Steppe Nomads and Central Asia: Karakorum

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Karakorum

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29994
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 22:34
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Karakorum

Posted By: Karalem
Subject: Karakorum
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2011 at 23:52

The Mongols built a city they called Karakorum in Siberia. It was built by hand workers captured by the Khan in the 13th century. It should have been Batu Khan. I am not sure about what it was built with because accounts vary. Who were the people captured, which part of the world they came from? Since it was built in Siberia, it was built on permafrost, but still there should be some traces allowing to identify it today as it is only 7 centuries back. There indeed is archaeological claim for having the city dig out, but there is nothing more than a humble wooden dwelling in place where the city is thought to have been.

Assuming that such capital existed, wouldn't it be easier to think of a place more suitable for it than some far away disconnected place in the middle of nowhere. I am thinking about a modern European city that could have served as the capital of the Golden Horde.

Replies:

Posted By: Snafu
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 08:08

It was in Mongolia, not Siberia.

There's a large model of it at the Ulaanbaatar National history museum, so we can imagine what it looked like based on descriptions and archaeology.

The builders were probably Chinese and Muslims architects.

It was built in that area because that particular region of Mongolia was sacred to Mongolian nomads. Many powerful tribes made their capitals there before the Mongols. The Uighurs built their own capital of Ordu Balik not that far away, several centuries earlier.

Posted By: Karalem
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 15:33

it seems that much of the city, especially the castle and the city walls were built with stone or brick. I can not find any detailed accounts of what the city would have looked like. Were the streets arranged in chess-like-pattern round the castle burg? The dwellings dug out in Mongolia were of wood. I don't think they are the ruins of the fabulous city of Karakorum.

What is the etymology of the name?

Posted By: Snafu
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 23:43

Kharakorum means "black ridge", and that was the name of that region because of the nearby mountains.

The reason the remains were made of wood is because most buildings, even palaces, were made of wood back then. Stone was only used for the walls, bases and for monuments. So there isn't much left of them now.

The city itself was never that spectacular. It was a small town and not very luxurious, except for the Khan's palace. It was described by foreign visitors to Mongolia like the Christian monks John of Plano Carpini and William of Rubruck. It had different areas for different people. There was a Chinese district, a Muslim district, a Christian district, and a Mongolian district with traditional Mongolian tents.

Posted By: Karalem
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2011 at 11:47

Mongols were known to built towns in chess-like-pattern. The castle was built and surrounded with stone walls, then around it there were houses lined along streets, squarely placed and cutting at 90 degree angle to form rectangular grid. There are many modern cities that reflect this pattern.

The original name could also have been Karak. This the name castles were called with in places like Pakistan. It means simply castle. The name church also possibly comes from it.

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 19:30

Karalem: Karakorum was built in Mongolia. The following extract is from The Encyclopaedia Britannica-
"Karakorum, Chinese (Wade-Giles) K’a-la-k’un-lun, also spelled Khara-khorin, or Har Horin, ancient capital of the Mongol empire, whose ruins lie on the upper Orhon River in north-central Mongolia.

The site of Karakorum may have been first settled about 750. In 1220 Genghis Khan, the great Mongol conqueror, established his headquarters there and used it as a base for his invasion of China. In 1267 the capital was moved to Khanbaliq (modern Peking) by Kublai Khan, greatest of the successors of Genghis Khan and founder of the Mongol (Yüan) dynasty (1206–1368) in China. In 1235 Genghis Khan’s son and successor, Ögödei, surrounded Karakorum with walls and built a rectangular palace supported by 64 wooden columns standing on granite bases. Many brick buildings, 12 shamanistic shrines, and two mosques were once part of the city, which also was an early centre for sculpture, especially noteworthy for its great stone tortoises."
For more on this topic, see
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/312072/Karakorum

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 19:36

Originally posted by Karalem

Mongols were known to built towns in chess-like-pattern. The castle was built and surrounded with stone walls, then around it there were houses lined along streets, squarely placed and cutting at 90 degree angle to form rectangular grid. There are many modern cities that reflect this pattern.The original name could also have been Karak. This the name castles were called with in places like Pakistan. It means simply castle. The name church also possibly comes from it.

I don't know what period you're referring to, but the Mongols of ~12th-13th Century didn't build cities at all, much less castles. They lived in "gers" or "yurts" which were cicular tents made of hide with wooden supports. Their were made so as to be easily transportable as the Mongols were nomadic. When it was decided to embark on a major military campaign, the women and children would follow and the gers would be set up in a location convenient to the war party, taking into account availability of grain for their livestock and water.

Posted By: Snafu
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 01:12

Actually there have been some towns and fortresses in Mongolia over the centuries. When the Uighurs ruled Mongolia they built themselves a capital called Ordubaliq and a few other towns as well. After them the Khitans established more outposts in Mongolia to give them direct control over the nomads. Kedun was the largest town of the Khitans. It had a garrison of 20,000 troops. Even the most powerful tribes of Genghis Khan's time, the Keraits and the Naimans, had some permanent settlements. The Keraits had a capital called Orta Balghasun, which may have been the forerunner of Kharakorum. Up in Siberia I think the Kirghiz also had some towns. And during the Mongol empire the Mongols did build some new towns in Mongolia. So yeah, they were mostly nomads, but towns weren't totally alien to Mongolia.

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 20:10

Originally posted by Snafu

Actually there have been some towns and fortresses in Mongolia over the centuries. When the Uighurs ruled Mongolia they built themselves a capital called Ordubaliq and a few other towns as well. After them the Khitans established more outposts in Mongolia to give them direct control over the nomads. Kedun was the largest town of the Khitans. It had a garrison of 20,000 troops. Even the most powerful tribes of Genghis Khan's time, the Keraits and the Naimans, had some permanent settlements. The Keraits had a capital called Orta Balghasun, which may have been the forerunner of Kharakorum. Up in Siberia I think the Kirghiz also had some towns. And during the Mongol empire the Mongols did build some new towns in Mongolia. So yeah, they were mostly nomads, but towns weren't totally alien to Mongolia.

Yes, but the title of this thread is "Karakorum", not Ordubaliq. When I refer to the Mongols, in this context it means during the time of the Mongol Empire, starting with Genghis Khan and probably ending with Kublai Khan or thereabouts.