Print Page | Close Window

Strange weapon

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: De Re Militari: The Society for Medieval Military History
Forum Discription: Official forum for the academic society De Re Militari: News about the society, its website and forthcoming publications; Discuss medieval warfare as well as ar
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21126
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 10:02
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Strange weapon
Posted By: Desperado
Subject: Strange weapon
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 10:32
The following pictures clearly show the true brutality
of the medieval warfare:

http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otm10vablu7.gif">

I'm particularly interested in identifying the type of the two-handed weapon, which is used by the knight on the left. It looks like a combination of a scythe and a great sword, or a two-handed sabre and must be really formidable.

http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otm29vcdlh5.gif">

http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otm34vcdut9.gif">

Where's the romanticism of chivalry - this is a pure butchery.

http://www.medievaltymes.com - The source of the pictures.



Replies:
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 15:20
i've seen that thing before, but not used by a knight, must have been France or Spain. i'll have to look it up. whats also interesting, it seems there are horse archers on the last pic.


-------------


Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 17:24
Desperado
 
There is nothing romantic about warfare or battles - they use every mean they have to kill the enemy. Just like portrayed in your pictures, but much more dirty, messy and bloody.
 
Mostly, the knights saved their chivalry for the ladies I think Wink
 


-------------


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 17:36
The sword's a falchion. They were fairly common across medieval Europe.


-------------
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Tar Szerénd
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 04:32
Yes, they use reflexbows with non-bending siyahs. Interesting... Where is this picture from?


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 06:45
I agree about the last pic, it is interesting the archer appears to be mounted. But I don't actually see a horse coming out from under the archer, so it could be that the man is a background figure on foot behind men who are mounted with lances and swords.

-------------


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 13:19
Originally posted by Paul

The sword's a falchion. They were fairly common across medieval Europe.


thats not a falchion. falchions are short, one-handed and broad at the top and have a handguard, which is almost the exact opposite of this weapon. but i've seen this weapon before, i'll have to look up my books.


-------------


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 14:05
Falchion can be of any length. The're a style of sword rather than a length. The are plenty of examples upto 40 inches long. It's also a very varied sword with no hard fast rules and blade shape. I've seen some almost identical to dao, even with the 's' shaped hilt.
 
http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm - http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_falc.html - http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_falc.html
 
I've seen the exact sword to, can't remeber where though. If it's not a Falchion it's still pretty consistent with medieval sword desin. Quite conservative really.


-------------
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 17:31
Well, the pictures are from the http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm%20 - The Maciejowski Bible. -"...Of French origin, the Maciejowski Bible was commissioned by King Louis IX (Saint Louis) of France (1214 - 1270). Even the most authoritative sources can only stipulate with certainty that it was created somewhere between 1244 - 1254AD; hence, the oft cited "Circa 1250"..."
The explanation of the authors of the site, is that this is a "a two-handed Glaive". And also the archers are indeed, not mounted.

@Northman
Walter Scott's novels were my first books on medieval warfare. There everything is romantic and beautiful, even the fierce battles. Although, as it appears they give a not very accurate impression on the subject.




Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 14:40
yeah as expected it is French:



David Nicolle says it might be the faussart, a weapon only known from written sources. anyways, i personally favour two-handed glaive over falchion.


-------------


Posted By: Jubelu
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 14:33
That is neither a Falchion nor a Glaive. First it lacks a crossguard. Glaive sounds more reasonable, but a basic glaive is a polearms with long wooden-shaft. This weapon, although resembles features of a Glaive, apparently used for close combat. This primary source is supposed to be composed in 1250, generally not the age of polearms. Bear in mind that Glaive, Fauchard  and Voulge developed at least in the late quarter of XIV century, which is Late Medieval.


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 17:27
The blade shape is akin to the Scamaseax. They also had no crossguard and similiar hilts. However were a little too short. The one below from the British Museum is 83cm approx.
 


-------------
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 19:15
The modern name for it is a "warbrand"
 
A possible ancient name is a faussart (as Jubelu suggests), which along with falchion, falx, falce and falcata all derive from the latin word 'fal' (Scythe) so it's a scythe.
 
Either way it's generally believed not to be a sword, but a cut down polearm.
 
 
  http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1939&d=1025801658 - http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1939&d=1025801658
 
Faussart
 
 
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-67451172470216_1944_20794185 - http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-67451172470216_1944_20794185
 
Warbrand
 
 
 
 
 
 
Warbrand


-------------
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 20:24
There are 3 examples of the same weapon in the Collection housed in the Imperial Residence in Nurnberg.

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: deadkenny
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 20:58
Originally posted by Desperado

The following pictures clearly show the true brutality
of the medieval warfare: ....

Where's the romanticism of chivalry - this is a pure butchery.


Although the whole 'knight thing' is 'romanticized' in western literature, the fact is the battles tended to consist of 'hacking' and 'bashing' each other with some pretty nasty weapons.  That, plus given the state of the 'medical arts' (leaches!) one would probably die eventually of any serious wound.




Posted By: Jubelu
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 02:46

This the point that we must make perfectly clear, Faussart/Faussard/Faussard is totally different from Fauchard as many schollars mistakenly assume. As Paul said, this is a characteristic French weapon was used in XII or XIII century. In my personal experience, faussar is not very long and not very popular in High Medieval warfare. Paul's excellent image needs a website for reference. Hopefully he still keeps it. I saw these pieces in Ebay and some Antique markets and 99 percents they are faked. Probably this weapon is extremely rare in terms of excavating.



Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 05:35
Jubelu
 
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=259&g_id=1&c_id=37 - http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=259&g_id=1&c_id=37
 
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Sikander
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 16:53
Also interesting to notice is that most of the wounds are on the head AS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!!!
 
In a Spanish magazine "La Aventura de la Historia", Carlos Vara, an historian and also a doctor, wrote an article ("A Muerte!") on the wounds on the corpses from the Battle of Wisby.
The bone cuts were tremendous! Some 30% of the mortal wounds were on the left side of the head (the parietal bone); a guy had both his legs cut off by one single stroke (a very hard thing to do, according to the author, any achievable by a very brutal and strong man).
Then there's a lot of injuries that couldn't be registred because they were inflicted on soft tisues (beley, etc.). In every case, the result was ghastly!
 
As for the weapon, I can add nothing more that what has been said. It's a sort of falchion, or faussart, or an addapted glaive (although in this case it would be bent downwards)
 
 


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 17:10
Originally posted by Paul

A possible ancient name is a faussart (as Jubelu suggests),


*cough*


Originally posted by Jubelu

As Paul said, this is a characteristic French weapon


*cough*

Originally posted by Temujin

yeah as expected it is French:

David Nicolle says it might be the faussart, a weapon only known from written sources. anyways, i personally favour two-handed glaive over falchion.


Tongue



-------------


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 22:02
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Paul

A possible ancient name is a faussart (as Jubelu suggests),


*cough*

David Nicolle says it might be the faussart, a weapon only known from written sources. anyways, i personally favour two-handed glaive over falchion.


Tongue

[/QUOTE]
 
 
Of course this is entirely Temujin's fault.
 
 
It's just I'm not entirely sure how yet....... hmm aliens, mind control rays, David Hasslehoff................


-------------
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 13:08
Originally posted by Paul

Of course this is entirely Temujin's fault.
 
 
It's just I'm not entirely sure how yet....... hmm aliens, mind control rays, David Hasslehoff................


LOLWink


-------------


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2011 at 19:05
Scythe blades of this type have been favored by eastern European armies since Classical times. The Dacians were particularly notorious for using them


-------------
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: ThrivingDad
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2012 at 12:22
That looks like a Dark Age warbrand to me.
 
 
*unauthorized entries in signature block/spam have been deleted. Don't spam again.
CV


-------------



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com