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Mounted Crossbowmen

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28846
Printed Date: 17-May-2024 at 13:20
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Mounted Crossbowmen
Posted By: agatharchides
Subject: Mounted Crossbowmen
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2010 at 18:33
I've heard a few references to mount crossbowmen, particularly used by the Poles but I can't seem to find anything more substantial. I have to admit I'm curious to know if they operated as dragoons or did they use tatar style tactics and for how long were they in service etc etc. If anyone can give me a basic overview or link to one I'd appreciate it.  Smile



Replies:
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2010 at 18:48
Agatharchides, I would think that any "mounted crossbowmen" would be regulated to "One shot and done!"

Can you provide us with any method that would allow a mounted knight to re-cock and reload any known cross bow from that era?

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2010 at 18:59
Originally posted by opuslola

Agatharchides, I would think that any "mounted crossbowmen" would be regulated to "One shot and done!"

Can you provide us with any method that would allow a mounted knight to re-cock and reload any known cross bow from that era?
 
Mounted crossbowmen appear in Polish army in the 13th century and become more popular in the 14th and 15th century. These were usually the riders who couldnt afford to buy the horse good enough for a knight and served in the army as lighter than knights cavalry, however they could have somtimes use the lance.
It is assumed that during the reign of Casimir the Great in the half of 14th century, the number of mounted crossbowmen was higher than number of knights in the Polish army.
 
Usually the mounted crossbowmen were servants of the Polish knights, who were recruiting them in their own estates and to large extent participating in the costs of their equipment. Their role was to support heavy cavalry. When they have finished shooting, they were participating in hand to hand combat as well.
 
And affcourse their crossbows were of lighter kind compared to those used by the infantry.


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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2010 at 21:52
My dear irritating insect! If I read you correct, then it was no harder to pull back the bowstring whist riding a horse than it was to draw a bow?

Please correct me if I am wrong?

As you know you have my highest regards!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: agatharchides
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 11:15
Thanks mosquito. :) And opuslola, it would depend on the crossbow. Obviously a 500lb draw steel beast takes a winch to cock wouldn't be any good on horseback, but you can make lighter crossbow. A 100lb crossbow is no harder to cock than a 100 pound bow is to fire. And if, as I am understanding it, they stayed still while shooting and then charged themselves, there is nothing particularly impossible about it. 


Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 12:14
Originally posted by opuslola

My dear irritating insect! If I read you correct, then it was no harder to pull back the bowstring whist riding a horse than it was to draw a bow?

Please correct me if I am wrong?

As you know you have my highest regards!
 
As agatharchides    said they were probably pulling the bowstring on standing horses and they had metal tools to do it (i dont know english words for it). They could have ride to shooting range, shoot, pull the bowstring and shoot or withdraw if necessary and come back with crossbow ready to fire.


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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 14:29
OK,why don't we, or why don't I make a few suppositions?

First of all, can we assume that the only advantage of the cross-bow over the bow-and-arrow, is its reported ability to penetrate fully armed knights, whereas regular bows could not! So, to penetrate heavy sheet steel armoured knights, it would seem that the bolt of dart of the Cross-bow, whould have to have a "greater" pull, lets say in the range of 120-160 pounds or more, which is considerably more than almost any bowman in the world could pull and shoot accurately! But, a mechanically or leveraged cross-bow with a 150+ pound pull, could possibly shoot a dart/bolt that could seriously harm even the most heavilly armored opponent! And at a considerable distance! It would have more of the force of a bullet in that regard.

Second, one might well consider that these mounted cross-bowmen, were also armored! That is they could readily ride into range and having heighth (being in the saddle) be in position to shoot armoured knights armed mostly with swords, maces, axes and pikes, etc,! Even those on foot!

Riding mostly outside the main melee', they could shoot and run from their other mounted opponents back to their squires, who were in the process of loading another cross-bow! Since it seems obseenly difficult to crank a cross-bow mechanism whilst mounted, or any other method I have yet to see!

They could do so in relays, so part of their group (of what ever size the unit was), would always be getting re-supplied with loaded weapons whilst the rest of them were shooting, and shooting pretty much out of the range of arrows, pikes, etc.

In this manner they might well be a formidable group?

Regards,

What do you all think of this conjecture?

Perhaps some real information can be found here?

http://www.netsword.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000234.html

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 16:16
The English long bow was, in experienced hands, more than capable of piercing armor.  You just couldn't use it on horse back.Big smile
 
Crossbowmen were considered to be lower than Ant dung by the knights or elite warriors of their day.  An untrained common soldier could do in a well trained well armored and equipped Knight with one well placed bolt.
 
BTW- the Chinese invented a successful version of a repeating crossbow.  It held and could launch a succession of six bolts before reloading.
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 16:19
As did those wild and crazy guys on TV! The "Mythbusters!" Maybe you can see it somewhere?

So, you derided my position in its entirety! With old friends like you who needs enemies?

Perhaps that is why cross-bows were soon replaced with guns?

People of Royalty or Position oft feel the same way, towards those "little people" in the crowd!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 16:30
Red, you also wrote;

"The English long bow was, in experienced hands, more than capable of piercing armor."

Since I have read that the massed usage of the long bow was to place into the air, from long distance, a vast array of arrows designed to rain down upon the massed units of the enemy,then I see little use of them against fully armored knights unless they were within 50 or so yards! As the Spartans said when the Persians said that "they would darken the sky with their arrows", the Spartans merely said, "Then we will fight in the shade!"

Just why do you think that something like that was said? Are you not a reader of these classics? Or do you just ignore them? It is certainly easier to displace or ignore arrows falling with just their own weight from the sky, with heavy armor upon the head, breast and shoulder areas! Also, these present a very smaller target!

So,please provide your proof? Old man!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 16:34
Oh! And just why could one not be able to use the Long Bow from Horse back? Horses are very tall! Bows can be shot holding them in a horizontal manner, etc.!

So, again please show your proofs?

I dare to say that you gave my earlier post more than a passing, before you hit the reply button!

"No soup for you!"

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:48
Originally posted by red clay

The English long bow was, in experienced hands, more than capable of piercing armor.  You just couldn't use it on horse back.Big smile  
 
 
Aye, capability of english longbow to pierce the armour was proved to be a myth.
 
[TUBE]D3997HZuWjk[/TUBE]


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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 18:13
Thanks my irrating insect friend! I knew you would come thru! Thus the old accounts of armored knights being covered with "darts" and un hurt, might well be true? Notice that the shaft of the arrow broke upon impact, and even if a barbed arrow managed to penetrate the armour, only a part of the shaft might have remained!

But Mosquito, does your archive of great events, show what happens if a "bolt" or "dart" from a cross-bow were to hit the same target from the same distance which in the Video was said to be 20 metres!

You must notice that earlier I had posited the dangerous zone for a plate armored knight to be harmed by a long-bow as being within 50 yards! Perhaps, I was too conservative? NOOO! Not me!

Thanks again Mosquito, and just what do you other experts have to show us?

What about it Red?

Please try some raw steak upon that black eye you must now have!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 09:26
I've seen that show.  I've seen several shows where they attempt to disprove the Longbow's abilities.  I can only relate that which I know to be true.
 
 
Battle of Agincourt- St. Crispin's Day, Oct. 25, 1415,
 

The English had a total of 6,000 - 1,000 men-at-arms in heavy steel armour from  head to toe and 5,000 lightly armoured men with longbows, he said.

The French  had 10,000 troops, each with an attendant servant who could also fight, plus 4,000 men with crossbows and other fighters – totalling more than 24,000.

As French lines broke down under volley after volley of arrows and panic set  in, English archers killed thousands by stabbing them in the neck, eyes,  armpits and groin through gaps in their armor.

 Clifford J. Rogers,  professor of history at the U.S. Military Academy at West  Point,

I don't know about gaps, what I do know is that excavations at the place of battle has turned up enough armor with arrow holes in them.


 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 18:04
First of all, do you or anyone really trust the source(s)? Secondly, there are some historians that question your conclusions, and instead insist that the armored French kinghts were basically caught in a bog of mud, that kept them from advancing, and made them especially "targets of opportunity" for the English!

In other words, they became "sitting or standing ducks!" Overheated inside their thick armor, they lost most of their strength and literally passed out or gave up! This made them easy prey for those with thin knives, or daggers, etc.!, who, while disposing of their cross-bows, began to disassemble those stuck knights in the mud, with daggers and knives!

The same result has a past history, where similar kinghts were easily dispatched, even if they were mounted, when the conditions of the ground made progress impossible as well as taking the opposite course and retreating!

Of course we are oft told that these hard headed knights never even thought of retreat!

Correctly spelled "disassemble!"

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 21:10
Originally posted by opuslola

First of all, do you or anyone really trust the source(s)? Secondly, there are some historians that question your conclusions, and instead insist that the armored French kinghts were basically caught in a bog of mud, that kept them from advancing, and made them especially "targets of opportunity" for the English!

In other words, they became "sitting or standing ducks!" Overheated inside their thick armor, they lost most of their strength and literally passed out or gave up! This made them easy prey for those with thin knives, or daggers, etc.!, who, while disposing of their cross-bows, began to disemble those stuck knights in the mud, with daggers and knives!

The same result has a past history, where similar kinghts were easily dispatched, even if they were mounted, when the conditions of the ground made progress impossible as well as taking the opposite course and retreating!

Of course we are oft told that these hard headed knights never even thought of retreat!
 
Iv read the similar description of the battle explaining how the English did win.


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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 22:34
Originally posted by opuslola

Oh! And just why could one not be able to use the Long Bow from Horse back? Horses are very tall! Bows can be shot holding them in a horizontal manner, etc.!

So, again please show your proofs?

I dare to say that you gave my earlier post more than a passing, before you hit the reply button!

"No soup for you!"
 
 
Oh I would imagine you could shoot a longbow from the saddle, at least once or twice before someone got you.  The average English Longbow was between 6 and 8 feet long.  Arrows averaged 30-36 inches in length.  You try nocking a shaft and putting a full pull on the bowstring[to your cheek]  All while holding the bow horizontal and at attack gallop.  The Japanese made an art of mounted archery, and there recurve bow was less than 4 feet.  I don't think you could get a full pull without the leverage of standing.
Besides,  The longbow's value would be wasted.  It's value is in the effects of massed archers.
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2010 at 22:44
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by opuslola

First of all, do you or anyone really trust the source(s)? Secondly, there are some historians that question your conclusions, and instead insist that the armored French kinghts were basically caught in a bog of mud, that kept them from advancing, and made them especially "targets of opportunity" for the English!

In other words, they became "sitting or standing ducks!" Overheated inside their thick armor, they lost most of their strength and literally passed out or gave up! This made them easy prey for those with thin knives, or daggers, etc.!, who, while disposing of their cross-bows, began to disemble those stuck knights in the mud, with daggers and knives!

The same result has a past history, where similar kinghts were easily dispatched, even if they were mounted, when the conditions of the ground made progress impossible as well as taking the opposite course and retreating!

Of course we are oft told that these hard headed knights never even thought of retreat!
 
Iv read the similar description of the battle explaining how the English did win.
 
 
 
No doubt written by the French.Big smile
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: AlphaS520
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2012 at 00:35
Mounted crossbows have much smaller crossbows, how did you come to the conclusion that they are still equipped with decent crossbows? They need to load the crossbow, the smaller the better, similarly to the carbine cavalries, with down-sized firearms.

About the penetration of the Longbow:

"[My yeoman father] taught me how to draw, how to lay my body in my bow ... not to draw with strength of arms as divers other nations do ... I had my bows bought me according to my age and strength, as I increased in them, so my bows were made bigger and bigger. For men shall never shoot well unless they be brought up to it.
—Hugh Latimer."

Tell me the men in the video was trained from childhood, otherwise, I can't be convince that the penetration of the Longbow was just a myth.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2012 at 19:13
The dragoon and mounted crossbowman has one big advantage over footsoldiers: he can discharge his weapon, ride out of range and reload for a second attack

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: sststr
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2012 at 13:03
The Japanese had a longbow specifically for use from horseback - the daikyu.  It's designed differently from an English longbow, but it certainly is possibly, given the right design, to use a longbow from horseback.

As to why someone would use mounted crossbows versus mounted archers, the qualities of the crossbow themselves make it readily apparent: 
1) crossbows require minimal training to use compared to a longbow;
2) the trajectory of a crossbow is basically flat, while a bow needs to fire in a high arch if the shot is to cover any significant distance.  The crossbow is more or less a point and shoot type of weapon (see also #1 above);
3) the flat trajectory and firepower of a crossbow bolt allows it to be used more effectively in bad weather conditions where bows and arrows would be rendered useless;
4) bolts could be loaded and held at the ready indefinitely.  A nocked arrow can only be held for just so long

Even if a crossbow designed for mounted use has to be small enough to be no stronger than a bow, thus giving no special advantage for range or penetration, the above to qualities could be enough to justify the existence of such a troop.

And because wikipedia is such an awesomely reliable source Pinch it appears the Germans used mounted crossbow troops to fire a single volley at close range before drawing swords and charging.  While a short range volley like that might be pretty effective in terms of dealing damage, since it's a single shot volley, the effect was presumably more psychological than anything else.




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