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Socrates

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Rate Scientists and Thinkers
Forum Discription: Talk about the scientists and thinkers and rate them!
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27899
Printed Date: 27-Sep-2022 at 04:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Socrates
Posted By: M.Scaevola
Subject: Socrates
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2009 at 16:45
Well, he really doesn't need an introduction. I'd be interested to hear the justification behind your various ratings, and will abstain from voting myself.



Replies:
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2009 at 17:46
I cannot cast a vote, because he may well be but a figment of the imagination? Please note this sentence from Wikipedia;
"..the 'real' Socrates, like many of the other Ancient philosophers, remains at best enigmatic and at worst unknown."

You see, there exists no real evidence of his existance other than the word of one "Plato!"
So, I will nominate the personages who may or may not have been "Plato!"

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: M.Scaevola
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2009 at 03:10
Uh. Not really. First of all Plato is not the only one who refers to him, the other major source being Xenophon, and scholars all pretty much agree that Plato's rendering of "The Apology" was more or less true to the spirit of Socrates (it had to be, since there were hundreds of people who witnessed the trial). No one doubts that Socrates existed, and it's also clear that he had a specific influence on Athenian philosophical thought. 


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2009 at 17:36
"Readers of Plato often find this work dull, considering it lacking both philosophical substance and the literary charm they have come to expect from Plato. Nevertheless, how Xenophon depicts Socrates in this work and his three more traditional dialogues requires great attention to the question: Who is Socrates?"

The above from Wikipedia. I forgot to enter the address; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon)

So, just why is Socrates to hard to find? Two students and it seems they describe two Socrates?

But, I could, of course, be wrong!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 20:16
Every student has a different view of their teacher and as rival philosophers they would both want to portray a well known philosopher like Socrates as being of the same mind as them so as to strengthen their own standing.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 20:31
Originally posted by p,c,ma

Every student has a different view of their teacher and as rival philosophers they would both want to portray a well known philosopher like Socrates as being of the same mind as them so as to strengthen their own standing.


And, by what sorcery do you delve your above answer?

Not saying you are wrong, but I would like to know how you came to such an answer?

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 20:46
Im still in high school and have much to learn but i know a few things one is that if you take two students who like the same teacher itll usually be for different reasons much less if one likes and one dislikes, and the other thing i know is that all people especially philosophers and politicians are oppertunist.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 20:55
Thanks! That was a nice and honest response, and your response above was not really bad!

Keep up the good work, and especially the honesty that comes with good scholarship!

Oh! Just work on your spelling! Laugh!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 21:50
thanks i'll remember that

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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2010 at 21:58
Naah!  Just do what Opus and everyone else, including me, does and use a spell checker.  I strongly suspect Opuslola of using a punctuation and structure checker as well. [I don't use.] 

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 07:24
Thanks.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 11:22
While I should write my responses in a "Word" program of sometype, I rarely do so! Usually, when I find a word I cannot remember how to spell correctly, I just use the search engine, and type my tries until I find the correct spelling, other wise I reach for my dictionary!

As regards my punctuation, I am oft accused of over punctuation! I tend to use commas way beyond what anyone raised in the last 40 years or so would use them. I have even found that school textbooks used by my Step Daughter, who is exactly 30 years younger than am I, were very hard for me to read and comprehend because of the lack of punctuation used at that time! I have actually had to place my own commas, etc., in the textbooks, to make them readable!

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Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 16:27
Lots of slang words are actually, slowly becoming useable words. Gonna is actually useable now.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 17:36
I'm gonna be watching you!

Look, I was born and raised in the South, so we have numerous slang terms for things, that are not oppenly known to the rest of the world!

That is, unless you watch a certain Southern comedian?

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Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 21:55
Hey im just quoting my english teacher, and Im from the south too.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 22:00
I was merely referring to Jeff Foxworthy, and other Southern comics!

Thanks,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2010 at 22:01
Ron White is dirty but a little bit funnier.

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Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 09:51
Originally posted by opuslola

I cannot cast a vote, because he may well be but a figment of the imagination? Please note this sentence from Wikipedia;
"..the 'real' Socrates, like many of the other Ancient philosophers, remains at best enigmatic and at worst unknown."

You see, there exists no real evidence of his existance other than the word of one "Plato!"
So, I will nominate the personages who may or may not have been "Plato!"


LOL


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 16:14
I am so glad that you were able to enjoy my above comment! Perhaps you will enjoy a lot more of them?

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 17:08
Originally posted by opuslola

I am so glad that you were able to enjoy my above comment! Perhaps you will enjoy a lot more of them?

Regards,


How many experience points do I get if I defeat a troll like you?? LOL

In all seriousness, you were joking in your previous post?


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 18:07
Have you ever had a heart attack?

So far, since you entered this site with a determined anti-Ron, syndrome, there will be no points awarded to you!

Since it seems you are the one with only a few posts! Unless you are a troll from the old site?

So just who/whom are you?

Regards come with your future responses!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 01:52
Originally posted by opuslola

Have you ever had a heart attack?

So far, since you entered this site with a determined anti-Ron, syndrome, there will be no points awarded to you!

Since it seems you are the one with only a few posts! Unless you are a troll from the old site?

So just who/whom are you?

Regards come with your future responses!


Ohh don't be cruel LOL
Opuslola, say many things with few words and not the opposite Wink
I still want to believe that you were joking about Socrates.

What's the other site, do they got cookies there?


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2010 at 20:40
Actually I consider that Plato was really Pletho / Plethhon, who had an academy in Florence in the middle ages!

And, that is being as serious as a heart attack!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2010 at 19:00
Please tell me your joking.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2010 at 23:53
Joking, just whom would joke about such an idea?

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2010 at 17:13
Socrates name was used directly by Plato in his Republic, among other writings.
How do you explain such a use with your theory.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2010 at 18:22
So, since a man of the Middle Ages, "reportedly" used the name "Socrates" in his reported works, are we or, are you supposed to go head long and believe it?

Just find me one original work of either?

Or just find me one "original" work of any of the supposedly ancient Greeks?
Bet you cannot?

Did you know that Plethon also supposedly?, wrote just such a tract?

Just why would you expect to find out so much personal information about very ancient personages, but then find out that relatively newer personages have very little background, if any at all?

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 20:03
To be blind to the truth and see only conspiracies is your choice not mine.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 22:54
Ok, the University of Tennessee cut their basketball coach's salary by a great deal! Was it their decision or the coach's?

Or was it a conspiracy?

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 03:01
I didn't rate Socrates as genius because I don't believe it took a lot of knowledge to do what he did.  I rated him as great because he made an important difference,  He moved popular thinking away from superstition and in the direction of rational reasoning.  Aristolte being a student of Plato who was a student of Socrates.  Aristotle advanced us on the path of rational thinking and science.   Aristotle was a teacher of Alexander the Great, and he spread Hellenism. 
 
It is Aristotle's concept that our goal is happiness and that we achieve happiness by fulfilling our function to reason.  This later is written in the US Declaration of Independence as our unalienable right to puruse happiness.   And it comes up in our constitution as a protected freedom of speech.  So, it could be said Socrates played an important role in putting us the path for democracy.  I think that qualifies Socrates a great man, because he created this path of logic.   
 
I especially like what Socrates did to our understanding of morals, which is essential to democracy.  As you all know, this is my favorite subject.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 07:29
Dear p,c, ma! (which I have deciphered as "Politically Correct Mother?", to read more about my identification, I would suggest that you proceed to the alternative section of this site! Since my ideas (which are not my original ideas) can be legally presented.

I will entitle my post (and the circumstantial evidence) there under the title Plato,or Plethon or Plotinus!

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 18:37
So! Deathless and P,c. ma, under what bridge are you both now hiding?

I am but a toothless troll, by the way!

But, I might well "gum" you guys to death?

As a famous movie once said; "come out, come out where ever you are?"

Wizard of Oz! The good witch calling to the munchkins!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 18:53
The bridge of the obvious truth, not the bridge of conspiracies that you like so much.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:17
And p,c.ma, just what conspiracies are you referring to? And just why would I like them?

Tough questions for a fellow Tennessean!

Yes, I was born and raised in Tennessee!

But, I am not a UT fan, by any means!

You are surely a person of few words!

"Do not be afraid, for I will be with you for ever!" Biblical!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:29
I am merely a man of philosophy.
 
And as to the conspiracies you are suggesting that Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, and Macus Aurelius (among many others) were referring to a myth not a man.
 
Which is something I refuse to believe.
 
By the way I dont like UT either.
 
P.S.
 
I do like the Predators.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:48
But, I do not suggest anything like that! "Your philosophy eludes me" or some words to that effect?

No, I merely suggest that the real Plato was actually as historians today call him "a man of the middle Ages", ergo G. G. Plethon!

You can read my entire small posts on this subject if you actually look at the main site, and look under "alternative history!", where you will see all of the names of this man mentioned!

The other figures you mention are either figments or they are nicknames of other personages of the same age!

So read it and either "weep" or cry "wee, wee, wee all the way home?"

But, you show the "orange" so boldly in your background photo!

Regards,and go Predators!

http://predators.nhl.com/

Another Ice Hockey nut!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:55
I read it, see what your getting at, but its still just a theory and you have no proof.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:20
In court one can be convicted based upon the weight of circumstantial evicence! And, mostly all of our history before the use of the printing press, has been based upon less!

In actuallity it was mostly based upon ancedotal material!

As one poster here made clear; "the plural of ancedote is not fact!"

Just check out the circumstantial evidence I presented there? It is pretty heavy is it not?

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:29
Circumstantial evidence says Aal Capone was innocent.
 
That the Egyptians and Aztecs were assisted by aliens.
 
There is a reason our courts dont accepy circumstantial evidence.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:42
But, the courts do accept it!

Please see;

http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/circum-evidence.html

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c342.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article3883297.ece

Sorry, I am a retired Federal Agent! And my step son is a practicing attorney at Law! I am sorry he has not yet mastered his trade and continues to merely "practice" it!

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Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:44
Ah, then I am truly outmatched, and in the old honorable way of the past I give you my sword.
 
 
Yol bosun-may there be a road


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:48
No, you are not outmatched in any manner! Keep up the good fight if you really believe in your words!

I am not a vengeful person, I am merely a god!

Please continue to challenge me or anyone else on this site anytime, and any place!

It has been a real pleasure to converse with a gentleman or sorry, a gentle woman!

You are a "ma" aren't you?

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:53
No im a guy i dont even know what p, c, ma is it was something they gave us in school the day I made this.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 20:58
Thanks for the honesty! You will be a very good ?, what ever you decide to become!

Come and speak your very good mind again anytime!

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Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 10:05
Originally posted by opuslola

So! Deathless and P,c. ma, under what bridge are you both now hiding?

I am but a toothless troll, by the way!

But, I might well "gum" you guys to death?

As a famous movie once said; "come out, come out where ever you are?"

Wizard of Oz! The good witch calling to the munchkins!


(>^_^)> *hugs opuslola*
History isn't really your thing... It's ok, we can still hope for you.

γνώθι εαυτόν


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 11:02
Originally posted by Deathless

Originally posted by opuslola

So! Deathless and P,c. ma, under what bridge are you both now hiding?

I am but a toothless troll, by the way!

But, I might well "gum" you guys to death?

As a famous movie once said; "come out, come out where ever you are?"

Wizard of Oz! The good witch calling to the munchkins!


(>^_^)> *hugs opuslola*
History isn't really your thing... It's ok, we can still hope for you.

γνώθι εαυτόν
 
 
You can fool some of the people some of the time............................................
 
Hehe, looks like they have your number.
 
BTW- If you guys are trying to figure out where Opus is coming from, check out Anatoly Fomenko.  Opus is our resident "Fomenko Dancer".
When Opuslola told Fomenko that he had purchased his book, Fomenko replied, "so your the one".
 
Big smileTongueBig smile
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 11:16
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Deathless

Originally posted by opuslola

So! Deathless and P,c. ma, under what bridge are you both now hiding?

I am but a toothless troll, by the way!

But, I might well "gum" you guys to death?

As a famous movie once said; "come out, come out where ever you are?"

Wizard of Oz! The good witch calling to the munchkins!


(>^_^)> *hugs opuslola*
History isn't really your thing... It's ok, we can still hope for you.

γνώθι εαυτόν
 
 
You can fool some of the people some of the time............................................
 
Hehe, looks like they have your number.
 
BTW- If you guys are trying to figure out where Opus is coming from, check out Anatoly Fomenko.  Opus is our resident "Fomenko Dancer".
When Opuslola told Fomenko that he had purchased his book, Fomenko replied, "so your the one".
 
Big smileTongueBig smile
 
 


Wait, opus isn't a gremlin??


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2010 at 15:36
"Wait, opus isn't a gremlin??"

Why yes I am a cute fuzzy little gremlin, just don't pour water upon me?


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Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 05:44
Who's Fomenko.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 06:33
Answer;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko

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Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 11:54
Originally posted by opuslola

"Wait, opus isn't a gremlin??"

Why yes I am a cute fuzzy little gremlin, just don't pour water upon me?


Then flaming is acceptable?

Spend some time to read Aristophanes.
I assume you know how to read Ancient Greek.


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 12:08
That guy is insane, please don't tell me you believe all that.

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Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 13:52
Originally posted by p,c,ma

That guy is insane, please don't tell me you believe all that.


opuslola or Aristophanes? hahaha


Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 16:51
No, Fomenko.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2010 at 18:21
Yes deathless, you can flame me all you want!    
But it will not change the Fomenko suppositions!

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Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 16:40
What about the archaeology, are you going to say their all wrong.

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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2010 at 19:40
Archaeology does "their" job (note not they're!) according to the currently accepted history!

No historian (believing in the currently accepted history) could ask for more!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: DeborahMMoss
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2011 at 12:07
[QUOTE=opuslola]I am so glad that you were able to enjoy my above comment!  thats all..........ClapLOL
Cry....................



Posted By: p,c,ma
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2011 at 07:40
That doesn't answer for the chronology that comes along with carbon dating.

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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2011 at 08:18
You just made The Mistake!!!No carbon dating please!
   Agree with Opuslola without c14 dating that this person was virtual one and part of international world conspiracy as most of the history!?!Wink


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 18:06
It just seems funny that a few chronologists from the 17th century C.E. or even earlier, also set up time-lines, which were later updated in the 19th century, or well before anyone had ever thought about 14C.

But, strangely, when this so called new science first came out, its dates differed with the currently accepted time line, which in some cases was considered by historians to be correct to within a few years in either direction, the 14C dates seemed to point to differences of numerous years, however.

So, respectible historians and archaeologists poo-pooed this science as worthless, but non-the-less, the 14C crowd again began to skew their results, and suddenly the 14C dates started to agree with the dates already set into stone by the historians, etc..

It was basically, only when material from Malta was 14C tested, and found to be older than the Egyptian material, that the old powers, were set upon thier behinds in wonder. That they had begun to give tacit approval to various 14C tests that came closer to the old accepted dates. And via this tacit approval, the dates of Malta, then became accepted, which gave the 14C crowd something to crow about.

Since all of this stuff began, the 14C crowd has constantly skewed and changed their testing proceedures, at the whim of dismay from the rulers and movers and shakers of the accepted time-line.

You may even note that in but a few cases, the time-lines that existed before 14C testing, has changed but very little since the 14C crowd also found reliable supporters, who revelled in a new science that would support their formally un-supported views of the past.

I shall halt my rant here since I feel I have said quite enough already.

Regards,

Ron

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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:22
Originally posted by Deathless


Originally posted by opuslola

I am so glad that you were able to enjoy my above comment! Perhaps you will enjoy a lot more of them?

Regards,
How many experience points do I get if I defeat a troll like you?? LOLIn all seriousness, you were joking in your previous post?


LOL - now be nice!!
Plato is a major source but we also have

A.    Aristophanes the clouds but a distorted due to the demands of comedy

B.    Historian Xenophon- provided memorabilia- from direct contact W/ Socrates. – provides some verbatim extracts from his trial.

Plato’ work called the dialogue – records conversation between him and Socrates- where Socrates is a dominates the conversation.

Divided into three groups: Early, middle and late dialogues

Socrates appears in most dialogues but Plato’s views predominate in middle and late dialogues. Plato saw Socrates as a hero –

He is presented as someone who live for philosophy itself, searching for the truth w/o any regard for material gain, in the end dying for his beliefs.

From my notes since I will teach about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle this week.



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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:30
Originally posted by opuslola

I cannot cast a vote, because he may well be but a figment of the imagination? Please note this sentence from Wikipedia;
"..the 'real' Socrates, like many of the other Ancient philosophers, remains at best enigmatic and at worst unknown."

You see, there exists no real evidence of his existance other than the word of one "Plato!"
So, I will nominate the personages who may or may not have been "Plato!"


I would not consider Wikipedia a good source but you have a right to whatever theory you want to believe Ron.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:36
''From my notes since I will teach about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle this week''
 
 
I might sneak in and audit that one EC..... cuz last I recall the ole guy drank hemlock cuz the city fathers didn't like him anymore....ya I know..... been out of touch with that stuff for 40 years...no excuse.Embarrassed


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:49
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

''From my notes since I will teach about Socrates, Plato and Aristotle this week''


 

 

I might sneak in and audit that one EC..... cuz last I recall the ole guy drank hemlock cuz the city fathers didn't like him anymore....ya I know..... been out of touch with that stuff for 40 years...no excuse.Embarrassed


He was accused of corrupting the youth- a trumped up charge!
Also showing disrespect to the gods.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2011 at 20:54
LOLOh hell...I could have been charged with that when I was 15....up on the Llano. For that matter any current corrupt US poli, of any agenda, could be as well.Wink 
 
Nice to chat with you again.
 
CV


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2011 at 01:46
I am editing to better tie my comment with what others said.  I would not say questioning the gods is a trumped up charge, and Socrates most certainly questioned the gods.   In the past we would call talk like this heresy and the church had its way of dealing with heretics!   In modern times we have fundamentalist Muslims acting upon religious notions, in dramatic ways.   We might want to be appreciative of what our forefathers achieved when they created a nation of religious freedom with protected freedom of speech.  I would say, Socrates, gave his life for this cause.   The ultimate sacrifice for truth, so the gods must love him.  

I consider Socrates' arguments very important to the US culture we are forgetting.   He strongly influenced education in the US and our forgotten understanding of morality.   He offered us something better than superstition, and I prefer his offering to religion.   Surely he did not stand alone in turning us from superstition to reason, but through Plato, he is a major player in this turn, and this makes him essential to the understanding of democracy.   If it were not for Plato, Socrates would have died with his body, and maybe we never would have experimented with democracy- rule by reason, because the line of reasoning for it would have been lost.  


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2011 at 16:45
Originally posted by Athena


I am editing to better tie my comment with what others said.  I would not say questioning the gods is a trumped up charge, and Socrates most certainly questioned the gods.   In the past we would call talk like this heresy and the church had its way of dealing with heretics!   In modern times we have fundamentalist Muslims acting upon religious notions, in dramatic ways.   We might want to be appreciative of what our forefathers achieved when they created a nation of religious freedom with protected freedom of speech.  I would say, Socrates, gave his life for this cause.   The ultimate sacrifice for truth, so the gods must love him.   I consider Socrates' arguments very important to the US culture we are forgetting.   He strongly influenced education in the US and our forgotten understanding of morality.   He offered us something better than superstition, and I prefer his offering to religion.   Surely he did not stand alone in turning us from superstition to reason, but through Plato, he is a major player in this turn, and this makes him essential to the understanding of democracy.   If it were not for Plato, Socrates would have died with his body, and maybe we never would have experimented with democracy- rule by reason, because the line of reasoning for it would have been lost.  

that is possible


Many scholars believe the charges were false and mainly used for political motivation. The source I have used is from Oxford University Press. But, we were not there so all anyone can do is speculate.

Comparing Islam to this scenario is like comparing apples to onions; although, it is a possible theory.


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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 23-Mar-2011 at 11:41
Yes, I know it is popular to say the charges were trumped up, but we know for a fact he was stirring youth to question the gods.  I think the real issues is how bad is bad?  A common experience we all can relate too who gets banned and who does not.   People are rarely banned for violating a rule, because there is a lot of tolerance offending people, except when a mod is offended.  Offending a mod in other forums, is almost sure to result in being banned.  Usually on the trumped up charge of trolling.   A charge that is completely subjective to the mods point of view.  So it is my guess Socrates pissed off a few people who became determined to do what mods do, get rid of him, and they worked their way through the power structure until the had the power to get rid of him.   But really, was he trolling?  He was, stirring young men to question the gods.

The problem being who would have followed Alexander the Great if the people didn't believe he was the son of a god?   The superstition of believing in the gods, played into the power structure, as it does in the US, and Socrates was attacking that superstition.  Worse, he was pissing people off by backing them into the corner with his questions.   A pissed off person became a mod, and bye, bye Socrates.  


Posted By: CyberRanger
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 00:16

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 15:00
Originally posted by CyberRanger

<FONT size=3 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.



good point Ranger !! I admire Aristotle much more than Socrates for Plato.

I still find Plato's beliefs about forms tooooo abstract. Especially when it relates to the perfect society.

I need to bring up Thucydides in another thread sometime. I really admire his writings about the Peloponnesian War.
Tonights lecture is on that topic so it will be fun-

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 15:01
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

LOLOh hell...I could have been charged with that when I was 15....up on the Llano. For that matter any current corrupt US poli, of any agenda, could be as well.Wink 
 

Nice to chat with you again.

 

CV


many thanks -

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: unclefred
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2011 at 16:03
Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I know it is popular to say the charges were trumped up, but we know for a fact he was stirring youth to question the gods.  I think the real issues is how bad is bad?  A common experience we all can relate too who gets banned and who does not.   People are rarely banned for violating a rule, because there is a lot of tolerance offending people, except when a mod is offended.  Offending a mod in other forums, is almost sure to result in being banned.  Usually on the trumped up charge of trolling.   A charge that is completely subjective to the mods point of view.  So it is my guess Socrates pissed off a few people who became determined to do what mods do, get rid of him, and they worked their way through the power structure until the had the power to get rid of him.   But really, was he trolling?  He was, stirring young men to question the gods.

The problem being who would have followed Alexander the Great if the people didn't believe he was the son of a god?   The superstition of believing in the gods, played into the power structure, as it does in the US, and Socrates was attacking that superstition.  Worse, he was pissing people off by backing them into the corner with his questions.   A pissed off person became a mod, and bye, bye Socrates.  
Are you suggesting we move on to poisoning if a ban isn't enough? LOL


Posted By: Galleon
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2011 at 22:57
Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

I agree with eaglecap, it's not only Socrates, but theres others like Plato, Hippocrates and etc.Smile


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 11:27
Originally posted by unclefred

Originally posted by Athena

Yes, I know it is popular to say the charges were trumped up, but we know for a fact he was stirring youth to question the gods.  I think the real issues is how bad is bad?  A common experience we all can relate too who gets banned and who does not.   People are rarely banned for violating a rule, because there is a lot of tolerance offending people, except when a mod is offended.  Offending a mod in other forums, is almost sure to result in being banned.  Usually on the trumped up charge of trolling.   A charge that is completely subjective to the mods point of view.  So it is my guess Socrates pissed off a few people who became determined to do what mods do, get rid of him, and they worked their way through the power structure until the had the power to get rid of him.   But really, was he trolling?  He was, stirring young men to question the gods.

The problem being who would have followed Alexander the Great if the people didn't believe he was the son of a god?   The superstition of believing in the gods, played into the power structure, as it does in the US, and Socrates was attacking that superstition.  Worse, he was pissing people off by backing them into the corner with his questions.   A pissed off person became a mod, and bye, bye Socrates.  
Are you suggesting we move on to poisoning if a ban isn't enough? LOL


Absolutely not.  I am on the side of stating what we believe is true and correct, no matter how much one is harassed or attacked, or how unpopular doing so, makes a person.    It is better to give one life for truth, then to surrender it to a lie (go along with the crowd to be accepted by them, even though they live by a lie).   The individual ego is insignificant to the whole, and choosing ones own ego above the good of all, is to separate self from we might call God or Tao.  But when we devote ourselves to truth, regardless of what others may of think of us, we can die in peace secure in being one with the oneness.   On the other hand, putting ego needs first, is choosing separation from the oneness.   In biblical terms, we refer to this as sin and a fall, and say Satan is a liar.   Clearly Socrates felt secure in his choice when he gave his life for the freedom to speak truth.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 11:37
Originally posted by Galleon

Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

I agree with eaglecap, it's not only Socrates, but theres others like Plato, Hippocrates and etc.Smile


The culture of Athens established by those preserved in the documents, generates greatness.  When this forgotten civilization was rediscovered, they were believed to a society of geniuses.  For this reason, the US imitated their education for well rounded individual growth.  It tears my heart knowing this education was replaced by Germany's education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  We can not realize our human potential, following the path of our enemy.   But we can destroy the world with our weapons.  Big smile  That is exactly what Zeus feared!  that we would develop technology and forget the gods.  We have come to that day.   We are technologically smart, but lack the wisdom to use this technology.   

I think it was necessary to follow this path of rapid technological development, but pray daily that we recover our balance, and return public education to its original purpose of actualizing the dream of democracy with liberty and justice for all.  


Posted By: Galleon
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 11:40
Originally posted by Athena

Originally posted by Galleon

Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.

I agree with eaglecap, it's not only Socrates, but theres others like Plato, Hippocrates and etc.Smile


The culture of Athens established by those preserved in the documents, generates greatness.  When this forgotten civilization was rediscovered, they were believed to a society of geniuses.  For this reason, the US imitated their education for well rounded individual growth.  It tears my heart knowing this education was replaced by Germany's education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  We can not realize our human potential, following the path of our enemy.   But we can destroy the world with our weapons.  Big smile  That is exactly what Zeus feared!  that we would develop technology and forget the gods.  We have come to that day.   We are technologically smart, but lack the wisdom to use this technology.   

I think it was necessary to follow this path of rapid technological development, but pray daily that we recover our balance, and return public education to its original purpose of actualizing the dream of democracy with liberty and justice for all.  
I agree, Athena. Good point.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-May-2011 at 17:30
For those of you who hold a very tight grip on our currently held chronology, as well as the placement of Plato, and his so called "neo-Platonists", then I will refer you to this site, and its very mind opening first few paragraphs,;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

Thus the above sites says or asserts;

"Neoplatonism (also called Neo-Platonism) is the modern term for a school of religious and mystical philosophy that took shape in the 3rd century AD, based on the teachings of Plato and earlier Platonists, with its earliest contributor believed to be Plotinus, and his teacher Ammonius Saccas. Neoplatonists would have considered themselves simply Platonists, and the modern distinction is due to the perception that their philosophy contained sufficiently unique interpretations of Plato to make it substantially different from what Plato wrote and believed. [1] Neoplatonism attempted to reconcile the nascent Christian doctrine with the classical philosophies of Greek and Roman society.

The Neoplatonism of Plotinus and Porphyry has been referred to as in fact being orthodox Platonic philosophy by scholars like John D. Turner. This distinction provides a contrast with later movements of Neoplatonism, such as those of Iamblichus and Proclus, which embraced magical practices or theurgy as part of the soul's development in the process of the soul's return to the Source. Possibly Plotinus was motivated to clarify some of the traditions in the teachings of Plato that had been misrepresented before Iamblichus (see Neoplatonism and Gnosticism).

Neoplatonism took definitive shape with the philosopher Plotinus, who claimed to have received his teachings from Ammonius Saccas, a philosopher in Alexandria.[2] Plotinus was also influenced by Alexander of Aphrodisias and Numenius of Apamea. Plotinus's student Porphyry assembled his teachings into the six sets of nine tractates, or Enneads. Subsequent Neoplatonic philosophers included Iamblichus, Hypatia of Alexandria, Hierocles of Alexandria, Proclus (by far the most influential of later Neoplatonists), Damascius (last head of Neoplatonist School at Athens), Olympiodorus the Younger, and Simplicius of Cilicia.

Thinkers from the Neoplatonic school cross-pollinated with the thinkers of other intellectual schools. For instance, certain strands of Neoplatonism influenced Christian thinkers (such as Augustine, Boethius, John Scotus Eriugena, and Bonaventure),[3] while Christian thought influenced (and sometimes converted) Neoplatonic philosophers (such as Dionysius the Areopagite).[4][5] In the Middle Ages Neoplatonistic arguments were taken seriously in the thought of medieval Islamic and Jewish thinkers such as al-Farabi and Moses Maimonides,[6] and experienced a revival in the Renaissance with the acquisition and translation of Greek and Arabic Neoplatonic texts."

In reality all you have to consider, with a somwhat open mind, is the first sentence above, where we can read;

"Neoplatonism (also called Neo-Platonism) is the modern term for a school of religious and mystical philosophy that took shape in the 3rd century AD, based on the teachings of Plato and earlier Platonists, with its earliest contributor believed to be Plotinus, and his teacher Ammonius Saccas."

So, from the above we see one strange statement, which is that Plotinus, was reportedly a student of one Ammonius Saccas!"

Perhaps someone can give us a realistic meaning to the first name above which is today spelled as "Ammonius?", or perhaps even provide a meaning for the word "Ammon?" But, the even stranger part is the similarity of the last name "Saccas", as it might well be compared to the name of the teacher of "Plato", who we are told was "Socrates!"

Could "Saccas" be but another variation of "Socrates?"

Could it be but a co-incidence that the two "teachers" held such similar names? Well maybe, but is it also merely a co-incidence that the "student" also has such similar names? That is "Plotinus" versus "Plato?", or even later in time or rather modern chronology, the last "neo-platonist's", who was called or named "Pletho?"

Just whom was the teacher of "Pletho?"

For a lot more information, I would suggest you look for my postings aout the above subject in the "Alternative History" section, or here;

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28856

Regards,






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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-May-2011 at 18:37
I have noticed that no one has responded to my last posting, concerning the teacher of Plotinus being named Saccas, and not Socrates! Is it because some of you now have doubts?

How about you "Thomas", do you really have doubts?

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 17-May-2011 at 20:15
Originally posted by opuslola

I cannot cast a vote, because he may well be but a figment of the imagination?

Is there anything you know of that might not? LOL
 




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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: bethtaylor
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2011 at 11:34
Originally posted by CyberRanger

For me Socrates is genius, but his not the only one.



I think of Socrates as a genius and I put Aristotle up there with him in that category.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2011 at 20:01
My dear MS Beth Taylor, it is good that you think well of Socrates, but just what do you think of Saccas?

He was reportedly the teacher of the great Neo-Platonist! It is not strange that there reportedly existed 1. Plato, then 2. Plotinus, and then 3. Plethon? And one of the above was taught by another famous person with the name Socrates, and another by Saccas!

Please read the earlier posts for more information.

And, in case you do not do the slightest to find out what I am speaking of, then you might well read this site;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonius_Saccas

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: scottaleger
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2011 at 06:33
The Author wrote a book about http://www.printsasia.com/book/The-Journeys-of-Socrates-Dan-Millman-0060763353-9780060763350 - Journeys of Socrates .

The book name is : The Journeys of Socrates
Author : Dan Millman

This is a very nice book about Socrates .




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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2011 at 17:34
Thanks for the recommendation! I will attempt to read it.

Did you read every post in this thread before posting?

If not, you might well do so.

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: d' artagnan
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2011 at 19:32
You seem to be in a bad mood anymore Ron. I mean I'm a bit of a cynic but you make me seem like a priest.

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Hunter Johns

"We're surrounded? Good, now we can kill the bastards in any direction."
— Col. Chesty Puller | Korean War


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2011 at 19:41
Sorry if I appear so Hunter. I had no intention of appearing so. I thought I was only giving a new comer some good advice.

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: d' artagnan
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2011 at 20:07
No biggy just don't want you getting suspended again hey Ron. By the way your a fairly open minded and thoughtful person. What do you think about the condition of this country. Is it going to work itself out or do I need to move myself to another country real soon.


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Hunter Johns

"We're surrounded? Good, now we can kill the bastards in any direction."
— Col. Chesty Puller | Korean War


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2011 at 20:18
I wouldn't say he was a genius, but he was quite good. I think that Socrates is the biggest enigma in history of philosophy, because we don't have anything from him really, what we have are impressions of others, and Plato using his name to sell his own ideas.

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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2011 at 20:26
I know this poster well. And I am delighted to see this individual here.
As to the post I agree in principal..the old codger is hard to fathom other then through the eyes of either his enemies or his friends.
 
Welcome to DQ.
 
CV


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2011 at 23:29
Thank you so much, CV!Smile

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Posted By: Starsucks
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2011 at 16:25
I think Socrates was right to question those who claimed they knew more than they did, but he could've done it in a much less condescending way that probably would have spared his life. I certainly wouldn't like someone who made me look like a fool in public, in front of his own fan club.


Posted By: d' artagnan
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2012 at 14:39
If he had ben less condescending then he wouldn't have been the famous socrates but instead would've been just your typical philosopher. The way he acted when he was on trial is what I regard as the highlight of his career because it's when he let it all out and gave the ,ost insight into the world and the soul.

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Hunter Johns

"We're surrounded? Good, now we can kill the bastards in any direction."
— Col. Chesty Puller | Korean War


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2012 at 22:26
All in all... the attitude of a fine Infantry soldier.

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Antiquarian
Date Posted: 03-May-2012 at 19:19
"The highest wisdom - to distinguish between good and evil" (С). The modern world would be much more primitive, without Socrates. Socrates is a source of intellectual reflection (from Lat. - Reflexio).


Posted By: TafeerKhan
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 06:27
I think Socrates was a genius, and there is enough evidence to believe that he really existed. His contribution is not only with regards to philosophy, but also for standing up for truth.

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Posted By: TafeerKhan
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2012 at 06:31
It was not only Plato who wrote about him, but also Xenophon, Aeschines etc., and the Socratic dialogue became a literary genre.


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