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Chinese Security and Geopolitics

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: AE Geopolitical Institute
Forum Discription: Implications of Strategic Policies.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24639
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 02:07
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Topic: Chinese Security and Geopolitics
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Subject: Chinese Security and Geopolitics
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 01:06
China has been ordained as a great power by the contemporary media.  But is she really?
 
Let's discuss the "traditional security concerns" China has with her perceptions of state security.  These are concerns as seen by China's ruling elites (those elites are primarily the PRC Communist Party aparatus and, maybe just as important, the leadership of the People's Liberation Army).
 
1)  As far as traditional security concerns, perhaps Russia is the least of them these days, although Russia can never be discounted.  Chinese weight of population, strategic depth along the western border regions (including Kazakhstan) and the modernization of Chinese industry, technology and military forces have changed the balance that favored the USSR until the 1990s.  Russia, longer term, seems to have more to be concerned with in this bipolar relationship.
 
2)  China's primary issue remains US hegemony in east Asia.  Japan, as a US ally, is a forward position from where US military influence can be projected. 
 
South Korea, increasingly, sees its economic interests intertwined with China, and US policy will likely reduce the presence of the US on the east Asian mainland.  Taiwan, already a trading partner with the PRC, also is likely to gravitate increasingly toward the Chinese economy.  Direct US military presence there is minimal, so the drive for reunification on mainland terms can be expected.
 
3)  India is seen by the Chinese elites as a direct threat to Chinese interests both in the high Himalayas and in Burma.  Both these regions are of interest to China primarily for geopolitical reason alone.
 
The physical problems are very great, but despite the natural barrier posed by the Himalayas, modern technology can project power both by air, and airlift capability; and there are numerous passes that, while high and very difficult, could be developed for transportation at least some months of the year.  The most likely transportation use would be military.  Control of much, or all, of this geography, in that case, would facilitate military movement - for positioning or for influence - both out of, and down into the subcontinent.  (The geopolitical logic for Chinese control of Tibet, and for Indian control of much of Kashmir, thus becomes more clear.)  This development is not likely short term, but it could be at some later time.
 
Chinese influence in Burma is also primarily geopolitical.  The WW II roads that supplied China and kept her in the war are still routes that can be improved for communication from Yunnan to what the Chinese would expect to be an outlet to the Indian Ocean.  This could also bring China into conflict with India.  For India, Bangladesh, almost entirely dependant on India for her security, presents a possible expanded staging area for operations toward the east (Burma).
 
Chinese support of, and political cover (in the UN) for, Burma's military government is predicated on Chinese geopolitical interests.
 
4)  Less critical in the near term is the historically problematic relationship of China and the states of IndoChina, particularly Viet Nam.  However, Sino-Vietnamese hostility cannot be discounted.  Viet Nam has increasingly been approaching non-Chinese partners for development, business, and to some small degree strategic reasons.  In a Sino-Indian relationship that might develop along confrontational lines, IndoChina might be a geographically close, and crucial area of competition and confrontation.
 
China still has far to go to be a superpower.  Her position and influence in much of east Asia is substantial, but she remains a land power, somewhat isolated from the necessary sources of very large, and very critical natural resource needs.  It is to be expected that, in the coming years, as competition for resources is expected to increase, China will need to address issues of conflicting interests and perhaps for conflict itself with a number of other powers.
 
Comments?  Points of view?  discussion?
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 03:59
China can never become a superpower like USA.

China's geographical position is not favourable for her to develop into such a power.

China is encircled by Russia to the north, India to the south and Japan in the east.

If China starts to aspire to be the hegemon and seeks to call the shots to these three states, they will naturally form an alliance against China.

Due to these factors, China can only be a great power in asia but not hegemon of asia.

USA is the first and will be the last superpower.

In the future, there will be no more superpowers but many strong powers.


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 07:25
According to William Engdahl's analysis, China must solve two problems in order to emerge as a truely strong global power:

In recent years major attention has been paid to the emergence of a China economic colossus. What is generally missing in these discussions is the fact that China will not be able to emerge as a truly independent global power over the coming decade unless it is able to solve two strategic vulnerabilities—its growing dependence on energy imports for its economic growth, and its inability to pose a credible nuclear deterrence to a US nuclear first strike...

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Russian_Giant/russian_giant.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Russian_Giant/russian_giant.html


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 12:00
great subject Pike.

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

China has been ordained as a great power by the contemporary media.  But is she really?
 
Let's discuss the "traditional security concerns" China has with her perceptions of state security.  These are concerns as seen by China's ruling elites (those elites are primarily the PRC Communist Party aparatus and, maybe just as important, the leadership of the People's Liberation Army).
This is how understand their concerns.

  1. Remaining in power. The CCP will always put itself first and do anything to remain on top.
  2. Securing their periphery. Strong centralist understanding of power. Otherwise it could lose territory. Think Taiwan and Qing legacy (non Han) holdings on their periphery.
  3. Securing resources and their transport routes. South China sea <> Straights of Malacca <> Bay of Bengal <> Indian ocean and as well as the Pacific.
  4. Projecting regional power/influence, via economic, diplomatic and militray means. So to neutralise any other competing power *1 USA 2 India 3 Russia*and help all of the previous points remain so
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

1)  As far as traditional security concerns, perhaps Russia is the least of them these days, although Russia can never be discounted.  Chinese weight of population, strategic depth along the western border regions (including Kazakhstan) and the modernization of Chinese industry, technology and military forces have changed the balance that favored the USSR until the 1990s.  Russia, longer term, seems to have more to be concerned with in this bipolar relationship.
concur, i think right now the US bogey keeps them together in the CA region. Though Russia should watch its east as well as their west/southWink. To me Siberia is more vulnerable than the CA region.

The nuclear advantage should keep Russia territory secure for now, though it needs to try a little harder in keeping in with the Indians (and learn toshare this relationship with the west). joint work on 5th gen fighters for instance will help them keep ahead or at least up with the Chinese who haven't over taken them yet but certainly can.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

2)  China's primary issue remains US hegemony in east Asia.  Japan, as a US ally, is a forward position from where US military influence can be projected.
They dont like being hemmed in. Guam, independent Taiwan, Sth Korea, Philippines. Goes back to the securing transport routes and projecting power. While the USA has advantage in these countries and the pacific fleet, China cant secure its reources routes and therefore will be vulnerable to choke points.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

South Korea, increasingly, sees its economic interests intertwined with China, and US policy will likely reduce the presence of the US on the east Asian mainland.  Taiwan, already a trading partner with the PRC, also is likely to gravitate increasingly toward the Chinese economy.  Direct US military presence there is minimal, so the drive for reunification on mainland terms can be expected.
I dont think they will gravitate so easily, Taiwan while being more intermeshed also seems to oscillate between independence and friendliness. The PRC rhetoric when harsh, can push Taiwan voters the other way. So they have learnt to shut up more than let say the Clinton era. i don't know how sustainable the smiling, friendly giant charade can work for. Recent protests worked against them, even in Asia.

 *i have to go but i will try and discuss my understanding of the rest of the issues you pointed out, later tonight*


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 12:07
The "China threat" theory is probably propagated by USA to serve their own political agenda.

This is similar to the "Iraq threat" propaganda put out by Bush regime.

...Manning wrote that Bush was so worried, so upset, over the failure of the UN inspectors to find weapons of mass destruction, that he talked about three ways to, quote, “provoke a confrontation with Hussein,” one of which, Bush said, was to, quote, “fly U2 aircraft, reconnaissance aircraft, over Iraq, falsely painted in United Nations colors,” and Bush said if Hussein fires upon them, this will be a breach of UN resolutions and justify war.

So here we have George Bush telling the American people, telling the world, that Hussein was an imminent threat to the security of this country, so we had to strike first in self-defense, but behind closed doors, this very small man was talking about how to provoke Hussein into a war...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/13/citing_iraq_war_renowned_attorney_vincent%20 - http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/13/citing_iraq_war_renowned_attorney_vincent


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 14:31
Originally posted by Bankotsu

The "China threat" theory is probably propagated by USA to serve their own political agenda.

This is similar to the "Iraq threat" propaganda put out by Bush regime.

...Manning wrote that Bush was so worried, so upset, over the failure of the UN inspectors to find weapons of mass destruction, that he talked about three ways to, quote, “provoke a confrontation with Hussein,” one of which, Bush said, was to, quote, “fly U2 aircraft, reconnaissance aircraft, over Iraq, falsely painted in United Nations colors,” and Bush said if Hussein fires upon them, this will be a breach of UN resolutions and justify war.

So here we have George Bush telling the American people, telling the world, that Hussein was an imminent threat to the security of this country, so we had to strike first in self-defense, but behind closed doors, this very small man was talking about how to provoke Hussein into a war...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/13/citing_iraq_war_renowned_attorney_vincent%20 - http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/13/citing_iraq_war_renowned_attorney_vincent
 
Please do not distract from the topic at hand.  This subforum is intended for discussion of geopolitical issues.  Agendas that result in tangential argument can be accomodated in other places on the Forum.
 
The moderators do not want this subforum to become a dumping ground for either partisan ideology or for discussion of conspiracy theories.
 
Geography, physical features of the Earth, maritime choke points, etc., are all as indifferent to ideology as they are to "pretend history."
 
How George got the US (and the West/Japan combine) into Mesopotamia has been beaten to death long since.  More important is why they are there - geographical realities and how that interplays with Russian, central Asian, Iranian and Indian (and also Chinese) interests, and with European/Japanese economic necessity.
 
There is, IMHO, plenty there to discuss, absent arguments over propaganda machines. 
 
Thanks very much for your understanding and cooperation.


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 14:37
So what is the topic at hand?

It doesn't seem to be clear.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 14:39
Read the first post in the topic.
 
 


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 14:44
China has been ordained as a great power by the contemporary media.  But is she really?


So my view is the "China threat" theory is probably propagated by USA to serve their own political agenda.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 15:07
Originally posted by Bankotsu

China has been ordained as a great power by the contemporary media.  But is she really?


So my view is the "China threat" theory is probably propagated by USA to serve their own political agenda.
 
That was he first line in the topic.  Please read the rest of it.  Wink
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 15:11
With respect to India, its like the Patton-Monty rivalry, it existed only in Patton (who is in this case India) mind. Geography precludes India or China from influencing each other except on the periphery, India sees Chinese influence in the insurgencies in the North East, and the China threat as a convinient excuse to raise new formations which are for Pakistan.


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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:17
There doesn't seem to have been much attention to the development of Chinese influence in Burma.  The old Burma Road and the "Stillwell Road" are routes along which China can export manufactured products and also import oil from the Middle East.  The access to the Indian Ocean afforded by Burma presents both opportunity and problems for China.
 
As Sparten indicates, India's domestic insurgencies in its northeast areas are seen (and possibly are) Chinese influenced.  Detaching small, weak areas from India in that region would help to incease Chinese influence in what could then become an additional buffer to the Burma-Indian Ocean communications. 
 
I doubt that this is a major effort, but those insurgencies get support from somewhere, and it is another distraction from other unresolved issues along remote borders.....and perhaps now from Nepal.  There, a relatively long border now adjoins India where there is no longer a Hindu monarchy, and where "Maoist" influence remains a factor. 
 
In the case of Burma, Chinese influence may possibly be countered by India's developing naval capacity.  That could affect, or if necessary, interdict commerce coming from the Indian Ocean.  Naval strength "in being" can be used as both a bargaining chip and a threat.
 
 


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:34
Note:  I don't want to give the impression that China/India relations in Burma are solely strategic in nature, but this is a forum for much of that discussion.
 
Imports and exports going through Rangoon have increased substantially in the last couple of years.  Development of Burmese deposits of oil and gas are important, not only for China, but Bangladesh and other regional states.  Some of the geopolitics will be handled by business deals and subsidy diplomacy.  If serious problems arise, well, that is why states pay for military forces.
 
 


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:45
The China-India rivalry is always there, but there is also room for cooperation.

India takes the high ground against China
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JF14Df02.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JF14Df02.html

For a new order
http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20080620251205200.htm - http://www.flonnet.com/stories/




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:00

India's Navy is going to be far too committed in a Pakistan senario to be of any influence in the west. 90% of India's crude oil come from the gulf, where ships have to pass within visual range of Pakistani air and naval bases. Not tom mention Indias main Sea lanes via Suez and the cape have to run the gauntlet of Pakistani air, sea and sub assets.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:02
India essentially dose not control half of its territory at any given time it should be remembered. Any many of them are near the Chinese border.

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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:11
Originally posted by Sparten

India essentially dose not control half of its territory at any given time it should be remembered. Any many of them are near the Chinese border.
 
The Asia Times article, linked above, states some information about Chinese incursions into "Indian territory," India's concern over China's military buildup, and, geographically perhaps more important, China's "robust road-building activity along all sectors of the Sino-Indian border." 
 
Those remote areas are a long way from being important economically.
 
 


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:15
Originally posted by Sparten

With respect to India, its like the Patton-Monty rivalry, it existed only in Patton (who is in this case India) mind. Geography precludes India or China from influencing each other except on the periphery, India sees Chinese influence in the insurgencies in the North East, and the China threat as a convinient excuse to raise new formations which are for Pakistan.
they had a border war and haven't resolved it yet. What they seem to have agreed to do, is not bring it up. To Delhi's north  Nepal is coming under PRC influence, to the east Burma is already there, and of course Pakistan on the west side. IIRC Maoist rebels are quite strong in Bihar, though i don't know how much they have to do with the PRC. If i was them i would try and hedge out some of that and be worried about Sikkim, Assam. India didn't go nuclear because of Pakistan.

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

 
3)  India is seen by the Chinese elites as a direct threat to Chinese interests both in the high Himalayas and in Burma.  Both these regions are of interest to China primarily for geopolitical reason alone.
 
The physical problems are very great, but despite the natural barrier posed by the Himalayas, modern technology can project power both by air, and airlift capability; and there are numerous passes that, while high and very difficult, could be developed for transportation at least some months of the year.  The most likely transportation use would be military.  Control of much, or all, of this geography, in that case, would facilitate military movement - for positioning or for influence - both out of, and down into the subcontinent.  (The geopolitical logic for Chinese control of Tibet, and for Indian control of much of Kashmir, thus becomes more clear.)  This development is not likely short term, but it could be at some later time.
 
yes the Indians are a potential threat in Tibet though that is one hard piece to grab. Beijing see the Tibetan exiles being protected and underhandedly helped by the Indians.

The Indians compete/threaten on many levels,
they have the demographics to match them (only they can do this)and in fact are growing quicker in this regard. they will need more resources
They are now an emerging economy, just behind the Chinese on the growth path, and will compete for resources, investments and business ($$$).
They have the Russians on one hand and the USA all of a sudden on the other, either way with one or both as allies it gives;
  1. the two 'other' big powers access to its Tibetan periphery and Indian ocean sea routes (Burma inc), if India chooses to. Even a potential partner in a future war
  2. vis versa it gives the Indians access to technology and a better edge to do that themselves
Competition in the bay of Bengal would be the most damaging to the chinese and threaten a key supply route for commodities.


Originally posted by pikeshot1600

4)  Less critical in the near term is the historically problematic relationship of China and the states of IndoChina, particularly Viet Nam.  However, Sino-Vietnamese hostility cannot be discounted.  Viet Nam has increasingly been approaching non-Chinese partners for development, business, and to some small degree strategic reasons.  In a Sino-Indian relationship that might develop along confrontational lines, IndoChina might be a geographically close, and crucial area of competition and confrontation.
Vietnam (and Indonesia) have been courted by Russia. I think you may be discounting this to much. Vietnam is an ex vassal state, traditionally speaking. It doesn't comply and is on the same sea route the Chinese want to secure. Burma is already secure, the Indians are the only potential trouble, but realistically China knows that Pakistan will get their attention. Not their eastern side.  But Vietnam is unsecured and (along with what 3/4 others) in dispute about the south china sea. South china sea is second only to Taiwan as far as i see it. Also the tables have turned. Before both were poor rural countries using old Soviet tactics and equipment, China was humbled in the 70's by these guys. Now China is much stronger the Vietnamese, they have a massive edge. Watch that space.




Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:24
Originally posted by Leonidas


  1. Remaining in power. The CCP will always put itself first and do anything to remain on top.
  2. Securing their periphery. Strong centralist understanding of power. Otherwise it could lose territory. Think Taiwan and Qing legacy (non Han) holdings on their periphery.
  3. Securing resources and their transport routes. South China sea <> Straights of Malacca <> Bay of Bengal <> Indian ocean and as well as the Pacific.
  4. Projecting regional power/influence, via economic, diplomatic and militray means. So to neutralise any other competing power *1 USA 2 India 3 Russia*and help all of the previous points remain so


for point three


this is a bit of point three but also about the next point. They don't want to be hemmed in by the USA and its allies japan. Therefore they rather project back over the pacific; open up routes towards Latin america and the  south pacific and deny the USA control from 'their' sea lanes and approaches.




http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2007/2007-prc-military-power.htm - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2007/2007-prc-military-power.htm


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:44

Leonidas, the Indo-China border has always been of a secondary nature to India. of 45 divisions in their army, only 5 are earmarked for China. The rest are all for Pakistan or CI.

 
Pike, those "incursions into Indian territory" need a bit of clarification. Its the world worst mountainous terrain. The "incursions" mean attack on isolated desolate mountain posts. Nobody except the govs propganda arm and the local sector commander is concerned about losing or gaining a few posts, you can always retaliate elsewhere. Last year in kashmir, we captured like 36 posts. No doubt the Indians captured as many as well. It make no difference on the ground. The only practicle mountain passes into S Asia for a Chinese army or vice versa, are either via Nepal, or Pakistan, (The Khujarab Pass). Nepal is all but lost for Bahrat.
 
Leonidas, India became nuclear because of Pakistan not China, the Chinese threat was never a factor after the '65 war in their strategic thinking except as a contigency. The '74 test was due to power perceptions. They did not weaponsise it then. Pakistan began its programme in response to India, but weaponised it pretty soon due to the Soviet presence on the west. They followed suit.


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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 21:01
Sparten,
 
Thanks for the clarification "on the ground." Smile
 
I had read about two historic passes that are close enough together to be one route down into the plains of the subcontinent.  One was "killak ?" and I understood that, although unpaved it was passable all year.  Both these passes I think were close to Indian Kashmir.
 
The way over the pass you mentioned is relatively modern and recently paved, etc.  If the others are passable, what is the strategic thinking about their usability, or development for strategic purposes?  Was Khujarab finished because it is further away from Indian Kashmir?
 
As far as Nepal, until the Hindu kingdom was abolished, I hadn't thought much about it.  Now things may be viewed with some concern by the Indian general staff.  I don't know the passes there at all.  Help us!
 
 


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 21:17
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by Leonidas


  1. Remaining in power. The CCP will always put itself first and do anything to remain on top.
  2. Securing their periphery. Strong centralist understanding of power. Otherwise it could lose territory. Think Taiwan and Qing legacy (non Han) holdings on their periphery.
  3. Securing resources and their transport routes. South China sea <> Straights of Malacca <> Bay of Bengal <> Indian ocean and as well as the Pacific.
  4. Projecting regional power/influence, via economic, diplomatic and militray means. So to neutralise any other competing power *1 USA 2 India 3 Russia*and help all of the previous points remain so


for point three


this is a bit of point three but also about the next point. They don't want to be hemmed in by the USA and its allies japan. Therefore they rather project back over the pacific; open up routes towards Latin america and the  south pacific and deny the USA control from 'their' sea lanes and approaches.




http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2007/2007-prc-military-power.htm - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2007/2007-prc-military-power.htm
 
What is described in these two maps is China's drive to dominate southeat Asia for their security needs.  From Burma to the Straits to Taiwan is a geographic crescent that is not unlike the Japanese sphere during WW II.
 
As we are all frustrated historians, I see in this whole concept, a rhyme in historical meter.
 
An Asian nation, homogeneous in population, bereft of much in the way of natural resources, needing to control key geographical features, (and to block out the United States with a defensive perimeter) for perceived security needs.
 
Hmmm....can anyone say "co-prosperity sphere?"  The game doesn't change, but the roster of players does.
 
Unlike the 1941 Japanese, the Chinese lack the naval muscle, but 50 years from now, it may be otherwise.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 21:23

Oh they have lots of passes into and out of China. The ones which are useful militarily, meaning can be used for operations, only exist in either Pakistan or in Nepal. There is one or two which causes concern, but niether can support a full fledge military operation. By this I mean a corps plus operation (or an army plus in Chinese parlance).

 
By the way I noticed I mispelled Khunjerab. here is the obligatory wiki link.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khunjerab_Pass - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khunjerab_Pass
 
It connects a Chinese province (whose name escapes me now) with the territory of the N Areas.
 
It is the main route from the Sub Continent (though the N Areas is on the Eurasian plate it is still considered sub-continent) to China. The old silk route. There is one in Nepal.
 
There is a strategic road which connects the pass to China, called the Karakorum Highway, the worlds highest road.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway
 
It is scray, the bridges, a ten thousand foot drop. Like being in an airplane. I had some pics. If I can find them I'll post them.
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 21:29
Nepal, a lot depends on the new government. Maoists and communists are an anorchism generally, and especially in the region. If they can improve standard of living etc and offer some properity (ordinarily a long shot for Maoists, but Chinese cash may help) then India may see it being lost for good. If the act like predictable Maoists, which is destroying the source of wealth in their zeal to distribute it more equally, then its anybodys guess what happens.

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 06:48
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

[An Asian nation, homogeneous in population, bereft of much in the way of natural resources, needing to control key geographical features, (and to block out the United States with a defensive perimeter) for perceived security needs.
 
Hmmm....can anyone say "co-prosperity sphere?"  The game doesn't change, but the roster of players does.
funnily enough the same perimeter is used by the USA to protect the pacific (USA) from the east and project into Asia. Its the same logic in reverse.

One item that comes up in CCP language, is the introverted  belief of china's of traditional rights over external disputed territories. This has more to do with CCP legitimacy and authority (inc on its own internal periphery), by the way of nationalism and is more related to the first point i made. That is the moral right dimension in the logic of Beijing
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Unlike the 1941 Japanese, the Chinese lack the naval muscle, but 50 years from now, it may be otherwise.
 
 
The Chinese navy building is accelerating every year. I think the first island chain they are looking at is realistic within a much shorter time frame. I guess, Taiwan would be the first move,  south china sea would be next, they wont aggressively push the claims over the Japanese until after those two have been secured (in any order). Japan has the navy to match them for quite a while yet, other Asian powers don't.

Holding Taiwan would put them in the box seat for any future projections and punch through any US cordon. Its also can cut the same maritime supply routes (it depends on) from the Japanese and Koreans who are even more reliant on it for their energy needs. While the sweetener is , it also makes it more problematic for Russia to reassert in SE Asia. Taiwan adds to both their defensive position and gives them an advantage over their east Asian rivals with a powerful choke hold.

The second island chain would require a massive and advanced blue water fleet to match the USA which will not happen anytime soon, nor without a real fight.



Posted By: Aussiedude
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 07:53

My own analysis of the Chinese geopolitical situation:

Their are 6 major trade and resource zones that will predominate Chinese concerns in security concerns:
1)The Red Sea/Suez(Europe)
2)The Persian Gulf (oil)
3)Central Asia(oil/gas)
4)Australia(numerous mining resources)
5)Siberia(Oil, mining resouces etc)
6)And, of course the Pacific trade routes, paticularly within the 2 island chains(Taiwan/Japan, the Americas)
 
These are all massively threatened.
1/2)The Red Sea/Suez trade route have the Strait of Aden and Hormuz respectively as choke points. Besides that, they both need to cross south of India. From their, the trade route can reach China via Burma, the Malay strait of the Java-Sumatra strait. The former is exposed to India. The second to India. The last is the most secure, so long as Indonesian/Chinese relations are not hostile
 
3/5) Are secure so long as Russo-Chinese relations are amicable.
 
4)Is secure so long as the Chinese can cross through the first island chain, and Indonesian and Australian relations are not hostile. Unfortuanately, Australia is firmly under Americas wing. 
 
6.1)The trade with other East Asian nations. Easily secured so long as Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are amicable.
 
6.2) The trade accross the greater Pacific, primarily with the Americas... totally dependant on the US for the forseeable future.
 
In conclusion, China cannot afford outright hostility with both the US or Russia, as hostility with the India is almost certain. The three combined can totally annihiliate China's economy. Fortunately, Russia and China have a secure position as allies, while the US cannot afford the annihiliation of China's economy- itr would collapse its own... the biggest threat to China is that the US may be forced to deny the other nations oil lest its own economy collpase. Fortunatley, in such a scenario, the US will have to face the combined might of much of the world powers....
 
China's foreign policy, assuming the US will shirk from conflict except in the most extreme energy crisis, is thus twofold- limit the intake of foreign resources, paticularly oil resources taken from along sea routes. And focus on encircling and isolating India- which will be China's primary rival for the forseeable future, not the US or Russia. 
 
Hence focus should not be on the Pacific island chains. but on developing the capacity along with Burma and Pakistan to essentially smother India's foreign trade, should need be. Critical in ensuring this will be prising Iran and Bangaldesh away from their ties to India, as well as focusing on building ties with the Maldives, Ceylon, and the states of other trade chokepoints(of both India and China) to ensure that China and co has the capacity to both secure its own resource routes and cut India's. In essence, China must ensure that it, not India, dominates the Indian Ocean, while securing either the Burma of South China Sea trade route as "safe" from being cut by another nation. The Pacific Ocean is of secondary importance.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 09:36

The Chinese solution to 1 and 2 is to ship it to Pakistan meaning Gwader, then send it overland.

 
 


-------------


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 15:26
Aussiedude:
 
It is difficult to visualize China being able to isolate India.  India holds the strong geographic position at the center of trade routes across the Indian Ocean.
 
It is even more difficult to see China being able to dominate the Indian Ocean.
 
China, it seems to me is the power in the more disadvantageous position geopolitically:
 
As Sparten has explained, the physical barrier of the Himalayas precludes more than mostly low intensity capability in the high mountains.  This is the case for both powers, and their conflict there will most likely remain a matter of positioning for future influence (over river headwaters; proximity to the few transport routes, political influence in the barrier states, etc.). 
 
China's ability to project power down into the subcontinent, as India's the opposite way, seems minimal along the mountain barrier.  Too many logistical, distance and infrastructure issues for more than low intensity operations.  That leaves a peripheral approach.  
 
China's prospect of dominating oceanic trade routes anywhere other than the South China Sea seems very unlikely.  The expansion and modernization of PLA naval assets has been heavily concentrated in short endurance, defensive systems, at the expense of longer range systems that might facilitate power projection.  Under this cover, gradual consolidation of PRC influence over the route from Malaya to the Koreas can be conceived.
 
However (big however), Without the ability to control the Straits (Malacca/Jombok/Sunda) that does not put them in any strong position in event of a crisis that might require a military response.  That ability does not seem likely in view of China's previous failed attempts to affect both Malaya in the 1950s and Indonesia in the 1960s.
 
Canal proposals and pipeline proposals across Thailand's isthmus may at some future time mitigate those chokepoints, but will not eliminate the need for their control.  Also, man made shortcuts can be put out of commission in times of conflict.
 
China's access to the Indian ocean will remain through Pakistan over the high mountain route, and Burma over the "Burma road."  Both of those can be impacted by India's military capabilities.  Indian Ocean island chains, far detached from the mainland, and Ceylon's choke point, close by India, cannot bypass the two land access routes.
 
China's major source for oil is more likely to be addressed by overland routes from central Asia, which can be more secure.  China's trade routes to the Western hemisphere are totally dependant on relations with the US.  Their resource routes from Africa, and as long as necessary from the Gulf, will be dependant on both US and Indian interests.    
 
China has too many geostrategic issues to be able to dominate other geographies.  This is to say nothing of the domestic, non-traditional security issues she faces at home.
 
 


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 15:39
China's major source for oil is more likely to be addressed by overland routes from central Asia, which can be more secure.  China's trade routes to the Western hemisphere are totally dependant on relations with the US.  Their resource routes from Africa, and as long as necessary from the Gulf, will be dependant on both US and Indian interests.
 

Here is an analysis of the competition over oil in Africa:

Darfur? It’s the Oil, Stupid…
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Oil_in_Africa/oil_in_africa.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics



China has too many geostrategic issues to be able to dominate other geographies.


I agree. China's geographical position is not favourable for superpower status.

Great power in asia is more likely.


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 12:15
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

China's ability to project power down into the subcontinent, as India's the opposite way, seems minimal along the mountain barrier.  Too many logistical, distance and infrastructure issues for more than low intensity operations.  That leaves a peripheral approach.  
they still have a http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/CJB.htm -


Posted By: Aussiedude
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 06:15
Originally posted by Sparten

The Chinese solution to 1 and 2 is to ship it to Pakistan meaning Gwader, then send it overland.

 
 
Indeed, I had not thought of that. Indeed, it not neccesrily even be shipped: It could cross the Iran/Pakistan border.
Main issue- vulnerability of Kashmir region.


Posted By: Aussiedude
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:53
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Aussiedude:
 
It is difficult to visualize China being able to isolate India.  India holds the strong geographic position at the center of trade routes across the Indian Ocean.
 
It is even more difficult to see China being able to dominate the Indian Ocean.
 
China, it seems to me is the power in the more disadvantageous position geopolitically:
 
As Sparten has explained, the physical barrier of the Himalayas precludes more than mostly low intensity capability in the high mountains.  This is the case for both powers, and their conflict there will most likely remain a matter of positioning for future influence (over river headwaters; proximity to the few transport routes, political influence in the barrier states, etc.). 
 
China's ability to project power down into the subcontinent, as India's the opposite way, seems minimal along the mountain barrier.  Too many logistical, distance and infrastructure issues for more than low intensity operations.  That leaves a peripheral approach.  
 
China's prospect of dominating oceanic trade routes anywhere other than the South China Sea seems very unlikely.  The expansion and modernization of PLA naval assets has been heavily concentrated in short endurance, defensive systems, at the expense of longer range systems that might facilitate power projection.  Under this cover, gradual consolidation of PRC influence over the route from Malaya to the Koreas can be conceived.
 
However (big however), Without the ability to control the Straits (Malacca/Jombok/Sunda) that does not put them in any strong position in event of a crisis that might require a military response.  That ability does not seem likely in view of China's previous failed attempts to affect both Malaya in the 1950s and Indonesia in the 1960s.
 
Canal proposals and pipeline proposals across Thailand's isthmus may at some future time mitigate those chokepoints, but will not eliminate the need for their control.  Also, man made shortcuts can be put out of commission in times of conflict.
 
China's access to the Indian ocean will remain through Pakistan over the high mountain route, and Burma over the "Burma road."  Both of those can be impacted by India's military capabilities.  Indian Ocean island chains, far detached from the mainland, and Ceylon's choke point, close by India, cannot bypass the two land access routes.
 
China's major source for oil is more likely to be addressed by overland routes from central Asia, which can be more secure.  China's trade routes to the Western hemisphere are totally dependant on relations with the US.  Their resource routes from Africa, and as long as necessary from the Gulf, will be dependant on both US and Indian interests.    
 
China has too many geostrategic issues to be able to dominate other geographies.  This is to say nothing of the domestic, non-traditional security issues she faces at home.
 
 
Your assuming China would need to maintain a oceanic link between the South China sea and Indian Ocean in wartime to blocakade India. Your wrong.
 
China need only build up its forces in Burmese, Pakistani(and any other Indian Ocean allies) naval bases in PEACE TIME, in coalition with Burmese and Pakistani fleets also built up with Chinese funds.
 
In otherwords, they can have an indirect presence on the Indian Ocean via Burma and Pakistan, and any other allies they can secure, while getting most of their own fleet to said nations harbours during peace time. Thus, they could keep open the Indian Ocean trade routes through Pakistan and Burma, who would both be the path the trade took and the base from which it is defended.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 11:44
Originally posted by Aussiedude

Originally posted by Sparten

The Chinese solution to 1 and 2 is to ship it to Pakistan meaning Gwader, then send it overland.

 
 
Indeed, I had not thought of that. Indeed, it not neccesrily even be shipped: It could cross the Iran/Pakistan border.
Main issue- vulnerability of Kashmir region.
 
The highway gose through the NWFP province and the N Areas territory, bypassing Kashmir totally. Its has never been threathened in 4 wars.
 


-------------


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:03
Blockading India seems to me to be not possible:
 
1)  This assumes that India's other trading partners and allies will just stand aside.
 
2)  This also assumes Burma and Pakistan as bases for naval forces (and any others) will accept Indian retaliation for what are essentially Chinese interests.
 
3)  The probability of China developing forward positioning in the rest of the Indian ocean littoral is not likely primarily because other powers already have access to all of it, or it is indefensible.  The Maldives, for example, are too close to India to be usable, and, with rising sea levels expected in the next half century, by the time China develops a useable blue water navy the Maldives will be mostly submerged.
 
Two points here:  First, In the 1980s (I think) Indian special forces prevented a coup in the Maldives that would have been unfavorable to Indian interests.  Just like US intervention in Grenada in anticipation of USSR positioning, the first hint of that will result in strategic response before the suspected event.
 
Second, I have heard the argument that "Oh, so it's underwater.  Just use submarines."  Confused  Well, navy yards require a lot of infrastructure and support which submerged Maldives within range of India won't have, and that is not counting the extremely long and, in times of conflict, unsustainable lines of supply such a distant place would entail.
 
I don't see it as realistic.  In the Indian Ocean, China has huge vulnerabilities that are not going to be addressed by normal capabilities, if at all.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:17
That coup collapsed due to lack of support, not cause of anything Indians did. India has big logistical problems, on land sea and air. In the last deployment in 2002, their armour heavy corps (I, II and XXI) took 6 weeks to move to the border, compared with one week for ours. And in their deployments overseas like Sri Lanka, their supply lines all but collapsed. They are working on it definatly, but then they have been working on it since '65.


-------------


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:38
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Just like US intervention in Grenada in anticipation of USSR positioning,


Didn't know that was the motive.

Was that the real motive or just pretext?

http://libcom.org/history/1983-the-us-invasion-of-grenada - http://libcom.org/history/1983-the-us-invasion-of-grenada
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/10/remembering_reagans_invasion_of_grenada - http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/10/remembering
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/history/2003/10grenada.htm - http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/history/2003/10grenada.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Grenada_KH.html - http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Grenada_KH.html


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:44
oh god not here.


-------------


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:45
Originally posted by Sparten

That coup collapsed due to lack of support, not cause of anything Indians did. India has big logistical problems, on land sea and air. In the last deployment in 2002, their armour heavy corps (I, II and XXI) took 6 weeks to move to the border, compared with one week for ours. And in their deployments overseas like Sri Lanka, their supply lines all but collapsed. They are working on it definatly, but then they have been working on it since '65.
 
Logistical problems for both, no doubt.  I just think China's are far greater.
 
 


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:47
Originally posted by Sparten

oh god not here.
 
No not here.  The topic is China's security concerns.
 
 


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:53
Sorry, first time I heard that motive of USA invasion of Grenada was about  "in anticipation of USSR positioning", so got curious.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 17:08
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Sparten

That coup collapsed due to lack of support, not cause of anything Indians did. India has big logistical problems, on land sea and air. In the last deployment in 2002, their armour heavy corps (I, II and XXI) took 6 weeks to move to the border, compared with one week for ours. And in their deployments overseas like Sri Lanka, their supply lines all but collapsed. They are working on it definatly, but then they have been working on it since '65.
 
Logistical problems for both, no doubt.  I just think China's are far greater.
 
 
 
Its the chicken and the egg question. Niether can get there.
 


-------------


Posted By: Aussiedude
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 08:39

The large majority of nations involved in signigicant trade with India have more with China...thus, in a conflict for the survival of one or the other economy, they would more likely back China.



Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 11:16
Originally posted by Aussiedude

The large majority of nations involved in signigicant trade with India have more with China...thus, in a conflict for the survival of one or the other economy, they would more likely back China.

thats assumed. India is in with Europe, Russia and USA-Israel, trade has little to do with the power politics. Compare the most recent Indian request for information (leading to a tender) for fighter aircraft vs something from that the PRC has done. You can easily see who has choices and open channels and who doesn't.

Anyway, India is on a similar economic growth path and has different strong points in this regard over the PRC.


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 05:36
China has no plans to 'encircle' India: ambassador
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China_has_no_plans_to_encircle_India_ambassador_999.html - http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China

China ranks third in the world in military expenses
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080618/111158350.html - http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080618/111158350.html

India goes to war in space 
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JF18Df01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 04:28
to add to the thread i have this article from Stratfor.

http:///www.stratfor.com/weekly/chinese_geopolitics_and_significance_tibet - http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/chinese_geopolitics_and_significance_tibet


Chinese Geopolitics and the Significance of Tibet

April 15, 2008 | 0055 GMT

By George Friedman

China is an island. We do not mean it is surrounded by water; we mean China is surrounded by territory that is difficult to traverse. Therefore, China is hard to invade; given its size and population, it is even harder to occupy. This also makes it hard for the Chinese to invade others; not utterly impossible, but quite difficult. Containing a fifth of the world’s population, China can wall itself off from the world, as it did prior to the United Kingdom’s forced entry in the 19th century and under Mao Zedong. All of this means China is a great power, but one that has to behave very differently than other great powers.

Analyzing Chinese Geography

Let’s begin simply by analyzing Chinese geography, looking at two maps. The first represents the physical geography of China.



The second shows the population density not only of China, but also of the surrounding countries.

China’s geography is roughly divided into two parts: a mountainous, arid western part and a coastal plain that becomes hilly at its westward end. The overwhelming majority of China’s population is concentrated in that coastal plain. The majority of China’s territory — the area west of this coastal plain — is lightly inhabited, however. This eastern region is the Chinese heartland that must be defended at all cost.

China as island is surrounded by impassable barriers — barriers that are difficult to pass or areas that essentially are wastelands with minimal population. To the east is the Pacific Ocean. To the north and northwest are the Siberian and Mongolian regions, sparsely populated and difficult to move through. To the south, there are the hills, mountains and jungles that separate China from Southeast Asia; to visualize this terrain, just remember the incredible effort that went into building the Burma Road during World War II. To the southwest lie the Himalayas. In the northwest are Kazakhstan and the vast steppes of Central Asia. Only in the far northeast, with the Russian maritime provinces and the Yalu River separating China from Korea, are there traversable points of contacts. But the balance of military power is heavily in China’s favor at these points.

http://www.stratfor.com/chinas_maritime_dilemma - Strategically, China has two problems , both pivoting around the question of defending the coastal region. First, China must prevent attacks from the sea. This is what the Japanese did in the 1930s, first invading Manchuria in the northeast and then moving south into the heart of China. It is also what the British and other European powers did on a lesser scale in the 19th century. China’s defense against such attacks is size and population. It draws invaders in and then wears them out, with China suffering massive casualties and economic losses in the process.

The second threat to China comes from powers moving in through the underpopulated portion of the west, establishing bases and moving east, or coming out of the underpopulated regions around China and invading. This is what happened during the Mongol invasion from the northwest. But that invasion was aided by tremendous Chinese disunity, as were the European and Japanese incursions.

Beijing’s Three Imperatives

Beijing therefore has three http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitics_china - geopolitical imperatives :

  1. Maintain internal unity so that far powers can’t weaken the ability of the central government to defend China.
  2. Maintain a strong coastal defense to prevent an incursion from the Pacific.
  3. Secure China’s periphery by anchoring the country’s frontiers on impassable geographical features; in other words, hold its current borders.

In short, China’s strategy is to establish an island, defend its frontiers efficiently using its geographical isolation as a force multiplier, and, above all, http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitics_china - maintain the power of the central government over the country, preventing regionalism and factionalism.

We see Beijing struggling to maintain control over China. Its vast security apparatus and interlocking economic system are intended to achieve that. We see Beijing building coastal defenses in the Pacific, including http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/future_missile_defense_east_asia - missiles that can reach deep into the Pacific , in the long run trying to force the U.S. Navy on the defensive. And we see Beijing working to retain control over two key regions: http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary/geopolitical_diary_beijing_eyes_periphery - Xinjiang and http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary/geopolitical_diary_beijings_tibetan_dilemma - Tibet .

Xinjiang is Muslim. This means at one point it was invaded by Islamic forces. It also means that it can be invaded and become a highway into the Chinese heartland. Defense of the Chinese heartland therefore begins in Xinjiang. So long as Xinjiang is Chinese, Beijing will enjoy a 1,500-mile, inhospitable buffer between Lanzhou — the westernmost major Chinese city and its oil center — and the http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/kazakhstan_and_chinese_connection - border of Kazakhstan . The Chinese thus will hold Xinjiang regardless of Muslim secessionists.

The Importance of Tibet to China

Now look at Tibet on the population density and terrain maps. On the terrain map one sees the high mountain passes of the Himalayas. Running from the Hindu Kush on the border with Pakistan to the Myanmar border, small groups can traverse this terrain, but no major army is going to thrust across this border in either direction. Supplying a major force through these mountains is impossible. From a military point of view, it is a solid wall.

Note that running along the frontier directly south of this border is one of the largest population concentrations in the world. If China were to withdraw from Tibet, and there were no military hindrance to population movement, Beijing fears this population could migrate into Tibet. If there were such a migration, Tibet could turn into an extension of India and, over time, become a http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary/geopolitical_diary_olympics_and_beijings_tibet_paranoia - potential beachhead for Indian power . If that were to happen, India’s strategic frontier would directly abut Sichuan and Yunnan — the Chinese heartland.

The Chinese have a fundamental national interest in retaining Tibet, because Tibet is the Chinese anchor in the Himalayas. If that were open, or if Xinjiang became independent, the vast buffers between China and the rest of Eurasia would break down. The Chinese can’t predict the evolution of Indian, Islamic or Russian power in such a circumstance, and they certainly don’t intend to find out. They will hold both of these provinces, particularly Tibet.

The Chinese note that the Dalai Lama has been in India ever since China invaded Tibet. The Chinese regard him as an Indian puppet. They see the latest unrest in Tibet as instigated by the Indian government, which uses the Dalai Lama to try to destabilize the Chinese hold on Tibet and open the door to Indian expansion. To put it differently, their view is that the Indians could shut the Dalai Lama down if they wanted to, and that they don’t signals Indian complicity.

It should be added that the Chinese see the American hand behind this as well. Apart from public statements of support, http://www.stratfor.com/india_u_s_washington_grooms_new_delhi - the Americans and Indians have formed a strategic partnership since 2001. The Chinese view the United States — which is primarily focused on the Islamic world — as encouraging India and the Dalai Lama to probe the Chinese, partly to embarrass them over the Olympics and partly to increase the stress on the central government. The central government is stretched in maintaining Chinese security as the Olympics approach. The Chinese are distracted. Beijing also notes the similarities between what is happening in Tibet and the “color” revolutions the United States supported and helped stimulate in the former Soviet Union.

It is critical to understand that whatever the issues might be to the West, the Chinese see Tibet as a matter of fundamental national security, and they view pro-Tibetan agitation in the West as an attempt to strike at the heart of Chinese national security. The Chinese are therefore trapped. They are staging the Olympics in order to demonstrate http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/beijings_olympic_gold_may_come_high_price - Chinese cohesion and progress . But they must hold on to Tibet for national security reasons, and therefore their public relations strategy is collapsing. Neither India nor the United States is particularly upset that the Europeans are thinking about canceling attendance at various ceremonies.

A Lack of Countermoves

China has few countermoves to this pressure over Tibet. There is always talk of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. That is not going to happen — not because China doesn’t want to, but because it does not have the naval capability of seizing control of the Taiwan Straits or seizing air superiority, certainly not if the United States doesn’t want it (and we note that http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/u_s_naval_update_map_april_9_2008_0 - the United States has two carrier battle groups in the Taiwan region at the moment). Beijing thus could bombard Taiwan, but not without enormous cost to itself and its own defensive capabilities. It does not have the capability to surge forces across the strait, much less to sustain operations there in anything short of a completely permissive threat environment. The Chinese could fire missiles at Taiwan, but that risks counterstrikes from American missiles. And, of course, Beijing could go nuclear, but that is not likely given the stakes. The most likely Chinese counter here would be trying to http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/china_taiwan_drawing_close_while_drawing_war_plans - isolate Taiwan from shipping by firing missiles . But that again assumes the United States would not respond — something Beijing can’t count on.

While China thus lacks politico-military options to counter the Tibet pressure, it also lacks economic options. It is highly dependent for its economic well-being on exports to the United States and other countries; drawing money out of U.S. financial markets would require Beijing to put it somewhere else. If the Chinese invested in Europe, European interest rates would go down and U.S. rates would go up, and European money would pour into the United States. The long-held fear of the http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/china_and_arabian_peninsula_market_stabilizers - Chinese withdrawing their money from U.S. markets is therefore illusory : The Chinese are trapped economically. Far more than the United States, they can’t afford a confrontation.

That leaves the pressure on Tibet, and China struggling to contain it. Note that Beijing’s first imperative is to maintain China’s internal coherence. China’s great danger is always a weakening of the central government and the development of regionalism. Beijing is far from losing control, but recently we have observed a set of interesting breakdowns. The inability to control events in Tibet is one. Significant shortages of diesel fuel is a second. Shortages of rice and other grains is a third. These are small things, but they are things that should not be happening in a country as well-heeled in terms of cash as China is, and as accustomed as it is to managing security threats.

China must hold Tibet, and it will. The really interesting question is whether the stresses building up on China’s central administration are beginning to degrade its ability to control and manage events. It is easy to understand China’s obsession with Tibet. The next step is to watch China trying to pick up the pieces on a series of administrative miscues. That will give us a sense of the state of Chinese affairs.



I will come back to this article in time, though I think it would be valuable to the topic/thread as a piece of reference in its own right


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 07:38
William Engdahl has written some analytical articles on USA political moves and China's reactions:

Why Washington plays 'Tibet Roulette' with China
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/16/content_6622346.htm - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/16/content

Chokepoint! The Geopolitical Stakes of the Saffron Revolution
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Myanmar/myanmar.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/

USA Outflanked in Eurasia Energy Politics
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Ouflanked/ouflanked.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics

America`s Geopolitical Nightmare and Eurasian Strategic Energy Arrangements
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Nightmare/nightmare.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Nightmare/

China lays down the Gauntlet in Energy War
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/China_Gauntlet/china_gauntlet.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/China_Gauntlet/

Color Revolutions, Geopolitics and the Baku Pipeline
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Color_Revolutions/color_revolutions.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Color_Revolutions/

China and USA in New Cold War over Africa’s oil riches
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Oil_in_Africa/oil_in_africa.html - http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Oil_in_Africa/


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 15:48
Leonidas:
 
The article from stratfor.com is a good summary of China's geostrategic vulnerabilities.  The world press might do well to read material such as this and back off the "inevitability" of Chinese world power.
 
Bankotsu:
 
Thanks for the links.  The denial by the Chinese official of plans to encircle India is grounded in the fact that China hasn't the means of doing so.
 
Mr. Engdahl's articles seem to be a mix of outdated material and some of the usual "China is on the march" alarmism.  That sells well.
 
The concentration on offshore sources of oil by China is the same as everyone else's.  Use what is gettable in peacetime and keep away from other sources for the possibility of crisis in supply.  Also, the strategy, as far as possible, is to deny those resources to adversaries.  The land-accessible oil resources in central Asia will always be more accessible to China (and more secure geographically).  
 
Engdahl's assumption seems to be that only the US and China have oil needs.  Wrong.  Western European and growing Indian naval power in the Indian Ocean are there to secure access to OIL.  China cannot counter that. 
 
The sources of oil in the west of Africa are of critical concern to, among other South American countries, Brazil.  China attempting to ace out other consumers in resource wars will isolate her politically as she is also isolated geographically.  (I find it hard to see black Africans and culturally arrogant Chinese getting along well in the long run.  The same with Latinos.)
 
 
 
 
 
  


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 04:14
 
Engdahl's assumption seems to be that only the US and China have oil needs.


I don't think William Engdahl said or meant that. Just that he is more focused on USA/Russia/China rivalry and political manoeuvres.


Posted By: Aussiedude
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 15:50
I get the feeling that people aren't factoring MAD into the India/China equation.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 23:50
Originally posted by Aussiedude

I get the feeling that people aren't factoring MAD into the India/China equation.
 
MAD is a doomsday scenario.  As long as the respective leaderships are sane, established principles of politics (including military action) are entirely workable under nuclear shileds.  It is almost as if the nuclear capabilities didn't exist. 
 
Look at the Cold War.  Sabres were rattled, but nothing ever happened.  Geopolitics flourished during those decades.
 
Regardless of the arsenals of India and China, I do not think either possesses the numbers or the depth of delivery options of the US and USSR.  Both India and China would have extremely short warning times in the event of a nuclear exchange, and the results might be more catastrophic given, or in spite of, their huge populations.
 
Their nukes are mostly defensive, a threat in being, and force opponents to resort to more conventional means to take advantage and to counter others' advantages. 
 
 


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 00:48
Originally posted by Aussiedude

I get the feeling that people aren't factoring MAD into the India/China equation.
Both powers have a policy of not to be the first users with these weapons. They are quite responsible with their Nukes.
 


Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 04:55
What has the Japanese Navy Ship brought?
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6436639.html - http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90780/

Far Eastern patriot games
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080625/112123490.html - http://en.rian.ru/analysis/

Analysis: Shandong buildup
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Analysis_Shandong_buildup_Part_1_999.html - http://www.spacewar.com/reports/
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China_Deploys_Bomber_Coverage_Of_Korea_And_Taiwan_From_Shandong_Peninsula_999.html - http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China

China toys with India's border 
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JF27Df01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South
http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2004/05/20/mcmahons-line-and-aksai-chin/ - http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2004/05/
http://www.nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621 - http://www.nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation




Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 09:47
Mugabe’s Biggest Sin
Anglo-American and Chinese interests clash over Zimbabwe’s strategic mineral wealth

Robert Mugabe, the President of Zimbabwe, presides over one of the world’s richest minerals treasures, the Great Dyke region, which cuts a geological swath across the entire land from northeast to southwest. The real background to the pious concerns of the Bush Administration for human rights in Zimbabwe in the past several years is not Mugabe’s possible election fraud or his expropriation of white settler farms.

It is the fact that Mr. Mugabe has been quietly doing business, a lot of it, with the one country which has virtually unlimited need of strategic raw materials Zimbabwe can provide—China. Mugabe’s Zimbabwe is, along with Sudan, on the central stage of the new war over control of strategic minerals of Africa between Washington and Beijing, with Moscow playing a supporting role in the drama. The stakes are huge...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9707 - http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9707



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