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Conquest of Madagascar

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of Oceania, South-East Asia and Pacific
Forum Discription: Discuss the history of SE Asia: Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21632
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 09:23
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Topic: Conquest of Madagascar
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Conquest of Madagascar
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 13:10
Thousand of years ago, Indonesian sailors, belonging to the same family of people of Polynesians, sailed west from South East Asia and arrived to Madagascar, just across Africa. They brought theirs culture and technology to that island and influenced the cultures of South East Africa.
 
This is its history
 
Source: http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/objectives.htm - http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/objectives.htm
 
 
 
 
 
 
BOROBUDUR EXPEDITION

The Aim is to build a reconstruction of the 'Borobudur Ship'  (dated to the learly 8th century AD) and to sail it from Indonesia to Africa.   http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/chartgallery-route.htm - view voyage route .....

The Objectives
The expedition plans to make a j
ourney that will recreate the ancient trading voyages between the two regions and demonstrate that this was the most likely vessel to have been responsible for spreading Indonesian influence and trade to Madagascar and the African mainland.  

Cultural Links
One of the objectives of the Borobudur Ship Expedition is to highlight the cultural influence that Indonesia and Asia contributed to the Indian Ocean and Africa during the first millennium AD. This is a complex story with many strands and differing interpretations. However, whilst there are many possible links, there are three main influences and activities that stand out.  http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/cultural_links.htm - read more .....

http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/temple01.htm">
The Borobudur Temple
( CLICK IMAGE to enlarge to full page )

The Borobudur Temple 
Borobudur is one of the most impressive monuments ever created by man. It is both a temple and a complete exposition of doctrine, designed as a whole, and completed as it was designed, with only one major afterthought. It seems to have provided a pattern for Hindu temple mountains at Angkor (see above Cambodia and Vietnam), and in its own day it must have been one of the wonders of the Asian world. Built about 800, it probably fell into neglect by about 1000 and was overgrown. It was excavated and restored by the Dutch between 1907 and 1911.  http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/ships-history.htm - read more .....

Background Information  
Borobudur is the worlds largest Buddhist Stupa and was built in Java, Indonesia in the 8th Century. The vast temple of Borobudur probably took over a hundred years to complete, such is the scale and intricacy of the stonework. There are over 1460 reliefs on the walls of the temple, 11 reliefs illustrate the shipping of the time and depict 5 vessels in all. The most prominent of these vessels is known as the Borobudur Ship and provides the focus for the expedition.    http://www.borobudurshipexpedition.com/ships-history.htm -

read more .....

 
 
 
 

The Borobudur ship returns home from Ghana

After the arrival of the ship in Ghana on 23rd February 2004 in the port of Tema, the crew worked very hard dismantling key pieces of equipment and removing excess stores from the ship which were given to a local orphanage. Samudra Raksa was then taken out of the water to await arrangements for shipping back to Indonesia, which proved more complicated than one might have imagined. After many months delay the ship was eventually shipped to Indonesia late last year.

The Ship Museum Samudra Raksa was opened by Coordinating Minister for Welfare Prof.Dr. Alwi Shihab of the Republic of Indonesia on 31st August 2005. The museum is located within the grounds of the Borobudur Temple and is just a hundred or so yards from the great temple itself. A fitting tribute to the crew and all who worked with and supported the Borobudur Ship Expedition.  

The task of erecting her and placing her in the new museum was started in July 2005 by Pak Assad the original builder of the ship. 

To help preserve the timbers she has been lightly painted with lime , a traditional preservative used on such craft. It gives Samudra Raksa a slightly surreal and timeless quality as she sits happily in her new home.

 
 



Replies:
Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 18:09
The Borobudur ship was an Indonesian cargo ship. 
 
Those typical sails were still used in  the 1500s as  Dutch engravings of the Java coast show.
 
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 18:15
You bet!
 
And they were the most advanced outside Europe at those times.
 


Posted By: jayeshks
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 16:08
That's an Arabian Dhow.  I'm confused about what this expedition is trying to replicate.  Surely the original Polynesians must have arrived in Madagascar in canoes and catamarans, not dhows.

-------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 16:55

Arabian dhow? I won't bet on that at all. Indonesian ships had the system of ballancing and a different technique of building.

By the way, Astronesians, a term that group together both Indonesian and Polynesians, besides other related people, had very advanced nautical techniques, and the catamaran, far from being just a "canoe" it was a sort of Formula one race car of the pacific. Those people were the best sailors up to the Age of Discovery, far better sailors that the Arabs, I am afraid. You can see that catamarans are not just simple canoes at all:

Indonesian ships
 
 
 
The dhow arab, by constrast, is just a large boat kept together using cords and knots. It just can't compite:
 
Dhow
 
By the way, both Arabs and Indonesians met at the Indian Ocean, so certain similarities between theirs ships are inevitable.
 
Pinguin
 
 


Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 16:39
Nice pics, Pinguin.
 
It's off topic, but I didn't even know what Madagascar is until I saw the trailer for the movie called, "Madagascar". Big%20smile


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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2007 at 22:34
Not arab and not Indian,  as the usual india centric/philic 'people /sites  claim ( almost looks like they claim everything )
 
Nothing mysterious about that ship.  Its was a normal  Javanese cargo ship  and one of the many shiptypes  they had (warboats,  fishing vessels, voyaging crafts  ;  small, medium, large sized etc  etc ).


Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 20:36
Originally posted by Sander

Not arab and not Indian,  as the usual india centric/philic 'people /sites  claim ( almost looks like they claim everything )
 
Nothing mysterious about that ship.  Its was a normal  Javanese cargo ship  and one of the many shiptypes  they had (warboats,  fishing vessels, voyaging crafts  ;  small, medium, large sized etc  etc ).
 
Can't be Japanese. It either must have been Korean or Chinese merchant ships. Japanese never explored beyond Korea, China and... in some rare case, India. But almost all Japanese going to India never used ship as their means of transportation. They went through China due to religious piligrim.


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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 22:40

^ Very funnyLOL

 
 this is a P
 
 this is a V
 
 Its Javanese.


Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 22:45
Originally posted by Sander

^  Very funnyLOL
 
 this is a P
 
 this is a V
 
 Its Javanese.
 
It's about time for me to get glasses...LOL


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 23:14
LOL
 
In any case, the Javaneses and Indonesian people are recorded as the most skillful sailors in South East Asia, and probably in the whole Asia.
Getting to Madagascar, and conquering it is not a small achievement at all.
Today people of Madagascar speak malgache, and indonesian languaje.
 
Just an example of those Malgache peoples today,
 


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 23:29
 
Seems there are 18 etnic groups home to the island (not counting recent immigrant groups). Many are racially  merely African/ Bantu. Some etnic groups are of Indonesian type  or Afro Indonesian mixed typ.
 
Anyhow, they all speak dialects of  the same Malayo Polynesian language . Some interesting explanation in an old article :
 
"It is most improbable that the ancestors of this Bantu element colonized Madagascar bytheir own unaided efforts. So far as historical and other evidences go, no Bantu tribe has ever adventured oversea or out of sight of land ; as far back as A.D. 1154 we find Edrisi stating  definitely that " the Zenjs [i.e. the Bantus of East Africa] have no ships for voyaging."
 
Except they were carried to Madagascar as prisoners or slaves, there is no satisfactory alternative solution to the problem of the presence of Bantu tribes in Madagascar. The association between the ancestors of the present Bantu stock and the Indonesian immigrants must have been exceedingly intimate to cause the Bantus to give up their own language and adopt the Malayo-Polynesian dialect of the immigrants. Slavery involves just such intimate relationship between peoples of different races as is necessary to bring about this result. It is because of this that the languages of American negroes conform to those of the men who held their forefathers in the bonds of slavery ; in the United States and Jamaica, English is the speech of the negropopulation ; in Brazil, the negroes speak Portuguese ; in Spanish America their speech is a corrupt Castilian, and in Haiti it is French. "
 
"Indonesian Influence on East African Culture"., by James Hornell
The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland 1934


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 01:43
Yes.
 
Now, let's think a little bit. If the Indonesians brough slaves from Africa, like it seems to be because of the demography of the island, then they had to go often to the mainland, to brough enough people to make a demographic impact. Therefore, there was a relation of commerce with the tribes in that region. So, it is not far off to think, Indonesians problably influenced the developments in Mozambique and the territories arount it.
 
Now, many people agree that the most probable origin of the marimba or xilophone in Africa was through Indonesian/Javanese influences. There are more than that, but nothing is more clear than the link with that instrument.
 
Some people claim that the influences go beyond that, and that includes cloths, metalurgy and certain rituals. For instance, the Great Zimbabwe could had certain stylistic influences.
 
The influence of the Indonesians in mainland Africa is a field of study than is almost virgin. It is only known that it is a valid question
 
 
 


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 04:03
 
Dont know about metallurgy etc ( when did it appear in  that part of east Africa ? ) but xylophones  seem likely. That outriggers and some other nautical things were introduced by them there (including east africa coast )can hardly be doubted .
 
Historical records support Hornell 's explanation that it was a sort of overseas slavecolony ruled by these islanders.   As he said,  the Arab records state that the people of Zabag ( Indonesia) made long journeys to raid the Africa coast ( Bilad al- Zenj ) to get Zenj/Zanj ( Arabo- Persian for Bantus ) slaves, because they were needed in China .  The chinese records on their turn state that the Indonesian kingdoms of Sumatra and Java supplied them with Zengi slaves , that are recorded in the javanese inscriptions as Jengi slaves. It fits well. 
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 02:04

I read a book, called Phantom Voyagers, where the author claims a lot of African cultural patterns were brought by Indonesian/Javanese sailors. I don't know how reliable the book is, but the guy knows a lot about the topic. I was e-mailing him after I bouugh the book, and he really got something.

In the chapter about music he got the following:
 
 

 
Bronze Igo Ukwu
 
 
wooden post of Madagascar
 
 
stone post of Zimbabwe
 
You can read about the book in this page:
 
http://www.phantomvoyagers.com/Book.htm - http://www.phantomvoyagers.com/Book.htm
 
 


Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 08:37
Originally posted by Sander

Except they were carried to Madagascar as prisoners or slaves, there is no satisfactory alternative solution to the problem of the presence of Bantu tribes in Madagascar. The association between the ancestors of the present Bantu stock and the Indonesian immigrants must have been exceedingly intimate to cause the Bantus to give up their own language and adopt the Malayo-Polynesian dialect of the immigrants. Slavery involves just such intimate relationship between peoples of different races as is necessary to bring about this result. It is because of this that the languages of American negroes conform to those of the men who held their forefathers in the bonds of slavery ; in the United States and Jamaica, English is the speech of the negropopulation ; in Brazil, the negroes speak Portuguese ; in Spanish America their speech is a corrupt Castilian, and in Haiti it is French. "

I want more proof and a theory not written in 1934 before I'll just accept that they must have been slaves. I can accept that it is logical that the Africans did not arrive in Madagascar until after the Javanese. Otherwise the Javanese would have arrived to find an island full of Bantu-speakers and they would never have come to dominate Madagascar with only a few shiploads of people. But there are many other possible explanations for how Africans got to Madagascar. They could have come as traders. Or hired labourers. Or they could have started building ships on their own after the Javanese arrived. I'm very suspicious that everyone (and I include medieval Arab historians in "everyone") jumps straight to the idea that they must have been slaves.

And the Bantu already had ironworking technology long before the Javanese arrived. One of the major reasons the Bantu were able to spread out from Nigeria to Mozambique (across from Madagascar) in the first place was because of their iron spears and knives. Even if the last few hundred kilometres of their journey is a matter of debate, the reason there were Bantu people within 5000 km of Madagascar at all is because of Bantu ingenuity.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 15:27
Originally posted by jdalton

...
And the Bantu already had ironworking technology long before the Javanese arrived.
 
Do you have evidence of this? That would be interesting to check out
 
Originally posted by jdalton

...
One of the major reasons the Bantu were able to spread out from Nigeria to Mozambique (across from Madagascar) in the first place was because of their iron spears and knives. Even if the last few hundred kilometres of their journey is a matter of debate, the reason there were Bantu people within 5000 km of Madagascar at all is because of Bantu ingenuity.
 
As far as it is known, Indonesian/Javaneses influenced Madagascar as well and spread several cultural patterns and technologies throughout the region. You can still see Javanese style boat (those with a counterweight) in the coasts of South East Africa, right across madagascar. And the influences are deeper of what catches the eye.
 
By the way, I found this page about Indonesian traditional boats.
 
http://www.forumms.com/traditional_boats.htm - http://www.forumms.com/traditional_boats.htm
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 18:53
Originally posted by jdalton

Originally posted by Sander

Except they were carried to Madagascar as prisoners or slaves, there is no satisfactory alternative solution to the problem of the presence of Bantu tribes in Madagascar. The association between the ancestors of the present Bantu stock and the Indonesian immigrants must have been exceedingly intimate to cause the Bantus to give up their own language and adopt the Malayo-Polynesian dialect of the immigrants. Slavery involves just such intimate relationship between peoples of different races as is necessary to bring about this result. It is because of this that the languages of American negroes conform to those of the men who held their forefathers in the bonds of slavery ; in the United States and Jamaica, English is the speech of the negropopulation ; in Brazil, the negroes speak Portuguese ; in Spanish America their speech is a corrupt Castilian, and in Haiti it is French. "

I want more proof and a theory not written in 1934 before I'll just accept that they must have been slaves. I can accept that it is logical that the Africans did not arrive in Madagascar until after the Javanese. Otherwise the Javanese would have arrived to find an island full of Bantu-speakers and they would never have come to dominate Madagascar with only a few shiploads of people. But there are many other possible explanations for how Africans got to Madagascar. They could have come as traders. Or hired labourers. Or they could have started building ships on their own after the Javanese arrived. I'm very suspicious that everyone (and I include medieval Arab historians in "everyone") jumps straight to the idea that they must have been slaves.

And the Bantu already had ironworking technology long before the Javanese arrived. One of the major reasons the Bantu were able to spread out from Nigeria to Mozambique (across from Madagascar) in the first place was because of their iron spears and knives. Even if the last few hundred kilometres of their journey is a matter of debate, the reason there were Bantu people within 5000 km of Madagascar at all is because of Bantu ingenuity.
Well, the Javanese have been mentioned a few times (often in relation with the depicted Borobudur ship ). This might suggest that the immigrants descend from them but that not the case. Linguistically , the settlers were related to other groups ( south Borneo and south Sulawesi ) This does not mean that there was no relation with the Javanese or sumatran kingdoms of that time, since these polities also employed other island groups for commercial and piratical activities.
 
Regarding the slavery theory. Other factors could have contributed to the presence of the Bantus .  Yet, the  oldest historical evidence  ( from 3 different sources )confirm an east African slavetrade carried out by these islanders.  So ,  based on that , it seems this was an important factor, at least for the beginning.
 
About metallurgy. I m not not sure when it appeared in east Africa . If it is pre CE , then  the case of an introduction from overseas by those sailors is more  unlikely than when if would appear in lets  say 4 th century AD. And even then , one should  not automatically exclude other sources or even independent invention.


Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 04:10
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by jdalton

...
And the Bantu already had ironworking technology long before the Javanese arrived.
 
Do you have evidence of this? That would be interesting to check out

That the Bantu spread across the southern half of Africa because of their superior technology (specifically ironworking and farming) and pushed out or assimilated the hunter-gatherers previously living there is one of the most basic assumptions of pre-colonial African history. I've never seen it once questioned. There is ample archaeological and cultural evidence but I'm more familiar with the linguistic evidence. The Bantu languages are all very much related, and moreover the languages get more similar and less diverse as you move further from Nigeria. There are hundreds of languages (Bantu and non-Bantu) in Nigeria and only about 30 in Mozambique (all Bantu and all the same family within that heading). Google the words Bantu and history and you will no doubt find the Bantu expansion front and centre. There is still some uncertainty about who first started using iron south of the Sahara and why, but everyone agrees it happened in either West Africa or just south of Nubia and that it happened before the year 1. I'll start a thread on African iron some day.

I'm not saying that the Indonesians of Madagascar had no impact on the African mainland. I seem to remember reading somewhere about Asian crops spreading across Africa and adding to the diet of the entire continent? I'll see if I can find where I read that. In the meantime I'm only trying to defend the innovations that were clearly African. You might as well claim that the Mayans learned to write from the Spanish as say that the Bantu leaned to smelt iron from Indonesians.

Sander, I continue to doubt your Arabian source. It claims, for example, that African slaves were brought to China because they were "needed." But China hasn't had slavery as an institution since before Confucius, and he died in 479 BCE.


-------------
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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 20:42

Originally posted by jdalton

Sander, I continue to doubt your Arabian source. It claims, for example, that African slaves were brought to China because they were "needed." But China hasn't had slavery as an institution since before Confucius, and he died in 479 BCE.

Confucius' time aint a reason for doubts. This specific account about the raids from SEA on east Africa  is related to the second half of the first millenium AD ( 900s ). Older references related to this ' trade' in Zenj people ( or Zanj since in Arab does not distinguish much between the vowels ) are from the 800s and earlier.
 
BTW, There was also normal trade between the Far East and Zanj coast.   El- Indrisi 12 th century :  
"The people of Zabag and the surrounding islands come to seek here [at Sofala, on the south-east coast of Africa] for iron to transport to the Indian mainland and islands [Indonesia], where they sell it profitably, for it is an important article of trade ..." 

About the Hornell article.  In those days, anthroplogists and historians were generaly speaking more biased than today. Some views are now outdated. Now, we dont have to throw all the old scholarship away. We only have to distinguish between those views which are now considered as outdated and wich are not.

 


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 05:59
I am not convinced about a metallurgy introduction from SEA  but  chronologically speaking its does not seem  impossible.  SEAN bronze working started c. 2000 BC (e.g. Ban Chiang Thailand ) Iron was same time later . Anyhow, around 500 BC , SEA ( including the islands) had many metalworking sites.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 13:38
There is a good change iron metalurgy was also introduced into SS Africa from abroad. There are two possible external sources:
(1) From the north, along other innovations such as cattle, goat and agriculture techniques.
(2) From the east, from the Malgache culture founded by Indonesian/Javanese sailors.
 
Yes, it is also possible iron metalurgy is native to SS Africa, but there is no definitive evidence either against or for that thesis.


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 23:51
Subharan metallurgy might be  older than previously thought. Anyhow, this is what an Unesco article says :
 
  
IRON IN AFRICA: REVISING THE HISTORY
 
24-06-2002 10:00 pm Paris - Africa developed its own iron industry some 5,000 years ago, according to a formidable new scientific work from UNESCO Publishing that challenges a lot of conventional thinking on the subject. Iron technology did not come to Africa from western Asia via Carthage or Merowe as was long thought, concludes "Aux origines de la mtallurgie du fer en Afrique, Une anciennet mconnue: Afrique de l'Ouest et Afrique centrale". The theory that it was imported from somewhere else, which - the book points out - nicely fitted colonial prejudices, does not stand up in the face of new scientific discoveries, including the probable existence of one or more centres of iron-working in west and central Africa andthe Great Lakes area.
...
 
But the facts speak for themselves. Tests on material excavated since the 1980s show that iron was worked at least as long ago as 1500 BC at Termit, in eastern Niger, while iron did not appear in Tunisia or Nubia before the 6th century BC. At Egaro, west of Termit, material has been dated earlier than 2500 BC, which makes African metalworking contemporary with that of the Middle East.
 ...
The article :
 
  http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html - http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 01:08
That's quite interesting. I read it fully.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by jdalton

That the Bantu spread across the southern half of Africa because of their superior technology (specifically ironworking and farming) and pushed out or assimilated the hunter-gatherers previously living there is one of the most basic assumptions of pre-colonial African history. I've never seen it once questioned. There is ample archaeological and cultural evidence but I'm more familiar with the linguistic evidence. The Bantu languages are all very much related, and moreover the languages get more similar and less diverse as you move further from Nigeria. There are hundreds of languages (Bantu and non-Bantu) in Nigeria and only about 30 in Mozambique (all Bantu and all the same family within that heading). Google the words Bantu and history and you will no doubt find the Bantu expansion front and centre. There is still some uncertainty about who first started using iron south of the Sahara and why, but everyone agrees it happened in either West Africa or just south of Nubia and that it happened before the year 1. I'll start a thread on African iron some day.

I'm not saying that the Indonesians of Madagascar had no impact on the African mainland. I seem to remember reading somewhere about Asian crops spreading across Africa and adding to the diet of the entire continent? I'll see if I can find where I read that. In the meantime I'm only trying to defend the innovations that were clearly African. You might as well claim that the Mayans learned to write from the Spanish as say that the Bantu leaned to smelt iron from Indonesians.

Sander, I continue to doubt your Arabian source. It claims, for example, that African slaves were brought to China because they were "needed." But China hasn't had slavery as an institution since before Confucius, and he died in 479 BCE.
 
Iron spread across Asia and Africa in two seperate ways. Iron was invented in the Middle east and more specifically in Lydia. Here are the ways the invention of iron making spread:
 
Africa: As the rest of near Middle Eastern tribes picked up on iron making they started to conquer other settlements. The Hyksos conquered Egypt and introduced iron making to the Egyptians. Although the Egyptians continued to use bronze, for some odd reason, the Nubians mass produced iron making. At Meroe, ancient Nubian capital, they produced iron at a large scale which inevitably spread along East Africa and branched to West Africa.
 
Asia: The Aryans from the Caucasus Mountains spread through the Middle East and picked up iron making. They then went through the Middle East and conquered places South Asia, in particular Pakistan and India, and easily defeated Indians who were still using bronze weaponry. Later it spread throughout the whole of Asia through intercourse of trade.
 
So to say that Indonesians introduced iron making to Madagascar is untrue. In fact it is more likely the Bantu people who inhabited the island had it before the Southeast Asians themselves.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Arabian dhow? I won't bet on that at all. Indonesian ships had the system of ballancing and a different technique of building.

By the way, Astronesians, a term that group together both Indonesian and Polynesians, besides other related people, had very advanced nautical techniques, and the catamaran, far from being just a "canoe" it was a sort of Formula one race car of the pacific. Those people were the best sailors up to the Age of Discovery, far better sailors that the Arabs, I am afraid. You can see that catamarans are not just simple canoes at all.

The Middle East was VERY advanced in terms of ship building in fact Europeans extablished modern ships based on Arab ships, most noticeable Portugese. From before the Phoenicians and Carthaginians were expert ship builders and were able to traverse rough waters. Before we reached Southeast Asia, there really was no boats that were large and made for tough waters just fisher boats and small cargo vessels to traverse the calm waters of the Indian Ocean. Yes a lot of things come from Southeast Aisa such as the Lateen Sail but for the most part they didn't really travel extensively until the Arabs came.

We discovered them, they didn't discover us pinguin!Smile


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 20:58
Sure fellow?
 
After all, a branch of the Austronesians -the polynesians- conquered the Pacific, which represent almost half of the world. As far as I know, Arabs just trade the traditional routes from Africa up to India.
 
With respect to iron, it may be that Bantues had it before Indonesians in Madagascar... however, the South East Asian influence is clear in everything else, particularly in musical instruments and game board.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 23:44
Originally posted by pinguin

Sure fellow?
 
After all, a branch of the Austronesians -the polynesians- conquered the Pacific, which represent almost half of the world. As far as I know, Arabs just trade the traditional routes from Africa up to India.
 
With respect to iron, it may be that Bantues had it before Indonesians in Madagascar... however, the South East Asian influence is clear in everything else, particularly in musical instruments and game board.
 
Come on pinquin, you know Spanish you should know the Pacific in Spanish means peace. Polynesians conquered the Pacific because the islands are clumped together, you didn't need to larger ships that the Arabs used. Polynesians are tribal peoples, they did not have the need or means to build large ships to go island hoping.LOL


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 01:49
Originally posted by andrew

.. 
Come on pinquin, you know Spanish you should know the Pacific in Spanish means peace. Polynesians conquered the Pacific because the islands are clumped together, you didn't need to larger ships that the Arabs used. Polynesians are tribal peoples, they did not have the need or means to build large ships to go island hoping.LOL
 
The Pacific is harly a peaceful ocean at all LOL
 
Fellow. Polynesians had better ships that arabs in the time frame from 5th century BC up to 15th century AD. Polynesians had catamarans, which were high speed boats that raced the waves. Besides, they were very skillful in orientation by the stars and the temperature of waters....
 
Sorry fellow, my first name is "Omar" and I admire Arab science, medicine, literature, music and mathematics... but in sailing those "primitive" Polynesians were centuries ahead of Arabs.
 
Arabs had anything like this:
 
 
 
 
 
 
Those boats were built for speed... nothing like that existed in the Arab world, no sir.
 


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 06:02
Originally posted by andrew

 
Africa: As the rest of near Middle Eastern tribes picked up on iron making they started to conquer other settlements. The Hyksos conquered Egypt and introduced iron making to the Egyptians. Although the Egyptians continued to use bronze, for some odd reason, the Nubians mass produced iron making. At Meroe, ancient Nubian capital, they produced iron at a large scale which inevitably spread along East Africa and branched to West Africa.
 
Maybe but what the evidence? If we must believe that undesco article then , for Nubia, no material data is found earlier than 600 BC. So, what do you have?
 
Originally posted by andrew

 
Before we reached Southeast Asia, there really was no boats that were large and made for tough waters just fisher boats and small cargo vessels to traverse the calm waters of the Indian Ocean. Yes a lot of things come from Southeast Aisa such as the Lateen Sail but for the most part they didn't really travel extensively until the Arabs came.We discovered them, they didn't discover us pinguin!Smile
 
' Discovered them ' sounds strange.  If a particulair etnicity reaches certain lands before those people reach the other is to be called a discovery, than the Dutch must have discovered the Indians and the Persians and many others. LOL
 
Look.  None of the modern nations in south asia , SEA and East Asia was isolated. All moden nation had polities within its modern bounderies that had direct maritime trade relations with the ' Middle east and rest of Asia before the earliest europeans entered. Regarding Asia there was nothing to discover actually.
 
"Just small ships' ? On what do you base this, on the smallest fishing boats ? This cant  come from  modern maritime historians. LOL  
Not from old records either. 
 
 In 1600 AD records we read that the largest javanese ships had a cargo capacity of 1000 tonnes.  ( several  times the capacity of an average 16 th century european ship, let alone arab that were smaller ).  Also, chinese sources (like the  3 th century chinese Nan chou I wu Chih" ' Strange things from the south'  ( SEA ) also mention those large ships with 600 people on them and large cargo .
 
There is more but Andrew, where do you get such ideas from?
 
 
 
  
 
 


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 06:20
Originally posted by andrew

Come on pinquin, you know Spanish you should know the Pacific in Spanish means peace. Polynesians conquered the Pacific because the islands are clumped together, you didn't need to larger ships that the Arabs used. Polynesians are tribal peoples, they did not have the need or means to build large ships to go island hoping.LOL
 
Pacific is just as pacific as the Red sea is redLOL.  Some example how quite this ocean is :
 
 
 
 
Sadler,James and Bernand Kilonsky. Meterological Events in the Central Pacific during 1983. Tropical Ocean Atmosphere Newsletter 21 pp. 3-5
 
Lets stay serious , please Wink 
 
 
 
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/22.jpg -  


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 11:36

You guys are giving me sources of things from the 15th and 16th centuries well after the Arabs started their trans-Pacific trade between East and West. Also the picture pinquin had with the Arab ship is so awful I can't explain considering the Phoenicians and Egyptians had triremes since BC. The Arabs are great feritilizers of other people's cutlures they took shipbuilding from the Persians, Egyptians, Aegeans, and Phoenicians and picked up upon it. The Phoenicians mapped out the constellations well before anyone else did and traveled as far north as England in the stormy Atlantic.

 
Sander research Meroe there is little doubt the Nubians had iron before 600 BC.Wink


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 15:06
Arab ships of the times of Simbad the Sailor were not better than that boat. Arab ships were famous for its problems of constrution. In other words, you have to be couragious just to get in them. They were tide together by ropes, rather than by pegs of nails like other people did. Norse ships of the Middle Ages were a lot more advanced that the average arab cargo ship. Indonesians and Polynesians are known to be great sailors and have great tech since ancient times.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 20:33
Originally posted by pinguin

Arab ships of the times of Simbad the Sailor were not better than that boat. Arab ships were famous for its problems of constrution. In other words, you have to be couragious just to get in them. They were tide together by ropes, rather than by pegs of nails like other people did. Norse ships of the Middle Ages were a lot more advanced that the average arab cargo ship. Indonesians and Polynesians are known to be great sailors and have great tech since ancient times.
 
I'd like a source for these claims. Again it is ridiculous to say this considering the Persians, Egyptian, and Phoenicians all built large ships based on intricite designs.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 20:53

get info about shipbuilding in times of the arabs and compare with polynesian designs. Easy.



Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 21:46
Originally posted by pinguin

get info about shipbuilding in times of the arabs and compare with polynesian designs. Easy.

 
So it appears from the days of the Persians, Phoenicians, and Egyptians that under Arab control of the Middle East ships have regressed. I really am confused with what you are saying.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 22:03
I am just saying Polynesian and Indonesian/Javanese ships (related people) were superior than Egyptians, Phoenicians et all.


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 22:26
Originally posted by pinguin

I am just saying Polynesian and Indonesian/Javanese ships (related people) were superior than Egyptians, Phoenicians et all.
 
And I very strongly diagree but this is a free forum and you are entitle to your opinion.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 02:46
Well, let's compare tech, then. Step by step. Let's start for the map of Polynesian and Indonesian routes.
 
Just notice that unlike Arabs, Indians, Chineses and Meds, the Polinesians didn't followed coastal routes, they navigated directly in high seas. Don't get it wrong, this map of the Pacific Ocean is larger than it seems, represents half of the world.
 
 
 
And the migration of early Malagasy people (Madagascar) also followed a high sea route
 
 
 
As I mentioned early, both Javanese/Indonesians and Polynesian peoples are related and known under the colective name of Austronesians. They are, without doubt, the best sailors up to the Age of Discovery.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 01:34
Originally posted by pinguin

With respect to iron, it may be that Bantues had it before Indonesians in Madagascar... however, the South East Asian influence is clear in everything else, particularly in musical instruments and game board.

I am not disputing your claim that Madagascarans influenced the culture of East Africans. Why not? Everybody else influenced them- the Arabs, Indians, even China visited East Africa. And I've looked it up now, Indonesian/Madagascarans did introduce bananas and Asian yams into Africa and they have been grown there ever since. Just don't try to take away one of SS Africa's most brilliant episodes, the development of ironworking and the Bantu expansion.

As for evidence (not proof, there is no proof) that West Africans either developed ironworking independently or saw other people using it (Hyksos? Carthaginians?) and then developed their own method to manufacture it rather than having some outsider teach them, how about this...

The origins of ironworking in sub-Saharan Africa soon after 1000 B.C. are still unclear. That early date is suspiciously close to dates for the arrival of Near Eastern ironworking techniques in Carthage, on the North African coast. Hence historians often assume that knowledge of metallurgy reached sub-Saharan Africa from the north. On the other hand, copper smelting had been going on in the West African Sahara and Sahel since at least 2000 B.C. That could have been the precursor to an independent African discovery of iron metallurgy. Strengthening that hypothesis, the iron-smelting techniques of smiths in sub-Saharan Africa were so different from those of the Mediterranean as to suggest independent development: African smiths discovered how to produce high temperatures in their village furnaces and manufacture steel over 2000 years before the Bessemer furnaces of 19th-century Europe and America.

-from "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond

China had cast iron from an early date and Japan had steel (I'm not sure when), but did Indonesia have steel in 1 AD? Africa did.


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http://www.jonathondalton.com/mycomics.html - Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 03:00

I am not trying to taking away an African achievement. I am just wondering if the process was invented locally or was improved upon external influences.

 

 



Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 06:24
Originally posted by andrew

You guys are giving me sources of things from the 15th and 16th centuries well after the Arabs started their trans-Pacific trade between East and West. Also the picture pinquin had with the Arab ship is so awful I can't explain considering the Phoenicians and Egyptians had triremes since BC. The Arabs are great feritilizers of other people's cutlures they took shipbuilding from the Persians, Egyptians, Aegeans, and Phoenicians and picked up upon it. The Phoenicians mapped out the constellations well before anyone else did and traveled as far north as England in the stormy Atlantic.

 
Sander research Meroe there is little doubt the Nubians had iron before 600 BC.Wink
Seems there is a lot of doubt about that, if the article is right and used for further research. SS african metallurgy is far older.

Arab  vessels were stitched  vessels,  not so fit for long open ocean sailing. Its not because they did not use iron nails. Most ancient Indonesian ships used wooden dowels and lashed lug techniques but in advanced and complicated ways. Anyway, since you assert that ancient Arab vessels were such  great vessels , why not showing us a genuine first millenium AD drawing/model etc  (made in those days ofcourse) so we can compare a bit? Not some old greek,  egyptian etc vessel ; just arab please.
 
 


Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 02:20
Originally posted by pinguin

I am not trying to taking away an African achievement. I am just wondering if the process was invented locally or was improved upon external influences.

It may well have been imported. Without more evidence it is impossible to say even in what part of the Sahel ironworking first began let alone how it began. The Sahel is a vast area. But suggesting that it was imported through Madagascar leaves out anywhere from 1000 to 2000 years of Africa's iron age. There were important things happening in those 1000+ years. Things that belong to Africa.



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http://www.jonathondalton.com/mycomics.html - Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 17:10
Actually, what matters in this thread is the spread of the Indonesians to Madagascar and its influence in South-East Africa. In there it is evidence the comming of the Asians changed things. If they contributed with iron making in South-East Africa, or at least with some techniques, it doesn't mean is related with the development of iron in the Sahel or West Africa at all. Those are two different things.
 
In fact, one of the question one should ask is how far Malgache influences spread through Africa. It was only along the coast, and in things like the introduction of the babana where theirs influence was felt? I do not know.
What I do know it is there is too little information about contact between West Africa and East Africa in pre-colonial times that it is hard to tell.
 
Only a few things are obvious: cattle and goats came from the north and spread with the Bantues.... Mozambique boats follow the model of Indonesians and Swahili registered some influences as well. The rest is just speculation so far. More studies are needed.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 05:06
The people of Mozambique speak Bantu languages and have Bantu genes. They are Bantu. Based on clear linguistic (and genetic) evidence the Bantu originated just south of the Sahel. They are most closely related to West Africans. There is archaeological evidence of ironworking in the Sahel from an early date and the genetic precursors of the crops and domesticated animals the Bantu kept all originate from north of the equator. The San, the people who lived in Mozambique previously, did not have iron tools or crops or domesticated animals or they would not have been pushed back to one small corner of the continent (South Africa and Namibia). The Bantu living in Mozambique grow North and West African crops such as yams and sorghum. They raise cattle, just like their Bantu ancestors. Why is it so hard to accept that the Bantu from north of the equator, who used iron and grew yams and sorghum and raised cattle, took all of this technology with them when they moved into Mozambique? When you compound this with the fact that the Bantu arrived in Mozambique before Madagascar was colonized by anyone, what basis is there for believing that iron was introduced through Madagascar? You are the only one, Pinguin, I have heard make this claim. 

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http://www.jonathondalton.com/mycomics.html - Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 06:17
On Swahilli:
 
http://www.zanzinet.org/swahili_history.html - http://www.zanzinet.org/swahili_history.html  

Brief History of Swahili Language



(by Hassan O. Ali; revised by Abdurahman Juma)


The Swahili language, is basically of Bantu (African) origin. It has borrowed words from other languages such as Arabic probably as a result of the Swahili people using the Quran written in Arabic for spiritual guidance as Muslims.

As regards the formation of the Swahili culture and language, some scholars attribute these phenomena to the intercourse of African and Asiatic people on the coast of East Africa. The word "Swahili" was used by early Arab visitors to the coast and it means "the coast". Ultimately it came to be applied to the people and the language.

Regarding the history of the Swahili language, the older view linked to the colonial time asserts that the Swahili language originates from Arabs and Persians who moved to the East African coast. Given the fact that only the vocabulary can be associated with these groups but the syntax or grammar of the language is Bantu, this argument has been almost forgotten. It is well known that any language that has to grow and expand its territories ought to absorb some vocabulary from other languages in its way.

A suggestion has been made that Swahili is an old language. The earliest known document recounting the past situation on the East African coast written in the 2nd century AD (in Greek language by anonymous author at Alexandria in Egypt and it is called the Periplus of Erythrean Sea) says that merchants visiting the East African coast at that time from Southern Arabia, used to speak with the natives in their local language and they intermarried with them. Those that suggest that Swahili is an old language point to this early source for the possible antiquity of the Swahili language.

It is an undeniable truth that Arab and Persian cultures had greatest influence on the Swahili culture and the Swahili language. To demonstrate the contribution of each culture into the Swahili language, take an example of the numbers as they are spoken in Swahili. "moja" = one, "mbili" = two, "tatu" = three, "nne" = four, "tano" = five, "nane" = eight, "kumi" = ten, are all of Bantu origin. On the other hand there is "sita" = six, "saba" = seven and "tisa" = nine, that are borrowed from Arabic. The Swahili words, "chai" = tea, "achari" = pickle, "serikali" = government, "diwani" = councillor, "sheha" = village councillor, are some of the words borrowed from Persian bearing testimony to the older connections with Persian merchants.

The Swahili language also absorbed words from the Portuguese who controlled the Swahili coastal towns (c. 1500-1700AD). Some of the words that the Swahili language absorbed from the Portuguese include "leso" (handkerchief), "meza" (table), "gereza" (prison), "pesa" ('peso', money), etc. Swahili bull-fighting, still popular on the Pemba island, is also a Portuguese legacy from that period. The Swahili language also borrowed some words from languages of the later colonial powers on the East African coast - English (British) and German. Swahilized English words include "baiskeli" (bicycle), "basi" (bus), "penseli" (pencil), "mashine" (machine), "koti" (coat), etc. The Swahilized German words include "shule" for school and "hela" for a German coin.

For centuries, Swahili remained as the language for the people of the East African coast. Long-time interactions with other people bordering the Indian Ocean spread the Swahili language to distant places such as on the islands of Comoro and Madagascar and even far beyond to South Africa, Oman and United Arab Emirates. Trade and migration from the Swahili coast during the nineteenth-century helped spread the language to the interior of particularly Tanzania. It also reached Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, Congo, Central African Rebublic, and Mozambique.

Christian missionaries learnt Swahili as the language of communication to spread the Gospel in Eastern Africa. So, the missionaries also helped to spread the language. As a matter of fact the first Swahili-English dictionary was prepared by a missionary. During the colonial time, Swahili was used for communication with the local inhabitants. Hence the colonial administrators pioneered the effort of standardizing the Swahili language. Zanzibar was the epicenter of culture and commerce, therefore colonial administrators selected the dialect of the Zanzibar (Unguja) town as the standard Swahili. The Unguja dialect (Kiunguja) was then used for all formal communication such as in schools, in mass media (newspapers and radio), in books and other publications.

Now Swahili is spoken in many countries of Eastern Africa. For Tanzania, deliberate efforts were made by the independent nation to promote the language (thanks to the efforts of the former head of state, Julius K. Nyerere). Tanzania's special relations with countries of southern Africa was the chief reason behind the spread of Swahili to Zambia, Malawi, South Africa, and other neighbouring countries to the south. Swahili is the national as well as the official language in Tanzania - almost all Tanzanians speak Swahili proficiently and are unified by it. In Kenya and Uganda, it is the national language, but official correspondence is still conducted in English.

Thus, Swahili is the most widely spoken language of eastern Africa and many world institutions have responded to its diaspora. It is one of the languages that feature in some world radio stations such as, the BBC, Radio Cairo (Egypt), the Voice of America (U.S.A.), Radio Deutschewelle (Germany), Radio Moscow International (Russia), Radio Japan International, Radio China International, Radio Sudan, and Radio South Africa. The Swahili language is also making its presence in the art world - in songs, theatres, movies and television programs. For example, the lyrics for the song titled "Liberian girl" by Michael Jackson has Swahili phrases: "Nakupenda pia, nakutaka pia, mpenzi we!" (I love you, and I want you, my dear!). The well-celebrated Disney movie, "The Lion King" features several Swahili words, for example "simba" (lion), "rafiki" (friend), as the names of the characters. The Swahili phrase "hakuna matata" (No troubles or no problems) was also used in that movie.

The promotion of the Swahili language is not only in its use but also deliberate efforts are made throughout the world to include it in education curriculum for higher institutions of learning. It is taught in many parts of the world.

You can also read more on Swahili language by visiting http://www.glcom.com/hassan - www.glcom.com/hassan .



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 06:23
Originally posted by jdalton

...When you compound this with the fact that the bantu arrived in Mozambique before Madagascar was colonized by anyone, what basis is there for believing that iron was introduced through Madagascar? You are the only one, Pinguin, I have heard make this claim. 
 
Perhaps I am wrong in that, and Iron was known earlier in Africa.
What is undeniable, though, is that the Indonesian influence in East Africa exist.


Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 02:18
Originally posted by pinguin

What is undeniable, though, is that the Indonesian influence in East Africa exist.

Oh yes, on that we agree completely. Also, Swahili is awesome. With so many languages in Africa it's perhaps not surprising that a "lingua franca" eventually emerged, but the fact that it emerged on the east coast of the continent is completely the result of trade and contact not just amongst African peoples but between them and the Arab and Indian and Indonesian worlds as well. In fact the Indian Ocean reminds me of the Mediterranean- only much much bigger of course. Given time you might have found the people in Zanzibar and the Maldives and Java and Kalikut having more in common with each other than they had with their inland neighbours.

Actually I guess in terms of religion at least, they did.


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http://www.jonathondalton.com/mycomics.html - Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 02:41
Interesting. If you can explain the relations between the people of the Zanzibar, Java etc in more detail I will appreciate it very much.
 
In fact, it is amazing that the mainstream history has almost forgotten this chapter so important in world history.


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 02:14
That s because of the once prevailing orientalistic view in western writings on the Far east.   They were  prejudiced in  their appraoch to Far Eastern cultures , especially SEA. In short , the seafaring activities and skills of the SEANS , especially the islanders were largely ignored or not given the attention they deserved.  The orientalistic view  of old times was that Indians were running the trading network between India, SEA and China  . Later on this turned out to be untenable for several reasons. Even the historical data in chinese records show that in  1000 years ( whole first millenium AD   )  the number  of Indian trading missions  via seas was very low ( about 10 ) compared to the 100 's from states in the island region.  ( middle eastern missions were also more numerous than those from Indian states ).
 
Speaking about the name 'India' ( and this is relevant for the discussion) ; Many people , incl. many scholars of today dont fully realize that for the old arabs and europeans , the name 'India ' did not apply to a political entity in the subcontinent . Although the name India was initially applied to the indus region ( now pakistan), it quickly became a generic name for a much larger region. It comparable how'Africa' and 'Asia', initially defined roman provinces, became names for much larger regions.
 
In the first millenium and second millenium AD the name 'India, or the adjective Indian ' was not used by any kingdom /etnicty in South -Asia or SEA. It was a geographic name used by Middle easterns and westerners for a region that included the Sub-continent , SEA islands and part of what is now mainland SEA. This region consisted of many independent polities. We can see a very good example in 10 th c. Arab book Kitāb 'ajā'ib al-Hind ( the wonders of India  ) . Here some separate kingdoms on the malay peninsula and islands are also said to be in the lands or islands of India). This ancient usage was even taken over by the Dutch and the British who both refered to theor own territories as British and Dutch India. In fact ,  the dutch refered to both the people of British -India and Dutch India ( nederlands indie ) as Indians ( indiers) .  Later on Indies and India were often used interchangebly.
 
This also means, that we should not make the mistake  to see older  historical references to  India' , 'Indian ships' 'goods from  India' as automatically refering to the subcontinent.   
 
Just one example how such references to 'India' were often misunderstood : In the 1500s the Ottomans recieved letters from the Acheh sultan in Sumatra ( now Indonesia ) . These letters were recorded in the archives as coming from a kingdom in 'Islamic India'. Ottomans did not makes an error here since  they used  India in the normal wide geographical sense. Nevertheless, the historians were automatically thinking of the subcontinent. After some deeper research, it became clear that Aceh in Sumatra was meant ; something also shown by the letters that were written in an Indonesian language in arabic script. ( see also  Acheh thread)
 
An interesting theory : Portuguese records ( Fra Mauro) mention how in the 1420s a '' junk from 'India ' ( zonchos de India ) came to Cape of good  Hope and ended even up in the atlantic ( this ship is by Menzies called a Chinese junk btw ). Well, it 's unclear wich of the Indias is meant here but  certainly ' insular India' ( the modern name indonesia actually means India-Islands, echoing  older foreign  names ) has the best cards. They are the surely the  ones that have unrefutable  evidence that they were familair with the southern part of Africa ( colonization of Madgascar ) and the old European records are very explicit in attributing to them  the former visits to Cape of Good Hope.
 
" The Javanese are all men very skilled in the art of navigation, in so much that they claim to have been the earliest navigators. Some, however, attribute this honour to the Chinese and affirm that the Javanese learnt from them. But it is certain that the latter [the Javanese] formerly sailed even to the Cape of Good Hope and that they have held communication with the Island of S. Lourenco [Madagascar], where are found numerous natives, tawny and of the Javanese type (bassos e ajavados), who are said to be descended from them [the Javanese]. "
 
Diogo de Couto 1597 ( quoted in  the mentioned Hornell article ).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 13:48

Excelent post! That clarifies things.



Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 21:47
Yes, good post Sander. When Columbus claimed to have found a route to "India," didn't he in fact mean Indonesia? I makes much more sense that Caribbeans could be mistaken for Indonesians than for people of the subcontinent.
Originally posted by pinguin

Interesting. If you can explain the relations between the people of the Zanzibar, Java etc in more detail I will appreciate it very much.

Well I don't know much of the details of Muslim missionaries in the Indian Ocean, but by the time Europeans arrived the northern tip of Madagascar, the Swahili and Somali coasts, the Middle East, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Maldives, Malaysia, and large parts of Indonesia were all majority Muslim, and Muslims were a powerful minority (often a ruling minority) in most of India. Their missionary efforts covered most of the coastline of the entire ocean, bar Antarctica and Australia, but didn't reach very far inland in Africa or Southeast Asia. This clearly suggests that for someone from (say) Zanzibar, the Rift Valley 700km inland would be more foreign in many ways than a Muslim trading port 7000km away in Java.


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http://www.jonathondalton.com/mycomics.html - Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 22:02

Columbus mean Indonesians? Good point. It could be. After all they were after the specias, and many of those grew in Indonesia rather than in today's India.



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 06:24

The hypo about Columbus and Indonesia is interesting indeed. How does Marko Polo call Indonesia in his book?

Since Columbus learned a lot about "India" from Marko Polo's book it could help us to clarify the issue.



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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 12:25
They were called Specias Islands if I am not wrong.


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 13:59
Marco Polo?  he  used Isles  of India.  When he got more specific about an island,  he used names like Java etc 
 
Book III chapter 1. 
 
"Having finished our discourse concerning those countries wherewith our Book hath been occupied thus far, we are now about to enter on the subject of INDIA, and to tell you of all the wonders thereof.  And first let us speak of the ships in which merchants go to and from amongst the Isles of India".


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 21:23
Thank you, Sander. So, Java and Sumartra are Isles of India according to Marko Polo. Very interesting, indeed.

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