Baltic Crusades
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Category: Regional History or Period History
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Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 04:23
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Topic: Baltic Crusades
Posted By: Top Gun
Subject: Baltic Crusades
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:10
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what purpose was these crusades and had it succes http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9886~per=41 - http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9886~per=41 |
Replies:
Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:14
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The baltic crusades were meant to kill or convert the proud Pagan people's of the baltic to Christianity. So much for a nice tolerant religion that preaches love for all mankind!
------------- Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail. Edward Abbey |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 15:47
The purpose was to seize the control of trading roads for merchants, conquer new lands and establish estates for knights and convert population to Christianity for priests. These three groups formed whole crusade movement Baltic. The crusade (carried out by infamous Teutonic Order) had its success in modern Latvia, Estonia and Prussia though it didn't manage to brake the power of the last pagan stronghold of Europe - Lithuania. Speaking about that book - for me it seems to be more about Scandinavic forays in Finland and contacts with norther Russian principalities most notably - Novgorod. Not much about actual crusades in Baltic lands. ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 16:12
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True.
As the tradition goes, Sweden conquered and christened Finland through three crusades; first one taking place in the 1150s, the second in the 1230s, and the last in the 1290s. Sweden held Finland for 600 years after this, making the Swedish crusades the most long-term successful of them all. ------------- |
Posted By: Jagiello
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 16:20
Well don't look for a second ant my avatar
 ,but in fact the "last pagan stronghold-Lithunia" did not have any good army at all exept for some untrained and unequiped horse archers ,so it wasn't them who destroyed the Teutons.Read something about the battle of Grunwald-it was the "stronghold of christianity" Poland that mainly(with the help of the Lithunians,russians and tatars)that destroyed the teutons,not only at the battle of Grunwald,but during the long wars with the order-more than 100 years.(and the pagan stronghold was quicly "captured" by the polish priests and become another "stronghold of christianity" thanks to my people ) |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 16:44
Well since you don't have any proofs to your claims, I am not taking your comment seriously. Just few comments from my side to show that you have certainly biased look on Lithuanian medieval army. You mentioned Lithuanian horse archers which is obviously wrong as Lithuanians didn't have their own horse archer troops because of the terrain and countryside of their lands. Horse archers are for steppe. Though Lithuanians acquired horse archer mercenary corps from Tatars and southern Rus principalities.
You are certainly one of those nationalistics. Have seen your type here on AE and also on other sites. There are few things you all share which is claiming superiority of ones nation over other nations. Speaking about battle of Grunwald - It was victory of Lithuanian and Polish alliance, not exclusively Polish or Lithuanian. ------------- |
Posted By: Top Gun
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 14:15
easy please number one of the law her in the Netherlands is
FREEDOM ON EXPOSING YOU OPINION
and where it particulary swedish knights who joined or also some german ------------- |
Posted By: Kynsi
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 16:55
Im afraid that once again the true events are less exciting than the ones described in chronicles The first crusade has been revised latley and many scholars think that it might not have hapened at all. One might argue that the crusades to finland were really nothing like the crusades to Jerusalem. It has been long a very popular idea that Finland was litterally conquered through crusades but it is more likely that Finland was attatched to Sweden via Chritianity. Probably there were some "sword mission" going on but probably not in a very large scale. The third "crusade" to Carelia is most likely have taken place. The Carelians and Tawastians had long been raiding each others territories but this time the Tawastians would get help from Swedes as Novgorod had been supporting the Carelians. The main reason for the crusades were not at all to convert the pagan finns but really political and financial. Finland has long been a battle field for the two powers of Sweden and Russia(Novgorod). In the case of the third crusade the reason was for the swedes to get a foot hold to the Hansa trading route to east. One thing is certain though. The finns renounced their pagan beliefs during the "crusade times" (1100-1300). Though some documents can be found even from the 1600-1700s where pesants were accused of heresy  ------------- If you keep one eye on the past then you are blind in one eye, but if you forget the past then you are blind in both eyes -old russian saying |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 04:40
The same is true for regions of Western Europe, old faihts managing to cling on in some areas or bastardised into some other form. ------------- |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2010 at 19:46
Some pre Christian rituals were maintained intact, though the meanings behind the rituals may have changed.
An article in Archaeology described excavations at a site in Cornwall. The site was a natural spring and had been used for religous purposed since the bronze age. Following the arrival of Christianity, the site continued to be associated with pre Christian beliefs. At one point, local authorities ordered he spring filled in to discourage folk religion. It was soon re opened for "agricultural needs".
Anyways, the dig uncovered countless offerings of chickens dating from the Middle Ages though the 1700s. The offerings all had the same format. Then, the carbon 14 dating of some offerings were from the 1950s, and not the middle ages. The modern offerings had all the characteristics of the older ones.
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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 09:34
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Some things never really go away.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 12:18
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"Anyways, the dig uncovered countless offerings of chickens dating from the Middle Ages though the 1700s. The offerings all had the same format. Then, the carbon 14 dating of some offerings were from the 1950s, and not the middle ages. The modern offerings had all the characteristics of the older ones."
Could not some of us consider that the 14C tests were tainted? Or, hold your breath, "wrong?" Seriously! Just how could "the modern offerings" have, "had all of the characteristics of the older ones?" Was there any stratigraphy involved? It all just smells? DW, just accepted it when he wrote; "Some things never really go away." Which indicates that he has no problem believing that even in the 1950's people were preparing their "chicken sacrafice" in the same manner or style, that made it indistinguishable from sacrifices made many hundreds of years earlier! I am not sure that during the shortages that existed in Cornwall England, in the 1950's (and earlier) would have allowed the waste of a good chicken? Perhaps it was done by the German POW's who were forced to work for English families after the war? (possible?) I would even propose that these were "Cornish Game Hens?", or not! 
Perhaps this was just a nice place to have a bar-b-que? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 13:23
Easily, it is a very rural area and people passed the folk beliefs from generation to generation. Passing folk beliefs from generation to generation is not surprising. Traditional folk magic practioners in Appalachia and French Lousiana did the same thing, just over a shorter period of time (though the U.S. people may have more individual improvisations than their Cornish counter parts.)
More than likely, the offerings were made by a dwindling number of people who had a serious interest in the subject and sought out training from elderly people. The fact that it was a culturally isolated area (similar to Appalachia and South Louisiana) helped alot as well.
As a side note, Orthodox liturgies have remained the same over many, many centuries and the Catholic liturgy was only changed in the 1960s.
Shortages would have mnade the offering that much more of a sacrifice and therefore perceived as more powerful.
Good one.
. The Cornish locals did eat alot of cornish game hens, and they also made alot of folk offerings at a Bronze age site. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 13:42
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Or, perhaps, they did not?
Just why was there a division of hundreds of years? Or, at least it seems that the discoveries went from "the Middle Ages" directly to the 1950's CE! Were all of these old women in hiding? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 14:06
Sorry for giving that impression. The offerings that were found dated continously from the late middle ages through the rennasiance and up until the 1950s. The offering practices were passed from generation to generation among people interested in doing it "right". They were not made by people with 600 year life spans.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 14:42
Really? 
Thanks for the explanation! For, without continutity, the site would be worthless! But were some of the sacrifices dated to the 1800's, and later? You see, 14C testing is sometimes fooled by the material? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 14:53
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Interestingly, while watching Glenn Beck this afternoon, and after the visit of our President to my area, the broadcast was interrupted when Beck showed a number representing the "un-funded liability" of every American now living to pay for "promises!"
The number, shown was about $350,000.00 per person (American), now living! Hey, want to apply for a new car or new home loan? Just show this number to the loan officer! Laugh! Is Uncle Sam, now controlling your T V? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 04:40
Apologies Im bandying about axiomatic British concepts. It not a case of me accepting the dearth of chickens and the manner of their sacrifice but rather the peculiarity of the people of Cornwall, in which I find the continuance of such practices to be entirely conceivable if not in fact expected. Such would be true for various other regions of these isles. Also in such out of the way places old ideas and concepts hold on to the present day. A ramble through British Folk Lore would certainly enlighten such matters. That such practices with chickens should continue in parts of the country, though not neccessarily in the same manner (For such a claim would be as spurious as much of Welsh nationalsim, or indeed Cornish nationalism), rather unsurprising. Then again perhaps because Im British I come to accept such things as a norm. Not all of them were forced, many preferred to stay, and are still here to this day. ------------- |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:14
As a side note, Cornish miners routinely kept "lucky devil" statues in their mines until recently. The miners then offered the statues coins and other gifts in return for protection while mining.
The "devil" statues were not devils in the Judeao Christian sense, but were derived from a pre Christian god.
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:08
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Dr. Madden talks about the Wends who were a slavic group, who faced the brunt of the Baltic Crusades. I would have to study this more to gain a better understanding. As bad as these crusades were I gather the Wend were not exactly peaceful and that to some degree this was done in self defense. Control over land, Christian missionaries were being killed and also Christian villages were attacked.
I would need to look at a variety of sources to really gain a good understanding. There is always two sides to a story! ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 13:52
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But, DW, anecdotal sources say?
Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 16:43
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What anecdotal sources? I havent mentioned any.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 08:11
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DW, you wrote;
"A ramble through British Folk Lore would certainly enlighten such matters. That such practices with chickens should continue in parts of the country, though not neccessarily in the same manner (For such a claim would be as spurious as much of Welsh nationalsim, or indeed Cornish nationalism), rather unsurprising. Then again perhaps because Im British I come to accept such things as a norm." I would suggest that most all of the material found in such sources only preceed from anecdotal accounts? Perhaps I am wrong?  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 09:32
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You are. Some is undobtedly anecdotal, but alot is actually just continuing centuries old customs and practices.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2010 at 17:30
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I am wrong?
And you also wrote; "Some is undobtedly anecdotal, but alot is actually just continuing centuries old customs and practices." I would suggest that you look to your sources, and tell me, via your sources, just how "I am wrong" to consider them as anecdotal? Just where do you use other than "anectodal" sources?, to support anything? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2010 at 10:42
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Im not even going to bother.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 16:25
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Well! Why not?
Just what else do you have to do with your free time? It is certainly, at least to me, to contiune to bandy this idea around? But, perhaps?, it does indeed, deserve to be buried? PS, Perhaps we might consider just why certain people in Cornwall, would contiune such sacrifices, since it seems most all old Englich practices like these, seemed not to have travelled across the Atlantic to the New England, or as it seems, the colony of Virginia or another English King/ Queen? Did the people of Cornwall, not tend to leave England and move to the Americas', for any specific reason? Were they so set in their ways? Or were times so good for them that they saw no reason to leave their "old ways?" So much time, so little time to discuss! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 16:53
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I have no free time, Im a PhD student. Im sure Lovecraft would be most disappointed if no practices or eldritch and indescribable horro made it across the Atlantic to New England from Cornwall. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 17:58
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Sorry DreamWeaver! I had little idea just how compressed your time has become!
NO PHD, for me!  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 18:01
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translation translation conference paper translation its a daily grind
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 18:21
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DW, I will peruse my sources and notes! I know I have some information concerning the Baltic Crusades, as well as questions concerning the mysterious "Orders" which constituted both the beginning and the end of them! Two "Orders" which it seems, literally created the warrior nation of Germany!
Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 18:53
I think that is a good topic. Dreamweaver, do you have any ideas? We hear alot about Scots, Irish and English migration but far less about Welsh and Cornish.
Cornwall is a small place and the local culture was quickly getting anglicized during the late Colonial period. Maybe they did migrate, not as Cornish, but as "English". Or maybe the Welsh and Cornish had other reasons for not migrating in mass numbers?
Another good topic. Ireland Christianized very early and easily. That would seem to indicate the rapid disapereance of pagan customs from the island.
What about the other celtic fringe areas of Wales, Scottish highlands and Cornwall? Does rural Wales have pagan traditions or just Cornwall? Any ideas Dream Weaver?
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 18:58
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Actually someone has already done some investigation into these events;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_diaspora I paid particular attention to this part; "Some inhabitants of Tangier Island, Virginia, a former Cornish fishing settlement, have a Cornish accent that traces back to the Cornish settlers who settled there in 1686.[10]" Very early it seems since my family only traces back to 1632 VA! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 04:48
| Wales does have its pagan ceremonies and pagan rights etc, but these are all inventions of the 18th and 19th Centuries, particularly Iolo Morganwg, a noted opium addict. Bardo-Druidism and all that. |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 07:49
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That is the extent of pre Christian practices here in the USA. Except that the new age / pagan practices here were largely invented in the 1970s. Some people used the earlier British authors as guides, others did their own thing.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 09:59
Come the Middle Ages even Welsh authors are clearly defininf themselves as being seperate and different to the people who had inhabited the islands prior to the Romans and the coming of Christianity. Thus I find arguments by some (usually nationalists and neo-pagans) that they are encating ancient rights and ceremonies with millenia of history behinf them, rather feeble since nobody can accurately of reasonably date them top before the 18th Century, and that the practices currently undertaken are themselves inventions or 'adaptations' of the 18th Century. This is of course not to say that current aspects, rituals and prctices of folklore across the UK dont have their seeds in some ancient rites, but rather that time has 'evolved' these practices into something utterly different and disinct from their origins so as to be, in part, unrecognisable. They're not quite the same things. |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 12:52
I agree completely. U.S. pagan groups also claim a continuity of pagan practice by a small group of reclusive people.
As you mentioned, there has been no continuance practice by hidden groups. Modern day pagan religions range from complete fabrications to relatively accurate recreations. I would place Celtic groups in the "complete fabrication" category due to elapsed time and lack of historic material.
U.S. Nordic pagan groups seem to be relatively accurate recreations as there is far more historic material available for study (Scandanavia was pagan until the 1200s) and some of the Nordic pagan activists are dedicated amateur scholars.
I agree. The Cornish chicken offerings are an example of this. Over the years, I have read about pre christian based folk practices in rural Italy, Switzerland and the Carpanthian mountains. The despriptions are pretty interesting.
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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 04:54
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There is of course nothing wrong with all these recreations and fabrications. Live and let live. Its just massively pretentious to be lectured by some members of these groups who have bought in to their own propogandan and are thus talking largely out of their arse.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 14:32
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I seem to do that more times than I would like to believe!
But it just seems to pour from my typing fingers sometimes! Especially after an afternoon in a pub! 
You see, I oft go to the pub about 1500 hours or so, CST! Thus by 1800 hours or later, I usually have a full load within me! You might even notice that my spelling and typing skills, while not great at any time of day, seem to revert to "pig-Latin" sometimes! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 15:31
I agree, no harm done. My interest in the pagan revial is only from the sociological view. I do wish, however, that those pagan seekers wishing to re connect with their religous roots would give Christianity a chance. Christianity is their true religous heritage, not the fabricated psuedo Celtic beliefs.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 15:45
Fabrications are one thing, but for you to suggest that Christianity is "their true religious heritage" is going a little too far! One might even suggest that you have to consider just what form of Christianity was "their heritage?" Was it a form of Arianism?, or Catharism?, or "Baptist?", or ?, etc.? We cannot assume, since most all of our past has been written or quoted from Roman Catholic sources, that these people ever regarded "paganism" at all, rather any source of worship that did not conform to Catholicism was "pagan", or worse! We are, as a famous writer once wrote, "Looking thru a glass darkly!" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 06:42
Not at all. We are talking about a potential neo pagan in the year 2010. For these individuals (neo pagan propaganda to the contrary), Christianity has been their religous heritage for between 1700 and 1500 years.
That does not change that the religous heritage of potential neo pagans is Christianity and not fabricated psuedo celtic religions. For a neo pagan in New York, it might be catholicism. For a neo pagan in Kentucky, evangelical protestantism.
Very true. But then there are evangelical protestants who say the same thing about catholicism today.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 12:27
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Perhaps I should have couched my words in a different manner? It might well have been easier to have stated that to many of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, a pagan, was considered less worrisome than a heritic?
Some people might even believe or surmise that the very word "pagan", meant their speech or reading skills, etc.? To quote a phrase; "And the 'WORD' was GOD!", etc.! The "word" it seems was for a long time Latin! It seems some evidence tends to show that Greek reading and writing might well have only become important, late in the Middle Ages, etc.?, or even "very late?" As you well know, we have been constantly told that the "Church" made or created ways to secure the "pagans" and even their religious rituals, and holidays into the "Greater Church", for what was perhaps considered as a method to absorb these groups into the "Greater Body of God", etc.? DW, wrote; "That does not change that the religous heritage of potential neo pagans is Christianity and not fabricated psuedo celtic religions. For a neo pagan in New York, it might be catholicism. For a neo pagan in Kentucky, evangelical protestantism." I would have to agree with the above statement however! However to just what groups would assign the term, "Neo Christian?" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 17:19
------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 18:30
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I believe the latter are the Wends reffered to..............off the top of my head at least.
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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 04:54
Very secularized people who self identify as nominal christians only as a cultural convenience.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 20:24
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"Very secularized people who self identify as nominal christians only as a cultural convenience."
Oh? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 11:30
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Cryptic, wrote, in answer to my query concerning just what constitutes a "neo-Christian";
"Very secularized people who self identify as nominal christians only as a cultural convenience." So, I could guess that the Spanish "converso's"?, or how ever it is spelled, which tends to describe those Jews (and Moslems) in Spain who became "Christian" to avoid death or banishment, but who kept their real faith hidden from outside view! Of course versions of this also existed at other places! But, Cryptic, I sort of feel that your response was some what "cryptic?" Was it? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 14:13
Yikes, it was pretty cryptic
 . I misued the word "neo" . Neo of course means "new". I guess a neo Christian would be a recent convert to Christianity and not a fallen away or very nominal Christian. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 14:30
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Thanks, I had some idea that one of us had missed the train!
So, let us all continue! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 15:45
Conversos and Moriscos To what level of conversion and them keeping thier own faith hidden (crypto-jews andcrypto-muslims) is highly debateable. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 14:09
Indeed Eaglecap, it might well have been the "Slavs" or "Sorbs", etc., that faced the brunt of the Teutonic Order, and the other "Orders", in that area of the world. But, I object to the continued use of the word "Pagan" to describe these people! In my history, these people were nothing more or less, than fellow believers in the religion that has variously been called "Arianism" or even "Catharism!" Thus both sides of the Roman Catholic, or Roman Orthodox Church opposed them! What really disturbes me, as it oft happens, is the lack of explanation certain history writers have to connect the various names so the reader might well recognize that these people also are known by other names. Thus you might read about the "Wends" and not know it since the writer chooses, for some reason or another, to ignore the other names these people are known to hisitory, by other historians, who mostly also ignore the other names! Question to the list! Can you name the other names that might also describe the "Wends?", Note there are at least two more! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: unclefred
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 18:07
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The Wends were pagan, worshiping Bogu and Zernabog. Other aspects of the supernatural emerged such as Lada goddess of love and pleasure, Kupola god of the fruits of the earth, Koleda god of festivals and a name still used for Christmas in Poland, Dazhbog the day god, Stribog the wind god, fairies and other spirit-beings inhabiting the woods, water and air. Alfons Frencl, a well known Sorb writer, has also drawn attention to the famous Lusatian Waterman and to the Black Miller and Magician Krabat. "Christianisation of Lusatia from 1032 to 1157 C.E. as a consequence of germanic colonisation resulted in deep ill-feelings towards the Germans for introducing Christianity by means of fire and the sword and by then imposing intolerable burdens of taxation on the conquered Slavs."- From 'The Smallest Nation'' Gerald Stone. |