Congress of Orientalists held at Paris (vol. ii. p. 179 ss.). "

Moreover, the second Bekhistun record which was was identified always with Medean language, it appeared pure Tatar language. And when I read the glossary of medean language investigated by J.Oppert, found out that all glossary of medean language for 100 % - the Tatar words.






What now the Medes were Turks LOL .   Honestly other people should really stop trying to lay claim to the Ancient Iranians.  The Greeks clearly mentioned that the language spoken from Media/Persian to Sogdian was the same langauge with different dialects.  Not forgeting that Persians and Medes  understood eachother, oh wait Persians are also really Turks. Wacko


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 20:27
))) I think that your cheerful spirit will help you to transfer and the following blow:ancient Persians were more black some coal, is more black, than Afro-Semites. Frescos in Persepolis's ruins argue absolutely incontestably: Persians were the negroid people. The language of ancient persian fixed in plates can't be carried to modern Persian or Tajik language. Ancient persian language was Afro-Semitic language. By the way, the modern European languages concerning barbarians - to paleoeuropeans, have the essential general glossary with Afro-Semitic languages. Moreover, both language groups, both Afro-Semitic and paleoeuropean have one general initial afro haplogroup IJ. Modern Iranian language more than for 75 % consists of LOANS from Arab and Sumerian=Tatarian of languages. The Iranian official linguists who have arrived to Kazan with official delegation,  approved it two years ago.

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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 20:36
If it is interesting to someone, I can write a transliteration of words from a breast of this mumifical "companion".Words were written on the Persian option of a cuneiform writing. I assume in connection with presented information that Persians came to the south Mesopotamia together or after Kushitian.         

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzbBctr_2Dk

If you doubt that the Iranian and Tajik languages for 75 % consist of loans from Tatar=Sumerian language, I to you can give in quality of the argument all the interpretations of the most ancient protocuneiform writing on Earth, protocuneiform writings of Sumer.
Smile


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 20:50
Moreover, if you VERY MUCH want to continue to challenge my arguments, I can present you as argument my interpretations of the plates relating to culture of Vinka or Vincha which archeologists stratify in 7000 years! Imagine, and the culture of Vincha-Vinka spoke on Turk=Tatar=Sumerian language.

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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 20:52
Soon as I saw that you claimed the Persians were black, I know you are some Ultra-Nationalist.   Honestly? Old Persians were Afro-Asiatic?. LOL  You are either one of those Afrocentric morons or just a really nutcase Turk.  

Again i will say, the Greeks clearly mentioned that The Medes,Persians were of the same people.  Not only that but language spoken from Mede-Persian to Sogdian and Bactria was the same or as they called the region known as Aria. 

I should not even bother with you as you seem like a wright loon.   You come to the forum and try and insult Iranians by making such idiotic claims. 


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 21:12
Where you saw an insult of Iranians in my message? You consider as an insult what ancient Persians were negroid? It not an insult, it is the Truth. I respect any ethnos and any race on Earth. Why you consider shameful to be Afro-Semite with black skin? On mine,  you  are the racist with infantile thinking. 

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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2013 at 21:28
Originally posted by Ince

Soon as I saw that you claimed the Persians were black, I know you are some Ultra-Nationalist.   Honestly? Old Persians were Afro-Asiatic?. LOL  You are either one of those Afrocentric morons or just a really nutcase Turk.  

Again i will say, the Greeks clearly mentioned that The Medes,Persians were of the same people.  Not only that but language spoken from Mede-Persian to Sogdian and Bactria was the same or as they called the region known as Aria. 

I should not even bother with you as you seem like a wright loon.   You come to the forum and try and insult Iranians by making such idiotic claims. 
You confuse ancient Persian=Afrosemitian to Turkic peoples - Parthian. Parthian were absolutely precisely Turkic peoples with Turkic language. The word Parthian should be transliterated as PARSian=BARSian, and these Barsian from Barsilia - my direct relatives. Names of founders of the empire Medean are the Tatar names: Аkhemen  and his son - Chish-Pish. So your shouts about statements of ancient Greeks the simply DOUBTFUL. Ancient Greeks declared about Barsians and мedean as relative 2500-2000 years ago. Turkic peoples were ELITE of all people of Mesopotamia, India and Eurasia at that time.


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 05:10
Originally posted by Ince

Soon as I saw that you claimed the Persians were black, I know you are some Ultra-Nationalist.   Honestly? Old Persians were Afro-Asiatic?. LOL  You are either one of those Afrocentric morons or just a really nutcase Turk.  

Again i will say, the Greeks clearly mentioned that The Medes,Persians were of the same people.  Not only that but language spoken from Mede-Persian to Sogdian and Bactria was the same or as they called the region known as Aria. 

I should not even bother with you as you seem like a wright loon.   You come to the forum and try and insult Iranians by making such idiotic claims. 

Ince, rude words and insults are not allowed on thos forum. You may disagree with the position of anyone, but you cannot insult his personality. Accusations of nationalism also don't contribute for a constructive dialog. Consider this your warning
DQ


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Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 08:43
Look narrowly more attentively: Lineal descendants of speaking on a Sanskrit now the most dark-pigmented ethnoses - Tamils and inhabitants of Sri Lanka. Some groups in these ethnoses are more black on skin color, than any African. On a gold plate on a breast of a negroid mummy I transliterated an inscription. There obviously ancient Persian language which is related to a Sanskrit. Medieval Persian language was able ALREADY reforms because of influence of Tatar=Sumerian language. And modern Persian language, as well as the Tajik language, are strongly changed thanks to influence of the Tatar language and are KOJNE from Tatar=Sumerian of the glossary! 
On Indo-European, Semitic, Afro-Semitic, Indian, Chinese there are no words of related semantics to the words AR, ER, IR.But in the Tatar language these words the Husband, the Man, the Person mean. Moreover, the words ARYI, ARIA on a Sanskrit were meant by "Stranger", "Newcomer". And one more argument: Sumerian were carriers Turkic haplogroups R1a1 and R1b!!! Precisely also Tatars also remain carriers of this blood still!


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 09:12
I consider Kurds as descendants from Turk=Skuthae and from negroid Semites of Mesopotamia. As proof I will give the following argument:
 1) Kurdish women in the ancient time always independently chose to themselves sexual partners, and preferred always gallant Turkic guys. 
2) The remains of this matriarchy remained at Kurdish families still! 
3) Scythians called this tribe of OJERPATA, OJORPATA
I will decipher this Scythian word from the point of view of the Tatar language: 

OJERPATA=OJERP+ATA.
  
AJERyP = "Separated", "Divided" - in the Tatar language, and witnesses at a pronunciation of this word always hear - OJERyP because vowel sounds A and O in the Tatar language are said is closed. 
ATA = "Father"
OJERPATA=OJORPATA =" Separated fathers"

It means that negroid Kurdish women once and for all separated men from the families, and preferred always Turkic peoples as sexual partners! 


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 09:17
This is all well and good, however I haven't seen any posting of credible, peer reviwed sources for any of this.
En-sze, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 09:37
Zaratushtra - это Сумерское слово, которое я расшифрую на базе Татарского языка для вас, уважаемые любители Истории:

Zara=Sara=SARY="Жёлтый", "Золотой" на Татарском языке.

Tush="Тело","Грудь", "Фигура" на Татарском языке.

TRA=T(u)RA="Вождь", "Предводитель", "Начальник" на Татарском языке.

ZARATUSHTRA= "Одетый в золото предводитель", "Златогрудый вождь".

===================================================

Zaratushtra is a Sumerian word which 
I will decipher on the basis of the Tatar language for you, dear fans of History:
 Zara=Sara=SARY = "Yellow", "Gold" in the Tatar language.
 Tush = "Body", "Breast", "Figure" in the Tatar language.
 TRA=T (u) RA = "Leader", "Chief" in the Tatar language.
 ZARATUSHTRA = "The leader dressed in gold", "Gold Body the leader".




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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 09:43
Originally posted by red clay

This is all well and good, however I haven't seen any posting of credible, peer reviwed sources for any of this.
En-sze, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Specify, please, and in which occasion I should provide what extraordinary proofs to you? Whether you read the works of  J.Oppert devoted to interpretations of languages of Mesopotamia?


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 10:32
Two Questions.
 
1. Are you in reference to Kurds of Modern Turky or Kurds in total located in a variety of regions?
 
2. Your opinion on the Genographic Project?
 
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/ - https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/
 
 
And a bonus question your comments on the following:
 
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1031-4 - http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1031-4


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 10:56
ZaRaTuSTRa=Gossipy arm noises present&presentable(dream and arm)!If it sounds like it this
can help you maybe!Big smileWas he a magician that tells the future?


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 11:04
Do the Folk dances have a pattern:3 steps front&2back and 6 front&3 back,Antalia?


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 14:42
Originally posted by medenaywe

ZaRaTuSTRa=Gossipy arm noises present&presentable(dream and arm)!If it sounds like it this
can help you maybe!Big smileWas he a magician that tells the future?

I do not want to stop your violent and on anything not the reasonable imagination, but I will remind you that images which you try to create, have no relation to psychology (mentality) of ancient people. You use ways of the modern art and modern theater. It is inadmissible by consideration the most ancient names and things. At that time everything was concrete, rough and clear.


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 14:50
Originally posted by medenaywe

Do the Folk dances have a pattern:3 steps front&2back and 6 front&3 back,Antalia?

What you mean about? Write, please is clearer. Probably you mean here these Persian dances which cause feeling of a Homeric laughter in me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HRUCcFZoPg&feature=player_embedded


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 15:08
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Two Questions.
 
1. Are you in reference to Kurds of Modern Turky or Kurds in total located in a variety of regions?
 
2. Your opinion on the Genographic Project?
 
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/ - https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/
 
 
And a bonus question your comments on the following:
 
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1031-4 - http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1031-4
1) I speak first of all about the Kurds having nomadic culture. Regardless of the place of residence, regardless of the accommodation country.
 2) Genografic researches help us to define precisely, when and where great Turkic peoples =Sumerian influenced on to Ethnogenez barbarians of Mesopotamia, Europe, India, China and Africa.
 I write about it surely because initial haplogroup R1 even already 20-28000 years ago was Turkic. The last site which you presented me too will help me, thanks.


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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 15:22
Your welcome. And thanks for your reply.

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: EN-SZE
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 16:54
What means a word KURD? From the point of view of the Sumerian language words EN-GUR  = "Brotherhood", "Community", "People", "Flight of adherents".From the words EN = "Brother" and from the word GUR (t) = "Community","Group", "Tribe", "People". From the point of view of the Turkic languages fixed in the Middle Ages, the word GURT is meant by "Family", "Flight", "Band", "Group". In the Tatar language the word GURT is meant by "Flight", "Group", "Band", "Community", "Family". Concerning nomads always it is necessary to use the concept GURT = "Flight".ONLY.It is meant the pack of wolves.

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In search of Truth we are limited to knowledge tools and consequently our idea of Truth includes also a certain mistake.


Posted By: AnatoliaMezrabotan
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 04:25


Kurdish People (Median/Medes) " The children of the Sun and Fire"

[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du1XxsOWrNU[/TUBE]

Kurdish Luwian-Hittite empire language / History/ Religion

(Kurdî: Shahenshahî Hattî/Lowî yan Ziman/Ziwan / Dîrok / Ol
[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na-ODjROg_4[/TUBE]

The Hattî´s/Hattians "Incoming - have come (Gods)"

That must very good to know, the Kurds have self-nature religion is the sun and fire culture...and here we see the kurds in anatolia Kurdish Hattuşa (Hittites or Hatti/Hattu) Sun lesson of kurds!!! "- why did the Hîttît-Hattîs, the name of the great king turned to its Kurdish name?
- why did the Hîttît-Hattîs, prayers were made in Kurdish?
-why did the Hîttît-Hattîs, why they were singing in Kurdish?
- why did the Hîttît-Hattîs, the gods had their names Kurdish?" Akademîya Selahaddîn Mihotulî /Civilizations of Aryan Kurds (Book)

[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjDQeitat2E[/TUBE]
Derinkuyu Underground City is an ancient multi-level underground city of the Median Medes Empire in the Derinkuyu district in Nevşehir (Kurdish: Nev-New Sher "The New/middle city") Province, Anatolia. With its five floors extending to a depth of approximately 60 m, it was large enough to shelter approximately 20,000 people together with their livestock and food stores. It is the largest excavated underground city in Anatolia and is one of several underground complexes found across Goreme (Kurdish: "Gora Me": our grave) Cappadocia (Qapadozia (Kurdish: secret place).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_Underground_City


PTERIA: Lost City of Kurdish Median/ Medes empire


[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo1V2hojfL8[/TUBE]
The ancient Kurdish city of Pteria was burned, destroyed and abandoned due to the long-running war between the Medes (Kurdish) and the Lydians in central Anatolia.

The Kurdish ruins of the ancient settlement uncovered at Mt. Kerkenes in Yozgat belonged to the lost ancient kurdish city of Pteria Median empire, said the Yozgat Museum in a written statement.

The statement, released by Yozgat Museum Director Mustafa Akkaya to the Yozgat Governor's Office, said the archaeological evidence showed that Mt. Kerkenes is what a Greek historian once mentioned as the lost ancient city of Pteria. Excavations have been ongoing in the area since 1993 by a team led by Geoffrey Summers and Scott Branting, academics at Middle East Technical University.

He said Kerkenes was a first degree archaeological site and the largest Iron Age settlement area in Anatolia.
The founder of the city chose this particular location due to its geographical convenience for defense and travel routes. The administrative, religious and military structures in the city indicate that it was originally established for long-term settlement. But archaeological surveys show that the city was burned, destroyed and abandoned due to the long-running war between the Medes and the Lydians in central Anatolia,” he said.

Noting that the war, also known as the Battle of the Eclipse, between the Medes and the Lydians ended with a solar eclipse on May 28, 585 B.C., which was perceived as an omen that the gods wanted the fighting to stop, he said the ancient city of Pteria was built after the war and that the Battle of the Eclipse actually helped to promote Kerkenes to the world.




Akkaya said Mt. Kerkenes is surrounded by seven kilometers of stone walls containing seven gates that enclose 2.5 square kilometers, adding: “The ancient city of Pteria was invaded many times by the Mede and Lydian empires. Thus, the establishment of the city was never completed.”



[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU2cP28TRDI[/TUBE]

The Kurdish Scythian Language



[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8PuBa__VXg[/TUBE]
Underground City, Cappadocia (Kurdish: Qaba Dizya,Qapadozia or Kapadozia= Secret place)
Goreme (Kurdish: "Gora Me": our grave)

[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk4WiHODBT4[/TUBE]

Kurdish Castle of Median/Medes Empire








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ZaraGiyan


Posted By: AnatoliaMezrabotan
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 04:49

Kurdish folk music " Lo Bra no / Lo Lo" (The Lords of Bothers / The Lord of Lords)

[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgzN0_ezqhs[/TUBE]

The Great Kurdish Median/Medes empire
[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgLOTJkrLos[/TUBE]


The Ahura Mazda's fighters: the Kurds ( Median/Medes) / Kurdistan Zagros-Taurus Mountains
[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIXtNcLWmAs[/TUBE]

Kurdish folk music "Lo Miro" (Immortal Lords)






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ZaraGiyan



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