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"First White Child" tradition

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the Americas
Forum Discription: The Americas: History from pre-Colombian times to the present
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27394
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 14:59
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Topic: "First White Child" tradition
Posted By: Dúnadan
Subject: "First White Child" tradition
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 00:20
Some time ago I realized that most of the colonized countries had a tradition, where the first child born to European parents was celebrated. I know that this is the case of Virginia Dare, the first child to be born to English parents. I want to know if you know anything about the first child to be born to European parents in other parts of the world.
All I know is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_white_child
Emilio Palma is an Argentine, by the way

What I want to know, then, is: Who was the first child to be born to European parents in Latin America, especially Argentina? Maybe there's not a record specifying it, I don't know.

Thanks for reading :)



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 01:11
Hardly. For the first European child born in the Americas you better look for norse kids born in Newfoundland or for the first children born in the Spanish colonies to European parents. Unfortunately I don't know who they are.

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Posted By: Dúnadan
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 01:59
Snorri Porfinnsson was the first European child to be born in the Americas, but I'm talking about Latin America, and Argentina specifically.
file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CUsuario%5CCONFIG%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - -


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 02:50
Such a query is really trivia lacking any historical relevancy and more the purview of individuals interested in puffery. Look at this little blurb from the Internet:
 
"The granddaughter of Governor John White, Virginia Dare was the first child born of English parents in the new world. The child's mother was White's daughter Eleanor. Her father, Ananias Dare, served as one of the Governor's assistants. Virginia was born on August 18, 1587, days after the colonists arrival on Roanoke Island. Her baptism on Sunday following her birth was the second recorded Christian sacrament administered in North America. The first baptism had been administered a few days earlier to Manteo, an Indian chief who was rewarded for his service by being christened and named ''Lord''."
 
http://www.outerbanks.com/roanokeisland/history/VirginiaDare/ - http://www.outerbanks.com/roanokeisland/history/VirginiaDare/
 
Forget the abysmal knowledge of geography, but the bit about "Christian sacraments" was a bit much. Anyway, the oldest recorded instance of children born to European parents comes from Santo Domingo (present day capital of the Dominican Republic) and the names are rather famous. Between 1510 and 1513, Diego Colon (the Admiral's son) had four daughters with Maria de Toledo: Felipa, Maria, Juana and Isabel. Three sons followed in the subsequent decade: Luis (1522), Cristobal (1523), Diego (1524). Seing that all were baptized at birth, the rest of the garbage over Virginia Dare can best be assigned to English delusions. There was already a third generation of Colon (Columbus) descendants at Santo Domingo by the time of the Roanoke escapade!
 
Please let us have no more of such tom-foolery...


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 07:53
One can also wonder who the first child of mixed descendency between White and Amerind was? 
Or the first child of mixed descendency between White and Black in the Americas?
Or the first child of Black and Amerind descendency?
Or the first Black child born in the Americas?
 
And then one can ask similar questions about Asians and other groups.
 
And finally one can wonder who was the very first person that was born on the American continent, i.e. the first Amerind person?
 


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 15:49

Such a query is really trivia lacking any historical relevancy and more the purview of individuals interested in puffery. Look at this little blurb from the Internet:


Please don't be so needlessly arrogant.


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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 16:45
Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:00
Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.
 
 
Maybe they do have some importance as examples of symbols for some kind of national, etnhical or even racial identity for those who feel in some way connected to these children. Since some people obviously celebrate the births of some of these children it probably must have some meaning for them.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:13
Looking at Virginia Dare from my mid-20th Century perspective, I believe the occasion was celebrated as proof that the English were in North America to stay. Previous English efforts to colonize North America had been abject failures. And the "Christian sacraments" bit was in the spirit of the Reformation. Spanish writing of the period often mentioned "Lutherian heretics" and "Anglo-Saxon Atheists".


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:48
Originally posted by lirelou

Looking at Virginia Dare from my mid-20th Century perspective, I believe the occasion was celebrated as proof that the English were in North America to stay. Previous English efforts to colonize North America had been abject failures. And the "Christian sacraments" bit was in the spirit of the Reformation. Spanish writing of the period often mentioned "Lutherian heretics" and "Anglo-Saxon Atheists".
 
Er, Lirelou, "Roanoke" was an abject failure as an English plantation, and it was the intital effort. A full generation passed before another attempt was undertaken under the auspices of The London Company. As for the venture into "Christianization" such an effort never became an official objective of English colonial policy! Despite the public rhetoric, specially strong during the Commonwealth (1649-1659), I believe this extract summarizes the attitude correctly:
 
By their nature, the praying town and the school were confined largely to the English settlements and to the preliminary task of "civilizing" the Indians in preparation for religious conversion. But the task of substituting one culture for another was so great that the job of converting the Indians to the English brand of Protestant Christianity was often neglected, postponed, or attacked with inadequate forces. Only twenty-two Indian "churches" of the elect (as opposed to mere congregations) had been gathered in New England by 1776, and only a small handful elsewhere, largely because Protestant church organization had no peripatetic missionaries until the eighteenth century and the standards of church election for Indians were more exacting than those for their English neighbors. The contrast between English hopes and Indian results was sharply drawn by Nathaniel Rogers in his 1764 reissue of William Wood’s hopeful account of New England’s Prospect, first published in 1634. To Wood’s passage suggesting that the natives of America were susceptible to true "religion," Rogers appended a gloomy footnote: "The christianizing the Indians scarcely affords a probability of success," he wrote. "As every attempt to civilize them, since the first settlement of this country, hath proved abortive . . . it will rather appear a Utopian amusement, than a probable pursuit. . . . The feroce manner of a native Indian can never be effaced, nor can the most finished politeness totally eradicate the wild lines of his education."
Read the full assessment on-line:
 
http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/deanedu/litstudies/techprojects/panyc00/axtefram.htm - http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/deanedu/litstudies/techprojects/panyc00/axtefram.htm
 
To preserve what are essentially accidents with a whiff of mythology really suborns the reality of what actually took place. Juxtapose the negativity in Roger's 1764 commentary with the positivity found in the assessment of a Spanish contemporary: Fray Junipero Serra.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.
 
 
Maybe they do have some importance as examples of symbols for some kind of national, etnhical or even racial identity for those who feel in some way connected to these children. Since some people obviously celebrate the births of some of these children it probably must have some meaning for them.
 
Perhaps your concluding observation merits further discussion, but keep in mind this caveat: it will not be pretty.
 
Here is its actual beginning in terms of historiography:
 
The North Carolina Booklet, v. 1, no.1
 
http://digital.lib.ecu.edu/historyfiction/fullview.aspx?id=dav - http://digital.lib.ecu.edu/historyfiction/fullview.aspx?id=dav
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 18:25
Originally posted by Carcharodon

One can also wonder who the first child of mixed descendency between White and Amerind was? 
... 
 
I don't know his/her name, but I am certain it was born in Hispaniola around July of 1493... Wink


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Carcharodon

One can also wonder who the first child of mixed descendency between White and Amerind was? 
... 
 
I don't know his/her name, but I am certain it was born in Hispaniola around July of 1493... Wink

IIn any case the first mestizo in Mexico was the child of Gonzalo de Guerrero, who shipwrecked in Yucatán in 1511, and his Mayan wife.


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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 20:03
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.


It doesn't offend me in the slightist. But sometimes antiquarianism appeals to many - without having any significant historical importance. Finding a 200 year old coin in your back garden for example. Unfortunately for you not everyone (thankfully) is constantly trying to get at the 'interconnectedness of the human experience.' LOL I'm afraid that you suck history's life blood right out with thinking like that.


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Posted By: Dúnadan
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 20:09
There's no need to get like this. I know that Virginia Dare was not even near to be the first European child to be born on the Americas. Americans (North Americans), though, may like to celebrate the first child born to English parents (no one is talking about Christianity), and English hands were the ones who built the United the States of America after all. Thus, it may have a sense of national pride to them, so respect their view.


Originally posted by drgonzaga

Well, Parnell, calling a spade a spade has little to do with arrogance. If the bluntness offends, please understand that items such as the nonsense over Virginia Dare have nothing to do with true historical study but are exercises in cultural arrogance. They truly have no place in any effort pretending cultural understanding and the interconnectedness of the human experience.

My ancestors are 100% European immigrants from the XIX and XX century, so I have no ancestral connection to the first Spaniards of Argentina. Still, I'm interested about it, since I speak Spanish after all and I want to know more about the genesis of my nation. The first child to generations of Creole people that made up the history of a nation can be celebrated. It's not "cultural arrogance", Argentine culture is a product of several sources, but the base is the first Creole settlers of the Rio de la Plata. It's like the symbolic genesis of a nation.


Back to the topic: I downloaded an e-book called "La Argentina Manuscrita", written by "Ruy Díaz de Guzmán", a Paraguayan "Creole" (of Iberian descent). He tells stories about the first settlers of the Rio de la Plata. I'll print it and read it later, but I doubt he tells anything about the very first settlers. That's why I'm askiong you about this, I thought you might know much, much more than me about this topic.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 22:23
Originally posted by Parnell

It doesn't offend me in the slightist. But sometimes antiquarianism appeals to many - without having any significant historical importance. Finding a 200 year old coin in your back garden for example. Unfortunately for you not everyone (thankfully) is constantly trying to get at the 'interconnectedness of the human experience.' LOL I'm afraid that you suck history's life blood right out with thinking like that.
 
Despite my supposed tendencies toward vampirism (shades of the vampire Lestat  ), Parnell, the folderol over Virginia Dare is a symptom of history in the service of propaganda and relevant solely as examples of just how far some individuals and groups will go to close their eyes to transcendant events in the story of mankind. Interestingly enough, the Virginia Dare narrative is but a footnote in the larger orgy of imperial puffery that affected historical narrative and interpretation at the close of the 19th century and gained wide circulation as part of the Columbian Quadricentennial of 1893-1894. If you read the pamphlet on Dare that I cited that relationship becomes obvious. There the true historical significance and why the "First White Child" tradition is inextricably linked to the darker sides of European nationalism and rivalries. Interestingly enough, the question would not have even appeared relevant to the earliest Spanish and Portuguese "adventurers" in the New World.  Yes, they had children with Amerindian women and normally legitimized these descendants [e.g. Don Martin Cortez, made a Knight of Santiago in 1529].
 
By the way, personally, I have gotten over the urge to antiquarianism several times in my lifetime first in philately and numismatics [believe it or not as a child in New Orleans of the early 50s, Spanish doublons and reales were still in general circulation as dollars and dimes--so I didn't have to rummage through the garden for a 200 year old coin] and finally in incunabula and manuscripts, all of which I donated to relevant institutions when I retired.. Albeit, I must admit that I still will pick up rare books and Americana despite my better sense. Just this week I could not resist obtaining a pristine copy of Harry Franck's Vagabonding Down the Andes from 1907. Nevertheless, collecting and possessing objects or being overly-preoccupied with them does not History make. In any event, Virginia Dare does not constitute history but is simply a name in the process of myth-making on a par with that Philadelphia lady, Betsy what's-her-name, tied to the attitudes and perspectives of a completely different time.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 23:38
Originally posted by Dúnadan

There's no need to get like this. I know that Virginia Dare was not even near to be the first European child to be born on the Americas. Americans (North Americans), though, may like to celebrate the first child born to English parents (no one is talking about Christianity), and English hands were the ones who built the United the States of America after all. Thus, it may have a sense of national pride to them, so respect their view.
My ancestors are 100% European immigrants from the XIX and XX century, so I have no ancestral connection to the first Spaniards of Argentina. Still, I'm interested about it, since I speak Spanish after all and I want to know more about the genesis of my nation. The first child to generations of Creole people that made up the history of a nation can be celebrated. It's not "cultural arrogance", Argentine culture is a product of several sources, but the base is the first Creole settlers of the Rio de la Plata. It's like the symbolic genesis of a nation.

Back to the topic: I downloaded an e-book called "La Argentina Manuscrita", written by "Ruy Díaz de Guzmán", a Paraguayan "Creole" (of Iberian descent). He tells stories about the first settlers of the Rio de la Plata. I'll print it and read it later, but I doubt he tells anything about the very first settlers. That's why I'm asking you about this, I thought you might know much, much more than me about this topic.
 
Dunadan you merit a response on two levels. First, I will assess your statement that I have italicized above. A lot of people will quibble with this business about "English" hands and the building of the United States, not least of which the Scots and the Irish, or the fact that the largest ethnic group is the German! If you look at the early National History of the United States, you will discover that a common bond in the forging of nationality was actually Anglophobia! But here I am becoming a bit too technical [while respecting the actual outlook of men such as Jefferson and Franklin and the roots of Jacksonianism]. Perhaps a new thread on this direction is merited.
 
Now, as to your query with specifics to Argentina. As with the United States, the Argentines have also played fast and loose with both facts and national detail. Notice that even you have a queasy feeling over the very first settlers of the "Rio de la Plata" and doubt that a Paraguayan "Creole" will have the facts. The actual fact is a simple one: the first successful colonization took place in Paraguay, with the establishment of the first permanent town, Asunción, in 1537. Here is a handy summary:
 
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field%28DOCID+py0013 - http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+py0013 )
 
However, with regard to the efforts of Cabot, Mendoza, and Irala, all the surviving documents have been published as found in the Archive of the Indies and at Simancas. Just as Santo Domingo became the staging area for Spanish expansion in the Caribbean and Central America, the town of Asunción was the core for expansion in the La Plata basin and onto the Altiplano. The history of modern Buenos Aires, begins in 1580 but it remained a backwater until 1617 when efforts at proscribing the smuggling of Potosi silver at the hands of the Portuguese Piruleiros led to a permanent garrison and adminstrative staff. It was the growing conflict with the Portuguese after 1640 that more-or-less gave Buenos Aires a raison d'etre, but we really can not speak of consolidation and expansion until the Bourbon Reforms of the 18th century, when the actual silver trade of Potosi shifted from Lima to Buenos Aires with the abandonment of the Flota System and the eventual creation of the Viceroyalty of La Plata. If you are looking for "firsts" I am afraid you will have to look at Paraguay even in the evolution of Independence and Nationalism. Modern "Argentina" is the product of the long conflict between Unitarios and Federalistas between 1817 and 1852.
 
Now, the Argentines are no less adept than their Yanqui counterparts at national myth-making. For in all truth, the concern with roots and generous liberties with history came hand-in-hand with the rise of immigration from Europe between 1880 and 1910. The ambiance was captured spectacularly by Domingo Faustino Sarmiento in his aptly titled tome: Facundo: Civilización y Barbarie (1845). Whether you like it or not it is a must read because it explains much as to why Argentina today is still at war with its colonial heritage.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 23:50
Dúnadan wrote: "There's no need to get like this. I know that Virginia Dare was not even near to be the first European child to be born on the Americas. Americans (North Americans), though, may like to celebrate the first child born to English parents (no one is talking about Christianity), and English hands were the ones who built the United the States of America after all. Thus, it may have a sense of national pride to them, so respect their view."
 
Well there were many hands that was there to build the United States of America. First there were the Amerind who gave their land and also actively contributed in the social, economic and political events that resulted in the formation and expansion of the US,  then there were Spaniards who among other things founded missions and settlements and contributed with land, and the French who explored vast reaches of the inner parts of North America and of course founded cities like St Louis and Louisiana. Then we have the Black Slaves descending from Africa that did a lot of work in building economic  prosperity. So in laying the foundation of, developing, extending and consolidating this state the English, and their descendants, were by no means alone.
 
Even the Swedish contributed by participating in the colonial endevour in the 17th century (and also by bringing the technique of the log cabin to America).
 
And later of cource an innumerable amount of input has come also from a lot of other groups from varying places on the Earth.
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 03:27
Dunadan, as an amplification, I was struck "curious" over your reference below:
 
Back to the topic: I downloaded an e-book called "La Argentina Manuscrita", written by "Ruy Díaz de Guzmán", a Paraguayan "Creole" (of Iberian descent). He tells stories about the first settlers of the Rio de la Plata. I'll print it and read it later, but I doubt he tells anything about the very first settlers. That's why I'm askiong you about this, I thought you might know much, much more than me about this topic.
 
Strangely enough, the original title of this chronicle with a hint of epic poetry is Los Anales del descubrimiento, población y conquistas de las provincias del Río de la Plata and its author, Ruy Díaz de Guzmán, originally prepared the narrative in 1612 as a grand summary of not only his experiences but that of his family as well. For one thing, Ruy Díaz was not only a lateral descendant of Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca (he who crossed the litoral of the Gulf of Mexico on foot after the disaster of the Narvaez expedition in Pensacola Bay, but repeated the effort in South America and trekked overland to Asuncion from the Brazilian coast!) but also the son of Ursula de Irala, the daughter of Domingo Martinez de Irala and the Guarani princess, Ybotu Lyu. Hence, this author is not only a criollo but a mestizo as well. The original of this narrative is long lost [unless due diligence finds a counterpart in the untouched  legajos of the AGI] but there were enough surviving copies of most of the text for the preparation of a printed edition in 1836 based on the codex still housed in the national archives of Paraguay.
 
This author is not only considered a reliable "primary" source given his lineage but he also actively participated in the political events of the later colonial world of the Plata basin. Unfortunately, events are cut off after 1573 (since the concluding section is lost), and we hear nothing of his personal experiences in both Santa Fe and Salta between 1580 and 1612.
 
By the way, I suppose by ebook you are referencing the transcription posted by the Russian web site Blok.NOT ( mailto:creos@narod.ru - creos@narod.ru ), which in a way is a good source on-line for A. Skromniysky's project, La Invencion de America, begun in 2005. There are quite a few little jewels here, including many of the 19th century transcriptions and translations of original documents and chronicles.
 

 

 




Posted By: Dúnadan
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 05:15
Civilización y Barbarie is a great book. I have to admit I didn't read it all, but I read some fragments, but I will finish it soon I guess.
While I don't agree with everything Sarmiento says (though I do agree on some of his views), Civilización y Barbarie is a masterpiece.

As to Ruy Díaz de Guzmán being a Mestizo, it's quite surprising and interesting. He was very pro-Spanish/Creole, though (no more than other Creoles anyway), judging by the things he wrote.

I guess you are right that the first Spaniard born in Argentina's territory was probably from Asunción. Though, I may research for Sancti Spiritu then, the first Spaniard settlement here. I will research to see what is it known about Sancti Spiritu. Actually Guzmán wrote a story about it, the story about "Lucía de Miranda" and "Sebastián Hurtado", two Spaniard who escaped to Sancti Spiritu because their parents didn't accept their love.

About English building the USA, yes, well, I know that Scots, Irish and Germans (as well as other minorities) built it too. It was just an example.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 11:17
There's a difference between building North America and building the United States of America.
 
The USA was created with the ratification of the Constitution.
 
What proportion of the framers were of English descent? What non-English precedents went into the framing of the Constitution to the extent that Magna Charta, the Petition of Right of 1628, the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 and the Bill of Rights of 1688/9 did?
 
On whose Common Law is US Common Law (outside Louisiana) founded? In what other country, apart from the Commonwealth, does the Supreme Court recognise an English authority, Blackstone, on issues that predate the Constitution itself? For that matter how many other countries' legal systems are recognised as relevant to US courts?
 


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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 11:29
Originally posted by gcle2003

What non-English precedents went into the framing of the Constitution to the extent that Magna Charta, the Petition of Right of 1628, the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 and the Bill of Rights of 1688/9 did?

Montesquieu's L’esprit des lois? Although that has admitedly little to do with Frenchmen in the US.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 12:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Originally posted by Parnell

It doesn't offend me in the slightist. But sometimes antiquarianism appeals to many - without having any significant historical importance. Finding a 200 year old coin in your back garden for example. Unfortunately for you not everyone (thankfully) is constantly trying to get at the 'interconnectedness of the human experience.' LOL I'm afraid that you suck history's life blood right out with thinking like that.
 
Despite my supposed tendencies toward vampirism (shades of the vampire Lestat  ), Parnell, the folderol over Virginia Dare is a symptom of history in the service of propaganda and relevant solely as examples of just how far some individuals and groups will go to close their eyes to transcendant events in the story of mankind. Interestingly enough, the Virginia Dare narrative is but a footnote in the larger orgy of imperial puffery that affected historical narrative and interpretation at the close of the 19th century and gained wide circulation as part of the Columbian Quadricentennial of 1893-1894. If you read the pamphlet on Dare that I cited that relationship becomes obvious. There the true historical significance and why the "First White Child" tradition is inextricably linked to the darker sides of European nationalism and rivalries. Interestingly enough, the question would not have even appeared relevant to the earliest Spanish and Portuguese "adventurers" in the New World.  Yes, they had children with Amerindian women and normally legitimized these descendants [e.g. Don Martin Cortez, made a Knight of Santiago in 1529].
 
By the way, personally, I have gotten over the urge to antiquarianism several times in my lifetime first in philately and numismatics [believe it or not as a child in New Orleans of the early 50s, Spanish doublons and reales were still in general circulation as dollars and dimes--so I didn't have to rummage through the garden for a 200 year old coin] and finally in incunabula and manuscripts, all of which I donated to relevant institutions when I retired.. Albeit, I must admit that I still will pick up rare books and Americana despite my better sense. Just this week I could not resist obtaining a pristine copy of Harry Franck's Vagabonding Down the Andes from 1907. Nevertheless, collecting and possessing objects or being overly-preoccupied with them does not History make. In any event, Virginia Dare does not constitute history but is simply a name in the process of myth-making on a par with that Philadelphia lady, Betsy what's-her-name, tied to the attitudes and perspectives of a completely different time.
 
 
pwned.
 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 13:32
gcle2003  "There's a difference between building North America and building the United States of America."
 
You can´t build a continent, it was already there when when the first people arrived.
 
And without all those acts of human enterprice that preceded the creation of the entity which is called the USA it would never have come into existence. And the building of a country is not just the legal and the constitutional work, it is all the other economical, cultural and social interactions as well.
 
 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 15:06
Originally posted by Carcharodon

gcle2003  "There's a difference between building North America and building the United States of America."
 
You can´t build a continent, it was already there when when the first people arrived.
Reasonable objection. Make my statement "there's a difference between building a North American country and building the United States of America.' Or possibly 'a North American society'.
And without all those acts of human enterprice that preceded the creation of the entity which is called the USA it would never have come into existence. And the building of a country is not just the legal and the constitutional work, it is all the other economical, cultural and social interactions as well.
Try defining the United States of America (which the original assertion referred to) without its constitutional and legal framework. You can't define it racially or ethnically or religiously. You can't even define it geographically without being circular ('the United States is wherever the constitution of the United States is sovereign'). 
 
 


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 15:07
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by gcle2003

What non-English precedents went into the framing of the Constitution to the extent that Magna Charta, the Petition of Right of 1628, the Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 and the Bill of Rights of 1688/9 did?

Montesquieu's L’esprit des lois? Although that has admitedly little to do with Frenchmen in the US.
And on the basis of what country's institutions (as he perceived them) did Montesquieu write L'esprit des lois?


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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 15:16
Locke, I would presume, but that doesn't change the fact that French thinking also had its part.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 15:30
gcle2003: Try defining the United States of America (which the original assertion referred to) without its constitutional and legal framework. You can't define it racially or ethnically or religiously. You can't even define it geographically without being circular ('the United States is wherever the constitution of the United States is sovereign'). 
 
 
Still you must have some societal, economic, and cultural foundation on which you could apply constitutional and legal framework, and that foundation was created by several different groups.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 16:27
Well, it's nice that everyone now gets the credit for building the US of A. It was, as pointed out, the endeavor of multitides. Yet its foundation was laid on English history, law, and custom. Those who set out to people the northern reaches of the North American continent, and create its wealth and governing institutions, did so within the framework of the constitution. Spanish contributions were negligible, but some Spanish legal concepts, principally touching upon real property and community (i.e., marriage) property, survived in Texas, Nex Mexico, Arizona, and California. The French and Canadians made much greater contributions, primarily as explorers and settlers of what later became American territory, and many signers of the Constitution had likely read at least translations of the Philosophes, but Anglo-American common law became the basis of their state legal systems, as they quickly became Americanized. Because of its population, Louisiana was the exception. If memory serves, the 1875 Civil Code was the last printed in French. But while Louisiana state law retained French civil law terms, it quickly borrowed from Anglo-American jurisprudence. I base this judgment on a thesis I submitted years ago which traced civil law temporary alimony payments (paid while divorce proceedings are in progress) from the original Napoleonic Code down through Spain to Puerto Rico and in Quebec and Louisiana. In Louisiana, the Civil Code was merely referenced, while Anglo-American principles governing alimony were applied. I did not look at the Commerce codes, but suspect that the former was French based in Louisiana, as it took the Federal Courts longer to extend the reach into commerce that they have today.

Some may question that Spanish contributions were negligible, particularly in light of the obvious fact that the American cattle industry grew out of the Texas experience. The fact is that the only territory successfully colonized by Spain (Mexicans) in North America was that portion of the Upper Rio Grande valley above El Paso. Spanish efforts to find colonists to settle Florida, Texas, Arizona, and California resulted in very few takers. These areas were remote, viewed as desert, and home to hostile semi-nomadic tribes. By the time of the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848), only 75,000 Mexican citizens inhabited the Southwest, and most of those were in New Mexico. The waves of immigration that gave the U.S. the Mexican-American population it has today started during the Reforma, continued during the "Porfiriato", and reached its early apex during the Mexican Revolution. It continued because the average Mexican immigrant had more opportunity, and protection under the law, on this side of the border than they did back "home". The fact that some modern Americans with names like Ramirez or Gonzalez can now trace at least one ancestor back to the Mayflower, or Jamestown, does not a "Spanish contribution" make.  


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 17:53
Oh, oh, we've steered dangerously close to the precipice of topical digression and wandered onto a very old controversy: To what extent does the Common Law govern American jurisprudence.
 
Lirelou went a little overboard as to contributors and contributions within the American juridical tradition, suffice it to say that the question at hand (digression though it may be) deals with the tension between Common Law and Civil Jurisprudence. Here is a good on-line summation juxtaposing the juridical directions:
 
http://www.arcaneknowledge.org/histpoli/commoncivil.htm - http://www.arcaneknowledge.org/histpoli/commoncivil.htm
 
Now with regard to the dismissal of the "Spanish/French" contribution by Lirelou, one must keep in mind how the customary in most states States of the Far West, Southwest, and Lower Mississippi Valley based upon Civil jurisprudence, trumped the Common Law in both material and social issues. Not only are mining and riparian rights premised upon the older Spanish and French precedents but inheritance and property rights for the female as well. Nor can the argument from population numbers be made since Californianos were in the majority as late as the 1870s. As regard to the Spanish there is a rather good book on just this topic: Charles R. Cutter. The Legal Culture of Northern New Spain.
 
By the way, Lirelou, even during the British interlude in Florida (1764-1784), the government of George III employed "Spaniards" from the Balearic Islands to populate the colony!
 
Now as to the Founding Fathers and what ideas they reflected upon in shaping government much can be made on how much they drew upon Roman Law as a constraint on what is known in shorthand as the Whiggish Tradition. Certainly, Jefferson was not too keen on judges rather than legislatures being the ultimate arbiter of what Law is...Wink
 
PS: Is it not curious that Federal Law is known as U. S. Code?


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 18:11
The USA was created with the ratification of the Constitution.
 
So then what does one make of the Articles of Confederation? From 1781 to 1789, it governed in perpetual Union the territories known as the United States.
 

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

http://www.usconstitution.net/articles.html#Preamble - http://www.usconstitution.net/articles.html#Preamble
 

And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.

These concluding words eerily haunted the succeeding document until crisis brought Civil War.
 
PS: It seems that "first" has a lot of encumbrances no matter where one looks.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 21:44
My good Drgonzaga. In re:  "one must keep in mind how the customary in most states States of the Far West, Southwest, and Lower Mississippi Valley based upon Civil jurisprudence, trumped the Common Law in both material and social issues."

I must respectfully disagree. California, certainly. New Mexico, likewise. Washington State? Oregon? Idaho?, Montana?, Wyoming?, Utah? Colorado?  Most assuredly not!  As for the Lower Mississippi Valley. Louisiana, Civil code is the structure. I'll avoid a lengthy digression of common law precedent "seeping" in. Arkansas, Tenneessee, Mississippi, and Alabama? Ango-American common law. Missouri? Perhaps. St. Louis was the capital of Upper Louisiana.

Nice article you cited on the differences between the two. However, judicial precedence also influences Civil Law, and at times modifies it so that in practice the "law" is based upon a "sentencia" of the Supreme Court, rather than the exact wording of the Civil Code. You might want to look at Puig-Brutau, but all I could find was this: http://www.tirant.com/redabogacialibros/detalle?articulo=8497902297

As for the numerical superiority of "Californios" in the 1870s, I'll look at your source. Certainly the gold rush brought in great numbers from all over the world, to include Hispanics from Chile northwards. But it likewise brought in a great number of other folks. Granted, Porfirio Diaz was already in power, but "quare"...

As for the articles of confederation, note that the State of Vermont was not included. It preferred to govern itself. Maine was then part of Massachusetts, so Vermont was the only holdout.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 23:52
As they say, Lirelou, the devil Evil Smile is in the details, so let us get satanic here:
 
As for the articles of confederation, note that the State of Vermont was not included. It preferred to govern itself. Maine was then part of Massachusetts, so Vermont was the only holdout.
 
There was no colonial entity known as "Vermont" in 1775, and the land encompassed by the present state was in dispute between the Royal Colonies of New York and New Hampshire as well as the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Vermont as a separate political entity arises as part of the overall "Western Lands" controversy that dogged the Congress under the Articles of Confederation. We will not go into the myths generated by the rabble known as The Green Mountain Boys but the fact remains that the Continental Congress refused to recognize any of the pretensions to sovereignty by Ethan Allen given the forcible expulsion of settlers in the region with New York land titles--not to mention the treasonable activities of the Allen brothers. It is not until 1790. with the payment of $30,000 to the State of New York and the formal conformance of the inhabitants with the 1784 and 1785 Ordinances of the Congress under the Articles that Vermont is granted "statehood" in 1791. There are other interesting quirks--such as the area serving as a refuge to participants in Shay's Rebellion--but none of the bordering states in the early nation recognized Vermont as a juridical entity. The Bakers and the Allens were quite a crew of speculators and scofflaws, read this interesting little background:
 
http://www.connecticutsar.org/patriots/cousins.htm - http://www.connecticutsar.org/patriots/cousins.htm
Now to the West...
 
With regard to the Californios, a strange thing happened on the way to the Census Offices in the years 1850-1870: people went missing! Needless to say, current research by institutions such as the Huntington Library's Early California Population Project is redressing the phenomenon, see:
 
http://www.huntington.org/Information/ECPPmain.htm - http://www.huntington.org/Information/ECPPmain.htm  
 
We will not go into Cook's studies on the decline of the Amerindians between 1776 and 1876 during the 1970s but suffice it to say that Federal census officials ignored them entirely both in 1850 and 1860, and differentiations as to origins becomes rather hazy with regard to "emmigrants and immigrants" where totals just do not "add up". See this chart, which raises more questions than profers answers:
 
http://www.museumca.org/goldrush/curriculum/1stcalifornians/resourcesix.htm - http://www.museumca.org/goldrush/curriculum/1stcalifornians/resourcesix.htm
 
However, we are concerned more with the law and it roots, and as far as California is concerned we have to look into mining, land tenancy, and water rights. Keeping in mind that we must recognize that there were two Californias--the North where anything went and the South, with its older traditions and patterns--even the Congress got involved. A good jumping point for further research:
 
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/mexican_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=69 - http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/mexican_voices/voices_display.cfm?id=69
 
Didn't you ever wonder why title to what's under the ground does not run with title to the ground itself or why prior appropriation statutes govern water usage in the American West?
Here's a book to read:
 
Miller, Char, ed. Fluid Arguments: Five Centuries of Western Water Conflict. Tucson: University of Arizona Press, 2001
 
As an aside, did you ever wonder why Leo Carillo (the famous Pancho of Cisco Kid fame) served as grand marshall of the Rose Parade for years? There was a rather famous Californio with a lot of real estate.
 
 

 




Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 02:33
in re: Vermont. The U.S. did not recognize Vermont? France and the Netherlands did, and the U.S. Continental Congress allowed Connecticut to represent its interests in the U.S.. It also maintained its own militia, minted its own currency, governed itself with all the powers of any of the 13 colonies, and conducted foreign relations. Yes, the majority of Vermonters wanted Statehood. That places them on a par with the Texas Republic. But, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I had always presumed that the majority of early Vermonters simply wanted independence. Your reply shows me otherwise.

Reference California's census problems. Apparently everyone agrees that the entire population of California prior to the gold rush (1849) was under 15,000. I assume that non-mission Indians were not counted, but they are irrelevant to the issue. Thus no reason to go into Cook. What is undisputed is that an enormous number of people came into California as a result of the gold rush. My sources, from memory, indicate that the arriving immigrants made Hispanics a minority. I already agreed that Spanish law provided the basis for property rights (which would include water and mining) and certain family matters in California and New Mexico, but both are legally Anglo-American common law jurisdictions. The only real civil law jurisdiction under the U.S. flag is Puerto RIco, and even there the Criminal Code is subject to U.S. constitutional rights and guarantees. Puerto Rico also has an admiralty code, but it remains a mere document as admiralty falls under the commerce clause. Puerto Rico was also obliged to do away with its "juez investigadores". Yes, the Fed's have a code, and so do most common law states. Penal codes, codes of judicial procedure, commercial codes, etc.

As for Leo Carrillo. I also presume that the original "californios" ended up with a lot of land. As 'presiderarios" under the Spanish, they were corporals and sergeants. Often, they did not get paid for years at a time. The Spanish would then pay them in land grants. When Mexico went independent, they were all promoted to officers. Yet again, the payroll often failed to arrive from Mexico City, and they received more land grants.  They were hardly wealthy men, but I suspect that as California's population boomed, some of them made money. Not all Mexican Californios in 1848 were Hispanic. The Los Angeles "Lancero" unit included an American immigrant, and an "English" one (named Reid, if memory serves). In any event, when both fell out to fight the American invaders, the "Brit" was wearing what was described as a "skirt" and carrying a "long sword". I presume that none of his fellow lancers had ever seen a Scot go to war. I used to wonder if any of his gene pool was in Duncan Reynaldo.Wink


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 11:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga

 
We will not go into Cook's studies on the decline of the Amerindians between 1776 and 1876 during the 1970s
Then why mention them? If we don't go into them there's no reason at all to suppose they support your case.
 
Didn't you ever wonder why title to what's under the ground does not run with title to the ground itself
Nope. It's standard in English Common Law, and is at least often then case in monarchies. What's more interesting is the way in which in the US mining rights frequently do go with surface rights, which may be the result of the US having so much unassigned and unclaimed Federal territory. 
 
I don't really see what point you're making there though. The distinction between surface rights and mining rights is common to all monarchies with a feudal history, surely?
 
 


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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 21:26
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 
We will not go into Cook's studies on the decline of the Amerindians between 1776 and 1876 during the 1970s
Then why mention them? If we don't go into them there's no reason at all to suppose they support your case.
 
Didn't you ever wonder why title to what's under the ground does not run with title to the ground itself
Nope. It's standard in English Common Law, and is at least often then case in monarchies. What's more interesting is the way in which in the US mining rights frequently do go with surface rights, which may be the result of the US having so much unassigned and unclaimed Federal territory. 
 
I don't really see what point you're making there though. The distinction between surface rights and mining rights is common to all monarchies with a feudal history, surely?
 
 
 
Wrong on both counts. Cook is important not only in terms of Amerind populations--which were ignored by Census officials, specially hispanicized Amerinds--but also in calculating the veracity of supposedly "official" census figures for the period 1850-1880. Further, mineral rights are distinct and different between Common Law and Civil Law countries. Under traditional understanding of the Common Law "he who owns the surface owns what lies below" and the conceptualization of Mining Codes recognizing conditionals setting title to mineral wealth apart from terran proprietorship had no standing at Law. What was inherited from Roman Law dealt with the concept of the res publicum (the law and public land as distinct from private titles). However, when the United States acquired the Mexican borderlands, Mexican (from Spanish Law) Mining Codes, which granted the individual the right to explore and mine for mineral wealth on public land, was adopted ipso facto by the miners in California who not only accepted the premise under the Civil Law but had the distinction established under Federal Law through the General Mining Act of 1872. In essence, under the Common Law private property can not be suborned by Mining Codes nor Statutory agreements, whereas the Civil Law does provide for such. "Claim staking" originates within the Spanish tradition and not that of the Common Law for it is the product of a Mining Code, which sets forth basic rules in a coherent and consistent fashion, and tacitly recognized the principle of "open mining". A Mining Code entered into the Common Law principles of the United States with the acquisition of the Southwest. 
 
As for the niceties in a contemporary setting when discussing Common Law and Civil Law countries:
 
http://www.natural-resources.org/minerals/CD/docs/unctad/dist_learn/Policy-Unit2.pdf - http://www.natural-resources.org/minerals/CD/docs/unctad/dist_learn/Policy-Unit2.pdf
 
I found this bit interesting:
 
"What's more interesting is the way in which in the US mining rights frequently do go with surface rights, which may be the result of the US having so much unassigned and unclaimed Federal territory."
 
I do believe that many an Amerind has a few choice words to say on the above.  
 



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