Battle of Jaworow - Sadowa Wisznia 14 - 16 IX 1939
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Topic: Battle of Jaworow - Sadowa Wisznia 14 - 16 IX 1939
Posted By: Domen
Subject: Battle of Jaworow - Sadowa Wisznia 14 - 16 IX 1939
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 19:54
Another topic about one of the Polish victories in the Polish Campaign in 1939.
Link to the previous one about the battles of Kiernozia and Ruszki:
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=25993
Photos and pictures from the battle of Jaworów - Sądowa Wisznia (14. - 16. of September 1939):
In the battle of Jaworów - Sądowa Wisznia (14th - 16th of September)
elite German Waffen SS motorized regiment "Germania" and also some
units from other divisions - most probably 1st or 2nd Mountain, 5th
Panzer or other - or some disposal units of Corps (XXII or VIII) or 14.
Army - were totally crushed by the Poles (elements of 38. and 11. Infantry Divisions from Operational Group "Southern"):
During the battle of Jaworów - Sądowa Wisznia "Germania" lost all of its heavy equipment, big part of small arms, hundreds of men - and was crushed and dispersed.
First of all - pictures:
Three pictures painted in 1940 by Polish soldier Jan Gundlach -
eye-whitness - from 11. KDP (Karpacka Infantry Division), who fought in
the battle of Jaworów - Sądowa Wisznia and in the combat of Mużyłowice
(which was part of the battle of Jaworow - Sądowa Wisznia):
Two pictures are from the battle of Jaworow - Sądowa Wisznia - combat in Mużyłowice:
Poles attacking Waffen SS-men in the combat of Mużyłowice (during the night 15. / 16. of September):
After the combat in Mużyłowice:
Near the church - it was in the centre of Muzylowice -, Poles captured 8 guns (motorized) and a lot of other equipment (as well as in the other parts of the village):
The last picture is most probably from the later battle - probably from
the battle of Janów Lubelski (maybe combat near Rzęsna Ruska against
Panzer-Regiment 15. from the 5. Panzer-Division). But maybe it is also
from the battle of Jaworów - Sądowa Wisznia - I'm not shure:
Now photos:
Destroyed German equipment in one of the streets in the middle of the village:
Barrel of this gun was most probably blown up by hand grenade:
More of destroyed German equipment in Mużyłowice:
Destroyed armoured vehicle from SS "Germania" - name "Leopard":
Map showing the battle of Jaworow - Sadowa Wisznia (the second phase of the battle):
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muzylowicelu8.jpg">
Units supporting "Germania" were also attacked from the air by Polish 16. and 17. (PZL-P37 bombers) squadrons.
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Replies:
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 20:22
Regardless of the performance of individual units the fact of the matter is the Poles lost the war.
The Polish campaign was badly mismanaged by Polish generals. The generals had enough time and resources to mount a successfull defense against the Germans who's army was still a mediocre force made mostly of raw recruits.
What I am really interested in is the Polish units of the later stages of the war, those units were among the best the allies ever had, can you give info about Polish units performance in North Africa?
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Domen
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 23:03
the Germans who's army was still a mediocre force made mostly of raw recruits.
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I don't think so - read something more about the way Reichswehr transformed into Wehrmacht.
Reichswehr was in fact a mini-Wehrmacht, which only needed to be enlarged and equipped.
The Germany's army yet in 1939 was the best trained army in the world.
The Polish campaign was badly mismanaged by Polish generals.
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Yes, there were huge mistakes commited, but it didn't have a major influence on the course of the war - as some other events which took place had. It only made victories in some battles easier for the enemy.
The generals had enough time and resources to mount a successfull defense against the Germans
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Surrounded from three sides, outnumbered, outgunned ?
Where - along the borders of the country ? - I don't think so.
Along the big rivers? - then Hitler would capture what "was his" and say "thank you".
In Romanian Bridgehead? - yes, but not since the beginning of the war, because Romanian Bridgehead was only around 10% of the territory of Poland - the Poles couldn't simply leave 90% of their territory without combat (including the capital city) for the Germans, and defend in the remaining 10% of territory just because it was the easiest area to defend there successfully.
The Polish commanders didn't even plan to defend along the borders for a very long time.
The whole Poland had got ammunition only for 2 - 3 months of war. Factories were not able to provide enough supplies during the wartime.
Poland could defend much longer but only with help of Western Allies - especcialy supplies.
And only if the Soviet Union did not strike on 17th of September.
The Poles couldn't win alone, and this was actually never the case of the
Polish defensive plan (the Polish defensive plan - Plan "Z" - was not
considering a way to victory, but a way to resist as long as possible -
the Poles counted on the French offensive on the Western front).
Poles were not so stupid and knew that they cannot hold the borders
being attacked from three sides on over 1600 km long frontline - the
only reason why the first Polish defensive lines were established along
the borders was to show the world that they defend every part of their
country.
The Poles were afraid that if they establish they first defensive lines
along the biggest rivers (Vistula, Narew, San) - the Germans would
capture Greater Poland ("Posen Province"), Silesia, Pomerania - and say
"thank you - we took what is ours - now you can vegetate without own
heavy industry, resources (Silesia) and without own entrance to the
see".
It could happen even before the Western Allies declare war to Germany, if the borders were not defended.
After the battles at the borders the Poles planned to withdraw towards
the lines of big rivers (Vistula, Narew, San) and then towards the
Romanian Bridgehead - when they planned to resist until spring of 1940.
Of course they planned to constantly slowing down German advances
during this withdrawal - and later to defend for some time along the
lines of big rivers - and to make some counterattacks.
The Polish commanders, however, underestimated the speed of the German
armoured forces. They also thought that the German armored forces are
not able to hold terrain during nights - and will be withdrawn during
nights from the frontline to safe places. That is why they thought that
even if the Germans break through the Polish defensive lines, they will
not be able to rush into the Polish positions deeper than for 50 - 100
kms before the sunset - and then they will have to be withdrawn. If not
- they will be destroyed during the night by the Polish counterattacks,
and routes of withdrawal will be cut off by the Polish sappers.
Unfortunately the Germans managed to find the way to survive inside the
terrain controled by the enemy for the night - during nights tanks were
forming fortificated camps (square formation) in open fields and were
setting fire to the local barns - such a "fortificatd camp" was very
hard to be took by surprise and destroyed by infantry with artillery
and AT weapons.
Defence of Silesia was planned in that way (especcialy areas near
Pszczyna and Kobiór) - the Polish defensive lines in the Pszczyna
region were all one big trap for tanks.
But the Germans didn't manage to defeat the Polish army until 17th of
September - as it is sometimes said. The Poles still had got the
majority of their forces.
The Soviet attack was decisive and it had the biggest influence on the course of that war.
Regardless of the performance of individual units the fact of the matter is the Poles lost the war.
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They lost the war fighting on two fronts - with Germany and USSR, which were cooperating one with another since 17th of September.
Statement that the Polish army was defeated on 17th of September is a myth. When someone analize it carefully he will see that on 17th of September Poland still had got over 1 million strength army - so bigger than on 1st of September (yes - it is true that part of it was encircled by it was encircled by the majority of the German forces and in the part of the frontline which was of second-importance for the further defence of Poland).
This map (made by me) is more accurate than the majority of similar
maps that can be find anywhere (maybe there are some mistakes, but its
the first version) - it is showing situation on 16/17 of September,
shortly before the Soviet agression. It is showing German forces
(divisions, brigades and independents regiments) and Polish forces
(divisions, brigades, independent groups and regiments, and some other
units of these bigger ones):
(I used map with modern-day borders to make it - no matter cause its test version only):
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wpiwh17ix2mb1jn5.png">
Yellow-coloured divisions and brigades at the Bzura battle are those
which broke through the Bzura line and later broke through to Warsaw
and to Modlin after the battle in Puszcza Kampinoska:
Of course there were no 12 infantry divisions and 3 cavalry brigades in
the Bzura pocket as German sources sometimes clime (which was - by the
way - not closed by the Germans yet on 17th of September):
Germans engaged most of their forces in the Bzura battle and the
battles of Warsaw, Modlin and Puszcza Kampinoska as can be seen in the
map. Untill those battles ended, they couldn't move these forces
anywhere (for example - to the south-eastern front - which was much
more important if they wanted to defeat Poland).
So the battle of Bzura - although it ended with the Polish defeat (it
lasted untill 22nd of September - and the battle in Puszcza Kampinoska
untill 24th of September) - it was strategical Polish succes (because
it was engaging for such a long time, so many German forces - which
could be send to any other - more important - areas of the frontline).
But the Soviets helped them since 17th of September, so they didn't have to move there their main forces.
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wpiwh17ix2mb1jn5.png">
And here the same map with marked advances of forward Soviet units
untill the evening of 19th of September (and blue arrow shows probable
Soviet escapade in strength of at least one battalion towards Zamość on
19th - 20th of September):
http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wpiwh17ix2mb2ux4.png">
http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wpiwh17ix2mb2ux4.png">
And here is the area of Romanian Bridgehead where marschal Rydz-Śmigły
- before the Soviet Agression happened -, planned to concentrate all
forces (as many units as possible) and defend against the Germans
untill Spring of 1940:
Romanian Bridgehead was a mountain-highland, very forrested area with
lots of natural obstacles (for example - rivers), with very bad roads
(when it rained a lot - like in Poland during Autumn -, there was a lot
of mud and roads were practically blocked for motorized vehicles).
Soviets invaded without declaring war on 17th of September (around
midnight during the night from 16th / 17th of September) by surprise,
and captured almost 3/4 of this area before 19th of September ended:
On 17th of September when first messages from the new frontline reached
Headquarters of the Polish Army (located near Stanisławów) - marschal
Rydz-Śmigły at first wanted to declare war to the USSR, but after this
initial decision and after three following meetings with most important
Polish officers and members of Government - under influence of fatal
news from the frontline (news about terrible Soviet superiority in
numbers and equipment) - he decided - in the late afternoon of 17th of
September - to give his famous order to all units: "Don't provoke
Soviets to fight and withdraw to Romania, defend only if the Soviets
attacks first, try to negotiate with them if possible".
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapaprzedmociarumuskiegnu2.png">
French embassy in Poland - general Louis Faury - on 16th of September
1939 considered these plans as possible to realize and sent a message
to Gamelin telling this. He also promised to general Stachiewicz that
the French general offensive in the West will start on 21st of September 1939.
He explained that the French general offensive will start on 21st of
September (not on 17th / 18th of September as was previously said),
because of mobilizational problems and problems with combat-readiness
and concentration of some units.
First allied supplies of equipment, ammunition and weaponry for Poland
reached Romanian ports in Constanza and Galati on 16th of September
1939 - Polish envoys were send to Romania on that day to receive them.
I think that if not the Soviet agression of 17th of September - and if
France and Britain attacked Germany with all their forces on 21st of
September as Louis Faury promised on 16th of September - this war could
end even in 1939 or at the beginning of 1940.
Because if not the Soviet agression, Poland
would hold much longer (at least several weeks longer) than it happened
in reality - especcialy that allied supplies through the sea and across
Romania (by train) to Romanian Bridgehead were just coming.
When Poland was invaded by the
Soviet Union all ships with supplies were stopped, and some of them
were sent to Constantinople for Turks (Britain hoped that Turks can be
its allies against Germans and against the Soviet Union - because there
was a possibility of war with Soviet Union, there were even British
plans of attacking the Soviet Union - in the future stages of the war).
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Posted By: Domen
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 23:10
In the map above you can see 21. Light Tanks Battalion in Stanisławów. On 17th of September it had got 45 Renault R-35 tanks.
Armored
unit in Łuck on 17th of September had got 11 x 7 TP tank, 8 x
R-35 tank, 3 x H-35 tank, 2 tankettes and 2 armoured cars. There was
also other armored unit in Łuck which had got 6 x Vickers E, 4 x TKS
and at least 1 armoured car. This gives us at least 34 AFVs.
10. Motorized Brigade which was fighting near Lwów on 17th of September had got 18 x TKS - maybe some of them were with 2cm gun.
There
were also 3 Renault FT-17 tanks from 113. company of light tanks in the
area. Also another improvised company was formed in Brześć and later
moved towards Włodzimierz Wołyński - most probably it had got 15 tanks.
Another
50 R-35 tanks for Poland - from first transports of allied supplies -
were enroute to Romania on 16th of September. But after the Soviet
agression transport with these tanks was stopped and tanks were
transported to Tunisia.
All in all - Poles could easilly gather
a considerable armoured "fist" in Romanian Bridgehead within few days -
if not the Soviet invasion. It would consist of (at least):
103 x Renault R-35 tanks 17 x 7TP and Vickers E tanks 3 x Hotchkiss H-35 tanks 24 x tankettes 3 x armoured cars 18 x Renault FT-17 tanks
Total: at least 168 AFVs
It
should be noticed that French Renault R-35 and Hotchkiss H-35 tanks
were in general better than most of German tanks - they had thick
armour and quite good gun. Vickers E were also very good tanks what
they proved in the battle of Wiśnicz Nowy on 6th of September (company
of 16 Polish Vickers E tanks caused major losses to very superior in
numbers German armoured forces, losing only 1 tank). Polish 7TP tanks
had got excellent guns but thin armour (I know even one particular
example when - at least German sources claim this - on 19th of
September - Polish 7TP tank from Warszawska Armoured-Motorized Brigade
was eliminated by German Panzer II - with 20mm automatic gun - from a
distance of 700 metres...).
Those forces could be incorporated into 10. Motorized Brigade, or a separate, improvised unit could be formed of them.
Also at least three Polish armoured trains were in the region on 17th of September (51., 53. and 55.).
It
seems that the biggest Panzer-battle of the Polish Campaign would be
fought in Romanian Bridgehead if not the Soviet agression.
There
was also a possibility of transporting relatively quickly French tanks
Char D1 and Char D2 (considerable amount) from Africa to Poland - and
also further transports with R-35.
Renault R-35 tanks weren't practically used in the Polish
Campaign due to the Soviet agression (only 17 to 19 of them took part in
combats with the Red Army forces - for example in the battle of
Stanisławów - and in the battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa with the German forces). The majority of them crossed the border without combat. In total 44 out of 53 of those tanks crossed the border.
50
more of them - which were being transported to Poland on 16th of
September and which were bought by Poland before the war - did not
reach Poland due to the Soviet agression. Instead of that they were
transported to Tunisia after the Soviet agression of Poland.
Another myth of the Polish Campaign is that the Germans managed to destroy the Polish Air Force until 17th of September. It is also not true.
On 17th of September in the mornig, the two biggest Polish air units –
Brygada Bombowa and Brygada Pościgowa, after reorganization, had got:
On 17th of September both these units were parts of High Command's Disposal Aircraft in Romanian Bridgehead:
1. Brygada Pościgowa:
1. dyon – 20 x PZL P-11 C fighter 2. dyon – 20 x PZL P-11 C fighter 3. dyon – 14 x PZL P-7 fighter
Total: 54 fighters
On
1st of September it also had got 54 fighters (on 17th of September,
after receiving replacements - it had got 100% of its initial strength).
The
only difference was that on 1st of September it had got 44 PZL P-11
fighters, and only 10 - worse than P-11 - PZL P-7 fighters. And on 17th
of September it had got 40 P-11 and 14 P-7.
2. Brygada Bombowa:
On 17th of September it had got 21 PZL 37 A “Łoś” bombers – 60% of its initial strength.
The
day before – on 16th of September – Bomber Brigade made at least 3
bombing raids (in strength of 8 PZL 37 A bombers each) on the columns
of 4. Leichte Divison. Enemy was succesfully bombed without own
casualties.
Both units had been reorganized and constantly moved
on new airports (finally Brygada Pościgowa was moved to Brzeżany in
Romanian Bridgehead) before – so they were not participating in any
major combats for the long time. But on 16th / 17th of September both
units were combat-ready again.
Luftwaffe’s “amazing succeses” in
the Polish Campaign are myths. Of course there were several succeses
and Luftwaffe had some influence on the course of the war.
But
Luftwaffe didn't manage to eliminate Polish Air Force. By the way -
Polish air units suffered bigger casualties due to enemy AA fire,
accidents and breakdowns (and problems with spare parts / lack of spare
parts), and due to friendly-fire of Polish - especcialy - AA defence.
I
have a breakdown of Polish planes captured in Poland by the Soviet
Ukrainian Front only - total 254 planes. Another more than 200 planes
evacuated to Romania. Some more evacuated to Hungary, and some
accidentialy landed in USSR and were captured there. There was also a
number of planes shot down by Russians or captured / shot down by
Germans after 17th of September. Some more planes were destroyed by the
Poles on the ground, because the Poles didn't want them to be captured
by either Soviets or Germans.
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Posted By: Domen
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 23:27
What I am really interested in is the Polish units of the later
stages of the war, those units were among the best the allies ever had,
can you give info about Polish units performance in North Africa?
Al-Jassas
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Yes, I'll give some info about them later. When it comes to Africa, the Poles took part for example in the battle for Tobruk (Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Karpackich - SBSK - Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade - took part in the battle of Tobruk). But also in several other operations - I'll provide some info about them soon. There was also famous "Circus of Skalski" - air fighters unit which was fighting over North Africa and had got great efficiency, gaining many air victories. It is true that they were among the best the Allies had - but they simply could not be not among the best, because they were formed only out of volunteers, and only out of those who survived every previous catastrophes and managed to escape to Britain, France, from USSR with general Anders - etc. So there were only soldiers who really wanted to fight and really knew how to fight, the majority of whom had got experience from the Polish Campaign and the majority of whom were among those who never surrendered during the Polish Campaign. In the later stages of the war, also former soldiers of Wehrmacht of Polish descent, were often serving in the Polish forces which were fighting together with Western Allies (they were usually captured prisoners from Wehrmacht and those who escaped from it).
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Posted By: Red4tribe
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2008 at 20:43
Overall, the Poles fought as hard as they could, the Germans were just stronger.
It kind of reminds me of the Battle for the Hague in the Netherlands. The German paratroopers landed around three airfields, took them with heavy casualties, and then lost them later that day. More can be read about this battle in Battle For The Hague 1940 by E. H. Brongers.
------------- Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.
George Washington - March 15, 1783
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Posted By: Domen
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2009 at 22:39
The last picture is most probably from the later battle - probably from
the battle of Janów Lubelski (maybe combat near Rzęsna Ruska against
Panzer-Regiment 15. from the 5. Panzer-Division). But maybe it is also
from the battle of Jaworów - Sądowa Wisznia - I'm not shure:
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Picture is showing some other combat (probably one of combats with tanks of Panzer-Regiment 15. from 5. Panzer-Division near Rzęsna Ruska - near Lwów - on 18th of September or later):
Oberst Streich - commander of Panzer-Regiment 15. - one of the most talented Panzerwaffe officers (during the battle of Pszczyna, after Oberst Schuckelt was defeated and escaped from his units on 1st of September, he rescued the situation for the Germans and later gained victory in combat near Ćwiklice on 2nd of September. He also was with his units all the time, while Oberst Schuckelt could not be found anywhere in the evening and during the night 1./2. IX - he came back to his units in the early morning on 2nd of September):
http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oberststreichsz0.jpg">
Here most probably not Mużyłowice - but Czarnokońce or Rogoźno - so the same battle - and the same / similar German units:
I'm not shure if these four photos are showing the same place as two previous ones:
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