http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6466221.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6466221.stm

 

 

Schools will be able to ban pupils from wearing full-face veils on security, safety or learning grounds under new uniforms guidance issued by ministers.

It says efforts must be made to accommodate religious clothing, but stresses the importance of teachers and pupils being able to make eye contact.

It comes after a girl, aged 12, failed in her High Court bid to overturn her Buckinghamshire school's niqab ban.

The Islamic Human Rights Commission said the new guidance was "shocking".

But the Muslim Education Centre welcomed the move - saying that the veil created a "bridge of non-understanding between communities".

The issue of religious dress has become an increasingly complicated one for schools in recent years, with a handful of high profile cases going to court.

But it is the victory by the Buckinghamshire school, which cannot be named for legal reasons, that has prompted the updated guidance.

The school argued the veil made communication between teachers and pupils difficult and thus hampered learning.

Teachers needed to be able to tell if a pupil was enthusiastic, paying attention or even distressed but full-face veils prevented this, it said.

This position was upheld by the High Court - which refused to grant a judicial review - and is expected to form a key part of the guidance.

'Simply shocking'

The guidance says schools need to be able to identify individual pupils in order to maintain good order and spot intruders.

"If a pupil's face is obscured for any reason the teacher may not be able to judge their engagement with learning or secure their participation in discussions and practical activities," it adds.

Schools minister Jim Knight said: "Schools should consult parents and the wider community when setting uniform policy.

"And while they should make every effort to accommodate social, religious or medical requirements of individual pupils, the needs of safety, security and effective learning in the school must always take precedence."

The head teacher of the Buckinghamshire school, who also cannot be named, said it would be very useful to have some clear guidance from the Department for Education and Skills (DfES).

"It's not right that schools should have to be arguing this out case by case," she told the BBC News website.

"Obviously there's a trade-off between schools retaining autonomy over school uniform decisions, on the other hand we will have some very clear guidance from the DfES within which to work."

'Dismayed'

There were divided responses from the Muslim community.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, Massoud Shadjareh, said he was "dismayed" by the DfES guidance.

"Successive ministers dealing with education issues have failed to give proper guidance when requested by human rights campaigners about schools' obligations regarding religious dress, including the head scarf.

"To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.

But the Muslim Council of Britain's education spokesman, Tahir Alam, said that the new guidance did not "alter the position very much" and said "the vast majority of schools are able to solve these issues locally".

Dr Tag Hargey of the Muslim Education Centre welcomed the guidance.

"When you conceal the face, that actually not only dehumanises the person involved, but also creates a chasm, a gap, a bridge of non-understanding between communities and I think the sooner we can get rid of this veil, this face veiling, this face masking in Muslim societies across Britain, so much the better."

'Equality issue'

Ayshah Ishmael, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC wearing the veil promoted equality.

She said: "You're judged for who you are and not what you are, so I think there are two arguments to the whole equality issue."

The Muslim Council of Britain has already urged schools to take into account Muslim pupils' needs to dress modestly and avoid tight-fitting or transparent garments.

The DfES said it was not ordering or advising head teachers to ban the veil, simply confirming that they have the ability to do so if they wish, so long as they carry out proper consultation.

'Breaches'

Association of School and College Leaders' general secretary Dr John Dunford said he was pleased the government is supporting school leaders in upholding school uniforms.

"Repeated and blatant breaches of uniform policy undermine the school ethos," he added.

Education spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain Tahir Alam said the new guidelines did not alter the position, because the issue remained with governing bodies and communities to resolve.

"The vast majority of schools are able to solve these issues locally, and that should continue to be the case. We have to be sensible in the way we address these issues."

 

We had a similar case recently, exept this was a teacher who wanted to wear a veil. I think that the face of a teacher should be visible to the pupils. If the woman wants to wear it outside of school, it is her choice, but a school has the right to determine how they want their teachers to dress or display.

 

What makes me wonder is the pick and choose mentality on religion of these women. They want to display a severe religious attitude, but at the same time they want to enjoy the full rights and possibilities of a western society. You cannot have it all: if you want to wear a face veil, you have to deal with the fact that it is not accepted in most occupations in the country you live in. If you want these jobs anyway, you cannot dress like that.

 

Turning up in drag, or in bikini or so is not accepted either, although it is peoples free decision to wear it in their private time.

 

 

Edit - Oh, and Aydin, copy-pasting large pieces of text without reference or comment is considered plagiarism, which is against the CoC, as well as against the law. Please add a link to the source and some motivation as to why you posted this article, as I have a sneaking suspicion you did it simply to provoke.

        When living in a host country peeps should adhere to the same cack that we are all expected to follow and not promote themselves as an exception to the rule.

       Common sense should prevail and issues akin to this should be binned from the onset without incurring cost to the tax payers or the legal aid budget.

          

@ Ovidius

 

I did not use the word Hypocrite anywhere, you did that. I do not see them as hypocritical, just whimsical. And I did not say everyone should adhere to a norm, I said that everyone who wants to be accepted into a society must show some willingness to live in that society.

 

I am not in favor of school uniforms at all. I just think that in a society where not showing your face is impolite and even insulting, wearing a face veil is not always acceptable. Anyone who wears it anyway, has to face the effects.

 

In no school anywhere it is allowed to wear a balaclava in class, and no-one finds that strange. In fact, it is considered totally normal that wearing balaclavas is not accepted. Even if I would make a great effort to show that wearing a balaclava is part of my convictions in life, I would still not be able to wear it. In fact, in all schools I know, wearing a hat or cap in class is not allowed. Exeptions however are made for headscarves and turbands for religious reasons. So society here has 'accomodated differences'.

 

In many jobs, it is required to look representable. If I can get fired for dying my hair green, why not for covering my face?

 

But toleration of culture or religion only goes as far as the fundamental values of the society. We do not tolerate female circumcision, even though it is an established cultural habit elsewhere. Showing your face to people is also a value of western society.

   Why should we ban our own religious festivals out of fear of offending anyone.

              The majority suffer so the minority can't make complaint

                  

 anyways enough is enough and if peeps can't accept a host countries laws and such then they can always leave.

                          

      true story:

       Two girls working in a government office; one a muslim and the other a catholic. The muslim girl was allowed to cover her face with a veil akin to her beliefs but the catholic girl was told to remove her crucifix from around her neck in case it offended the other lass.

                    Who are the ones really being victimised?

                   

 

In no school anywhere it is allowed to wear a balaclava in class, and no-one finds that strange. In fact, it is considered totally normal that wearing balaclavas is not accepted. Even if I would make a great effort to show that wearing a balaclava is part of my convictions in life, I would still not be able to wear it. In fact, in all schools I know, wearing a hat or cap in class is not allowed. Exeptions however are made for headscarves and turbands for religious reasons. So society here has 'accomodated differences'.

So what, how are balaclavas comparable to Veils? Where is the evidence that someone needs to wear a balaclave. If they had something to hide on their face, a face mask would be acceptable. Expression of Faith in this nation is part of our rights, veils are part of the beliefs of certain women. Banning them should be against the law.

 

In many jobs, it is required to look representable. If I can get fired for dying my hair green, why not for covering my face?

Thats ridiculous. You dye your hair greed for what reason? Fun? Its quite clear that dying your hair green in this way is stupid. Wearing a veil is part of a religion. Covering you hair in a Turban would not be unnacceptable.

 

But toleration of culture or religion only goes as far as the fundamental values of the society. We do not tolerate female circumcision, even though it is an established cultural habit elsewhere. Showing your face to people is also a value of western society.

How is showing your face an important part of Western Social values? We live in a Multicultural society, part of that IDEAL isthat we can cope with differences in culture, that differ from the mainstream. I am not offended by veils whatsoever, they do not offend me, they are not degrading my way of life.

Short skirts, tight shirts, low cut tops - they offend me, seriously. I don't want to see peoples breasts.

true story:        Two girls working in a government office; one a muslim and the other a catholic. The muslim girl was allowed to cover her face with a veil akin to her beliefs but the catholic girl was told to remove her crucifix from around her neck in case it offended the other lass

How is that true? The Crucifix case was British Airways as far as I was aware. They told her to remove it because it was against their uniform policiy, they later removed that after she complained. She continues to wear her crucifix.

Wearing a Crucifix is, in my opinion, a sin. It is not part of the Christian faith. But If people believe that they need to wear a crucifix, so long as it does not pose a risk to other people or the person (so you shouldn't wear a crucifix if you are a fireman for example).

Some of our local schools even took to banning Christmas celebration in case they offended minority groups; instead they had themselves  something called a festival of light.

Well this is positive discrimination. What i find ridiculous is that it is used as a reason to why veils should be banned. Christmas shouldn't be celebrated in schools, not because of the offence it causes (nor is that the reason it is banned), but because Christmas is a Christian festival. Most of the Nations population are atheists, why should they be forced to celebrate Christmas. Unless you are talking about Father Christmas, which shouldnt' be celebrated simply because it promotes Consumerism.


Anyhow, Wearing a veil does not disclude you from society. IT is merely a reflection of the increasing narrow mind of the population. If you want to pomote freedom in society, you cannot make exceptions and ban people from 'wearing' something. The only case where this is acceptable is if something is offensive - so swear words for example. In the case of Schools and uniforms, there should be Exceptions for those that are different, in whatever way they are different. We should CELEBRATE DIVERSITY, not push everyone to be the same.

Freedom of Religion is part of the Universal Declaration of Human rights and Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights. We cannot have free religion, then make exceptions for parts of other relgions that we don't like. This is the real hypocracy here. I'd rather keep my freedoms, rather then allow them to be broken down. Although, I've noticed that people would rather worship division and hatred, rather then freedom, even though they preach freedom constantly. Freedom has come to mean the right to be a Western, Capatalist, Democratic, Middle Class member of society.

    Were I to say wearing a veil in my opinion is a sin and were I to say your religious festivals should be banned because to me they are pagan festivals then I'm sure you'd be outraged.

           Seems we've all to respect your faith and your religious values but you can demean our way of life upon a whim.

                      

       I don't reckon to participate in this topic of discussion any further for fear of speaking my mind .

                      

I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over this. Muslimas are not being asked to walk the streets naked... Muslims are not asked to forsake their faith...

 

I am not intolerant of religions of convictions of anyone (exept, right-wing politics, I am defenately intolerant of them). The only thing I said is that I think schools and companies have the right to ask people who work for them to show their faces.

 

If they want to wear whatever in the streets, fine. If they want to wear a scarf covering their hair and face, fine. If they want to pray during workdays, fine. All I think is that when you want to cover your face in western society, you should not be surprised people reacting less than joyous to that.

 

What on earth is the problem with that? Why is this suddenly a debate about muslim-bashing? And what on earth does this have to do at muslims anyway? There are a lot of muslims who get on fine without covering their faces. In fact, I do not think that Islam specifically states that the face should be fully covered.

 

And Ovidius, the wearing of the veil is a voluntary action. If it is not a free choice, we should defenately ban it, because if women are forced to wear it, it is degradation and abuse. And that is illegal for sure.

 

And I do still wonder at the women who wear these veils and do a full time job anyway. As far as I know, the same branch of Islam that wants women to cover up like that is also the branch that is not too enhusiastic about women working anyway...

 

Holland, the ultra socialist country where the government carefully regulates the spiritually degraded lives of the populace through legalization of Marijuana and prostitution supermarkets. - Vulkan02

 

 

 

???????????????????????

 

 

I just found them funny.

 

Well said,veil is not islamic(acording to me.), but I have no right  to interfere others job..

 

I should find discrimination at school is unacceptable. I dont care much about companies.

 

 

 

 

At least here it's simply very impolite not to show your face to the one you're speaking to and doing it makes people uneasy, which is probably a main reason to why veils are generally disliked. Guess the same goes for her?

 

 

I think forcing some one to not wear something is more impolite.(Specially, when this wearing is related with religion)

 

Like Syrbiorn said, it it generally impolite here to hide your face. That is our culture. It has nothing to do with creating a 'normative' society. There is ample opportunity in our culture to express beliefs or personal preferences without being offensive to others.

 

Please stop comparing this to handicapped and homosexual people, it is completely invalid and very insulting. First because being handicapped or homosexual is not a choice, second because homosxuality in particular is something that is not in anybodies face, and thirdly because asking people to please not cover their faces when interacting with others has nothing to do with discrimination.

 

Discrimination is when people are judged on religion, sexuality, looks, race or background. This is not the case here. People are being judged on behaviour. Behaviour which is, once again, not inseperable from religion, as most muslims do not care about face veils and as Islam does not specifically support them.

 

And once again, I do not care what people wear in the streets, this is about specific situations.

 

 Infact, they are core of society building and changing actions and idea of people. So good weapon for asimilation.

 

@Ovidius

To take the example this all started about: a girl in school wearing a veil. I do not think it strange that this can be found unwanted. A teacher needs to see the face of his/her pupil to see reaction. How can you teach something to a girl if you cannot see if she understands what you are saying? You cannot see if she is paying attention? She could be sleeping under there... or she could be crying.

 

And you are contradicting yourself on the education issue. You say girls who want to wear the veil should not be send to private schools to keep them in society. But by wearing a veil they place themselves outside of it. It cannot be both ways: either they are allowed to stick to their own beliefs, and in this case there is no problem with them going to private schools who advocate these beliefs, or they must be kept withing the greater society, which means they should not be allowed to place themselves outside of it by wearing a veil.

 

Your argument about 'faith is faith' is silly. Why should we not be allowed to question faith? Whatever that faith might be? We have no problem rejecting Scientology. We have no problem judging the Catholic church's position on contraceptives.

Should we just accept muslim men beating their wives and daugthers in name of faith, even though it is against our laws and even though for many muslims this is in no way seen as part of Islam? Just because they claim that that faith is their faith?

 

As for the discrimination, I already explained myself above clearly. I see no need to repeat myself.

 

And I already said, yes, not showing your face is a cultural thing. I once got a negative mark on my work-evaluation selling coffee at the train station for not making enough eye-contact with my clients.

 

As for the small numbers of women involved: should we ignore a problem because it is small? And the number is growing fast. And it is causing a problem, because it increases intolerance and misunderstanding.

 

@ Lotus

I like cultural diversity as well. But face-veils do little to enhance it, in my opinion.

You think it's descrimination for not allowing a child to wear something they barely understand? Well wait til they get to school and kids there who don't understand it at all start picking on them? Why would you want your child to stick out like a sore thumb?

It will cause distractions, and it will cause problems. Hell, I remember when kids were picked on for dressing alittle out of the ordinary, now you want them to be allowed to dress pretty much Alien to what society is used to? That is asking for problems and no child should have to go through it in school.

Kids are some of the worse when it comes to discrimination because they don't understand their words yet, and that could affect a child for a very long time.

 

Keep'em out of school. A teacher can't have a Crucifix or talk about Religion in school, so I think people can risk not covering their face in a sealed off building for 6 hours.

People should not tolerate(Like a father toleration to his child) each  other,  people  should  respect rights of different people.

 

Our public systems have nothing to do with "Ethnic Superiority". I can't believe thats your arguement for something you don't agree with.

 

Schools don't want it because it creates are target for ridicule and a distraction.

 

There are more cons then there are Pros for having it in school. Infact I don't think their is a pro quality for it in school, it doesn't help you to learn quicker does it?

Well, You give a lot of right to minorities? You give? That is excatly what I mean. You are giving nothing to them. These are already their rights. I hope you did see my point.

 

 

My friend, It is not your country. It is both your and their country. So you are accepting them to their country?

 

 

 

 

I think "bans" on any kind of garb, religious or otherwise, are draconian and backwards in nature.  The agenda seems to be more of forced assimilation than anything else.

 

Face veils, on the other hand, are simply ridiculous - why hide the face? Such a thing is not congruent with an open society.

But what your discussing has more to do with our laws then individual thoughts. And their my friend is why I question your idea of Ethinic Superiority. Our laws don't have them for the majority at all.

My friend, It is not your country. It is both your and their country. So you are accepting them to their country?

Nope, he was right, America belongs to Americans. We accept others to come into our nation, to become apart of us, to add to our culture, but not to change our laws and country to make it one they came from. Religions don't belong in secular buildings, so the head scarf doesn't either.

Secular buildings shouldn't support a religion at all. We aren't allowed to wear masks, or even hats, why should a religion get special treatment to wear what they want? You want equality, then keep it to a minimum.

There's still no pros or cons for it. Didn't someone in this thread even say it isn't a requirement of Islam?

We need to protect people from Religions basically.

Why would we want to do that, your being pretty extreme.

There are many things alien to culture that go on in schools, besides religion and veils.

Like what? So far I've seen types of cloths and hair styles banned because they were to extreme, and thats with famliar cultures.

It's funny that we are discussing this, just now CNN had a debate on it.

 

So I brought up what up a question before, is this really a requirement of Islam, that women must hide their faces? Or is this a cultural thing?

 

 

More moves such as these should be made to protect the Western identity.

Face veil is nothing more than a primitive middle ages Middle Eastern tradition. So it can not be represented as "I should wear face veil because I am a Muslim".

 

As being a Muslim I am strongly opposing to those who combine face veil, head scarf with Islam. Islam can not be explained or understood with a piece of fabric.

 

Just look at inside of your head not head scarf. Focus on smile not face veil. Do not hot up by seeing a hair of a woman. If you can not control yourself it means that your self-control is not strong enough to be a good Muslim. To control yourself you do not have the right to force women to live as canned food.

 

Every years millions of animals are sacrificed for pilgrime in Macca. But we are killing millions of animals and throw away. Is this worship? Is this Islam? No!  This is a clear massacre. Islam did not say you just kill the animals. Islam says help to the poor people and worry about them. Give the meats to the poors....

 

Exactly the same situation with face veil. You are misinterpreting Islam and you are destroying it. If Saudis are too much worry about Islam so they can start to make an organization in Macca to send these millions of tons of meats to the poor people of the world. They have money for this but if you focus too much on fabrics on head you may forget what is inside of the head.

 

The face veil is a matter of freedom not religion. Nobody and any kind of "belief" can obscure the wonderful smiles of small children, young girls.

 

Now that is not very kind, Omar. I do not consider myself ethically superior. I just prefer a face to talk to. With facial expressions and such. Not a piece of fabric.

 

S&D. I disagree with you on the religions on schools things. People are allowed to show their religion, if they want to. Wearing crosses, stars, skullcaps, turbans and Hijans are fine by me. But wearing a niquab does not express religion, it expresses a disregard for the people around you.

 

 

Actually we are, but we're born that way so it's not really our fault.

 

As for the face veil issue in schools, I'm a firm believer in school uniforms (not practiced in this country) so it's not hard to make up my mind. Make everyone wear the same and you eliminate issues relating to clothes and fashion, religion, identity or whatever. The school is an institution for learning, not a catwalk to show off fashion or a temple where you demonstrate how religious you are.

 

above?You let them  to live their own culture a bit.above?

 

 

Your ethinic superiority is that. You see your own(personal) culture better and you tolerate other cultures. 

 

Infact, you are only giving a bit right, that they already should own.

 

 

How good are you.  It is good you permit them to live too..

 

Good points, Search. America is, well, for Americans. We have our traditions, our culture, and our way of life, and when people come over here to make their way in the world, they ought to have to adapt around the pre-existing culture;

 

why? are you better than them? do your culture better than their culture? do you own USA more than them? why should they follow your culture?

 

why not, all americans are not like native americans?

 

 

americans are a little different. They are more open minded to others.(Maybe, having too much different ethics helped them much.) But I am not talking about nations but people...

 

They love themself much because they let others to live their own culture  a bit.

 

 

Good idea, let all people use veil So We will also eliminate issues relating to colour, face and whatever..

 

I am sure, It is difficult for a child to accept difference than older people.. It is a know fact, older people are more ready for new ideas, cultures and people. arent they?

 

Well o.k. its not discrimination as such, the point I was trying to make was wearing a school uniform treats everybody the same, regardless of race or religion.

 

If someone wants to display their Muslim upbringing then isn�t wearing the normal school uniform with the Hijab enough?

 

 

The north Europeans do go around acting like they are ethically superior (just listen to one of Blairs speeches), Americans don't.

 

That seems a little harsh, what speech did you have in mind Omar?

 

Individuals who promote the idea of ethic supereority are not only Northeren Europeans.  Ther ranks include Asians, Iranians etc. as well. 

 

One could easily make the argument that many Moslem Arabs feel that they are inherently morally superior to ther people due to their religion.  

Your ethinic superiority is that. You see your own(personal) culture better and you tolerate other cultures.

I do? Well thanks for informing on how I feel, because for some odd reason I can't make conclusions for myself.

Infact, you are only giving a bit right, that they already should own.

HUH???

How good are you.  It is good you permit them to live too..

Why wouldn'twe let them live? Do you kill people off in your country?

We support other cultures here so, but we don't like to think that we have to bow down to a new one.

why? are you better than them? do your culture better than their culture? do you own USA more than them? why should they follow your culture?

lol Do you read what we say, or just make up stuff as you go along. We've been saying we don't believe anyone is inferior, but there is a established culture here. If you come to a new country, that should be enough reason to try and fit in with your new surroundings. We aren't talking about banning the veil outside of schools are we?

why not, all americans are not like native americans?

Native Americans also didn't create the United States, our ancestors did. And if you want us to change that, then build us a time machine and we'll try to change the past to make you happy.

americans are a little different. They are more open minded to others.

You just said the opposite above.

But I am not talking about nations but people...

I was talking about our, infact this whole thing is about laws and rules. It doesn't matter where you go in the world, your always going to find people with different opinions.

They love themself much because they let others to live their own culture  a bit.

The only arguements you made so far are ones where you put words in our mouth. You can continue doing that, but it won't get you anywhere.

No,  Islam dont require it, but It is not important what islam want or not. Important thing is what  these people want.

And those people can wear whatever they want outside of school. But now that you say it has nothing to do with religion, there is absolutly no reason to have it in school. No other culture gets favored. And if you say the American culture does, part of the reason maybe it's a established one here, no other group had a problem with it in the past, it's the norm. It also allows the teacher to see a childs face, which many teachers here believe it's important.

I should also say, I dont see much difference to hide face or other part of body. It is not bad, but only different. It would be better,, If people stop to accept this thing, as a bad habit.(Cultural superiority?)

I love your logic, if they don't agree with it, then they are BIGOTS!

Create a Muslim private school, then you can wearing the veil if you'd like. But in public school, you don't wear things to hide your face.

I should also add, nobody have right to force someone to show part of her body.

Your right, and if they can find a private school that allows them to hide their face, then they can go there.

I think people stop to impose their ideas to others. Noone forced you to show part of your body. So dont force others for this.

No one forced them to go to another country that has established itself. No one forced them to go to a public school. No one has forced the parents to not home school them. Everything they do is a choice, and when they make the choice, they usually have to follow the rules for them.

niquab is nor evil not bad.

I never said it was, I just don't think it belongs in a secular building. And don't believe it should even further since it doesn't have anything to do with religion.

It is just different.

There are things in our culture we can't where in schools, and those aren't out of the norm at all.

So It does not need tolerance but acceptance.

It's accepted, outside of schools.

 

 

They  can  do what they want only where  I want is a bit. They can wear what they want only out side of school.?

 

support? bow? Just let them to do what they want except harming you. I dont think some cloth will harm you.

Our culture is being able to identify a person with there face. So is our established culture wrong?

is it realy so much important where do you  ban?

Wearing things that cover your face has never been allowed in schools where I live. Why should we change it now? The rules have always been established.

Also, school are most important buildings of society.  Dont underestimate that ban.

Your right, people should be going to school, where what is accepted and not worried about what they are wearing. The veil is pointless in education and can only cause distractions. Teachers say they also like to see the faces of their students in order to communicate with them. Emotion in faces plays a huge part in communication here, especially in children who may not want to speak.

so, should these guys use weapon against you?

Nope, why should they? They also get free college, don't have to pay taxes, and can govern themselves as if in a seperate state.

they should treat you just how your ancestors treated natives?

I've always said on these boards I don't except what my ancestors did when and if they were cruel. But I can't change what they did either, I may have their genes, but I'm not them. And I'm also proud of the hardships and good accomplments they'd done.

They are not threating  you, only want to wear some extra cloths.

And they could where the rules allow them. I don't even agree with religions hiding their face, I'm definitly not going to agree when it's something that is culture. I'm fine with them wearing it outside, in private schools. But not in secular buildings have have dress codes.

That is their culture, It is a traditional cloth.

So their culture is superior? They come here where our culture is established, where we have dress codes in place for secular buildings, but they can do whatever they'd like? What we say doesn't matter?

well, It looks like some people think that they should not show some part of their body. will your force them?

We should be forced to change our ways? Don't the males in this culture show their face?

no.

No?? You say we attack it because we don't understand it or we think our culture is superior. Isn't that the line of thought of a bigot?

I've been saying that we have rules in place, and that we have a culture, and that we don't mind a culture following what they believe outside of areas that don't have a dress code.

I think one of the main things in our culture that may gve me this train of thought is the idea when you come into our homes and buildings, you follow the rules. I mean, one of those cultural rules is taking off your hat when you enter someones home, or you wait til your invited in.

create a private school, then you can ban wearing the veil if you'd like. Public schools are for everyone.  Not only for majority, not only for minority.

Private schools are hte ones that set the rules for out of the ordinary. Public is for everyone, but there is and has been a dress code so not to cause copnflict. Your not even allowed to wear bandanas around your neck, or wear a hat in school. There are alot of rules in school that forbid certain dress. One of them is you can't mask your face.

so you will force them too show their body at public shool. Well.

No, I believe thats against the dress code.

Rules are not such holy things. Aim of rules are benefits of people, not to suppress people.

So what makes a cultures rule of wearing a veil superior then the established one they moved to by their choice? And how does this veil give benefits for a child in the education system?

 

secular buildings? schools, hospitals, courts?  will you let the to die at hospital? will you let them to be treated unfair at courts? or will you let them to not educate themself.

I think it would be removed in a hospital anyways. Is the women so chained to her culture that she'd rather die then be saved?

In court I believe you can't wear it, especially if your apart of whats going on. Though a witness may be able to keep the veil on.

Anyway, arent some primary education at USA is must? So even,, they want to flee from showing their body, they cant flee.. They should go to school and show their face.

It is something a child has to go to, we don't discrimnate there. All children of all origins have to attend as a citizen unless theyare home schooled. They also have the option of finding a private school.

are you sure, we are not talking about churchs?

Girls aren't allowed to wear skirts of any length in public school as a example.

No, It is tolerated outside of school..

No, I'm pretty sure it's accepted. Around here I haven't seen any people have a problem with it. Have you been to the US since your so positive about what you say? Because I haven't expierenced anything contrary to what I've said.

 

      Or will there be excuses to avoid physical eduction on religious ground because you don't want to remove your veil or wear the standard school sportswear uniform (ie. polo shirts/sports shorts/swim wear etc) and have your legs/arms/a*s on view to any male teacher or schoolboy who happens by.

     For if the veil can be removed during physical education (swimming?) then it can be removed during other classes.

      

     p.s. okay I said I wasn't going to participate in this thread but I just wanted to know if there were times whilst at school and possibly in the company of males (teachers or schoolboys) that these veils could/would be removed without incurring excuses.

     I've been thinking that maybe Public Non Denominational School authorities don't want a religious domino effect of any sort (due to them being classed as non denominational) and maybe thats why they don't want veils worn and why they'd rather stick to school uniform policy. (like it or lump it; keeps everyone the same and with minimal segregational issue) 

              

     Opening a can of proverbial worms springs to mind and I'm sure the non denominational classed public school decision makers can recognise further related issue should they relent even the slightest in their decision making.

            

 

It is good people have not always such ideas. Or we would still have slavery or such things.

 

 

 

 

       Yeh! but then everyone who attends a public multi racial non denominational school has to accept school policy and  the possibility of forfeiture of certain rights. ( No face veils for some and no celebrating christmas for others). 

    

        

  How do public non denominational schools manage to teach religious education? Does everyone get segregated to various different religious classes or has separate RE classes been done away with in favour of a multi diversified cosmopolitan approach.

 

This issue is part of the bigger questions concerning multiculturalism and integration of immigrants. In the Quebec's election, there has been some debate on this issue and there are signs of growing concerns about the policies of multiculturalism that have serious implications for the Western societies in general.

 

My professor

 

Not a good comperation. Do christians see celebrating christmas as a esential part of  their religion? Also, I dont see any problem,  If  people do whatever they want, If they dont endanger others education.

 

 

 How do public non denominational schools manage to teach religious education? Does everyone get segregated to various different religious classes or has separate RE classes been done away with in favour of a multi diversified cosmopolitan approach.

 

who is talking about teaching religion? They are not harming anyone so you dont need  to harm(with restricting their rights) them.

 

 

 

 

It's not about "my ethics is better than your ethics". It's about what's standard here - or everywhere. If I'd go to Saudi Arabia (ignoring that they'd never let me in in the first place) or any other place where short pants  and t-shirt is not very polite to run around it, I'd sure as hell adapt to the local customs. It's normal courtesy and decency. No one demands that people coming here adapt to our customs, but don't expect that people will treat anyone who does something rude (read:cover their faces when interacting with other people) the same way they'd treat someone who does adopt. This goes for every place in the world. 

 

     Seems everyone and everything is to revolve around your religion regardless.

                   

   

        

             

       

              

                  

 

But their islam or beliefs  does require. So that is their wish,  their ideas, their ethics and absolutely their freedom.

 

                     I stand corrected.

     Seems everyone and everything is to revolve around their islam religion regardless.

 

They are not at all totally different. Laws reflect the society, are written by people and influenced by people. They are not independent from each other.

 

Pardon me if I have trouble sympathizing with your arguments, Mortaza, but double standards sit ill with me. I seem to recall that you were all in favor of deliberately persecuting the Ecumenical Patriarch for purely nationalistic reasons ( http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16294&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16294&PN=1 ); now you are a freedom loving idealist?

 

Patriarchate itself is not problem, problem is his international power.     It is a sad reality, we have another pope at our beatiful city, and sadly we should live with him.So weakining him is not a bad idea. These acts are not a religous based acts, but politic one.

 

 

That said, I do not support the face veil ban, just as I do not support any other act of religious or cultural persecution. Injustice is injustice, period. Our professed pluralism obligates us to respect an individual's freedom of conscience. More importantly, for Christians, our Lord Christ commands it!

 

-Akolouthos

 

well so what? arent your world evolve your own ideas or belief. do you live acording to  others ideas?

So  They are they, not us. Your people, not my.

 

Second, what is whim? Not seeing their face?

 

 

But if these people come to Europe and they keep spitting in the street, people will give them dirty looks, and keep away from them, and talk about then behind their backs. Of course, there is no law agains spitting in the streets, and no one can force them to stop it. And I doubt many people will demand a law against spitting in the street. But if these people want to fit in, they will have to stop doing it.

 

BUT, if these people go to school here, and burp and spit in class, they will be asked to please stop doing it, or else remove themselves from school. Now, you can imagine that someone spitting and burping loudly in class is making it very hard, is not impossible, for a teacher to teach properly. If the pupil refuses to either stop, or leave, the school may be forced to make a rule against spitting and burping loudly in class, (a rule not formerly needed, because for most people, it seemed obvious that spitting and burping loudly in class is not acceptable) to keep these pupils away, and so make sure no other people are bothered by their lacking ability to adhere to the normal rules of polite behaviour in society.

 

Now replace 'spitting and burping' with 'covering face', and tell me why it should be different.

 

And please, I need something better than 'it is religion' crap. I tolerate everyones right to believe as they want, but I see no reason why we should accept religion (or culture, or tradition) as an excuse to be rude or offensive on purpose.

 

I think, comparing this  two is wrong.  other childs or teachers would not be harmed from this?

 

It is a self-harming action(acording to me, It looks like these people does not see at harming) not harming enviroment.

 

purpose?  how do we know their purpose?

 

 

 

 

In the real world that's how it works. The ideal world you puts up doesn't exist. Yes, they are citizens. However, that doesn't mean people can do whatever they want just because of a different origin. That goes for natives as well: you can't show up naked in school, or wear hats indoors. Same rules apply to everyone. Of course nobody expects immigrants to become copies of the natives, but in a real world the natives do expect that the people they open the borders and welcome to their society adapt towards the culture and norms that are prevalent. Nowhere but in Europe it seems to be expected that it's the original natives who should do the major adapting.

 

I do believe immigration is a good thing - in any case it's inevitable and unstoppable. However some immigration causes problem due to cultural differences, and these need to be solved in a civilized manner. I realise both sides have to meet in the middle, though I do believe that in between-point should be weighed towards the majority and not the other way around.

 

 

As for the veil ban in schools: yes I think it's ok. Just as it's ok for school to forbid their students not to wear caps indoors.

 

 

 

Hmm,  how can be not seeing somebody face is such important.

 

For you perhaps. Here it's rude, something that might even be perceived aggressive. It's as simple as that.

 

 

 

     seems we are going round in circles

               

  They can be whatever they elect they want to be as long as they the minority accept that We of the majority happen to live in this country too and We with a majority say on how things get done.

   

     

   

                        

    

  

 

No, I did not think you would accept the comparison, as it is pretty obvious you will not accept anything that harms your case. But I made the comparison anyway because the argument only evolves around one issue: Your failure to understand what is so rude about covering faces. You do however, I assume, understand what is rude about spitting and burping.

 

Now you will jast have to take my word, and that of others here, on it, that to us, spitting and covering your face are both about equally rude. Neither does directly harm anyone, but it is still rude. Now with that in mind, please look at the debate again.

 

As for purpose. If people offend because they do not know what or how is proper or wrong, they offend by accident, and it is no big deal. (as ong as they apologise). Indeed, it seems to be the highlight of politeness to make sure a guest does not feel embarassed by their mistakes, which is why over 40 years ago, our queen drank the water from her fingerbowl, because her African visitor did so.

 

But people who do know what behaviour or action is wrong or offesive, and do it anyway, offend on purpose. They show to the world, not just the offence itself, but a complete disregard for what people think or feel. That is rude to the bone.

ahhh, great. So I am curious when veil Itself(Not only hiding their face) would become rude. 

 

Should we ban to eating at hospital, school or court because of ramadan ?At Turkey, eating at ramadan is rude for majority 

 

I can understand It is rude for europeans people, I even accept social  pressure, but I  dont accept  to ban something because It is rude.

 

 

I think that is not what  you understand. Educate them or do whatever you want, but dont ban action.

 

 

 

 

By the way,  Spiting street at Turkey is banned.(We accept spitting as a harm to enviroment.)

 

would you like it, If you are prosecuted because of your rudeness?

 

 

I see it as harming not rude.(I asked a lot time, what is harm of veiling for that reason.)

 

Maybe, We need a law student. So She can say us,  If Law system punish rudeness  or not.

 

 

 

You're not gonna be prosecuted for wearing a veil in school...

 

I see it as harming not rude.(I asked a lot time, what is harm of veiling for that reason.)

What's the harm in spitting? Is it harmful to sneeze too? Personally I find such a law ridiculous, though if that's the norm in your country I'd abide to it.

 

Who has been talking about harm anyway? It's not about harming. No one is harmed by someone wearing a cap in school either, but it's still forbidden.

 

Wearing something to mask your face is seen as rude. In Western society it's pretty important to have face to face interaction. People that wear these veils won't be getting jobs that require them to socilalize, so thats already putting themselves down.

And school is one of the places children learn to socialize not just education. I think masking your face can really hamper that. There's alot more that goes into socializing then just speech.

Also by wearing the veils, other children might not brefriend them as looks seem to always play rolls in social groups, more so at younger ages.

This is mostly observation and politness I learned living in this society all my life.