Print Page | Close Window

Steppe Empires and their relation with Ch

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13449
Printed Date: 16-Apr-2024 at 07:56
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Steppe Empires and their relation with Ch
Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Subject: Steppe Empires and their relation with Ch
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 01:25
In a 1981 edition of the Journal of Asian Studies, Barfield made the argument that most steppe empires thrived on the relation with China, which "funded" the nomads with trade and gave the nomads a political agenda to keep themselves united:
  • "The imperial overnment (of the Xiong Nu) was at its most powerful and highly centralized when it conducted foreign affairs and organized military campaigns. It was least powerful and most decentralized at the local level where it ceded political power to the indigenous tribal leaders who were responsible for handling most domestic problems."
Of course, the most convenient "military campaign" would be south on the Chinese border. He also argued:
  • "The imperial level of government was financed by drawing on resources from outside the steppe, not by taxing the nomadic animal breeders from within the empire."
i.e. Drawing resources through trade and raiding. Generalizing the argument, he wrote:
  • "Nomadic conquerors who created empires along the lines of the Xiong nu and used them to exploit China produced powerful states that survived their founders. Those nomadic conquerors who failed to see that a nomadic state required the support of resources from outside the steppe had their empires collapsed or suffer a power vacuum at their deaths."
So essentially, the importance of China to the steppes empires, as argued, was that it provided the nomads with resources. For this reason, Barfield argued that nomads did not perfer to entirely conquer China, but maintain an aggressive relation in order to exact the resources. A long, drawn-out attempt of conquest would be too costly, and on the other extreme, an isolationist policy would not generate the economic activity to "fund" the steppe empire.

Since no nomadic power completely conquered China until the Mongols, this observation appears to hold true for at least 1000 years of history before the 13th century.

The centralized power of the nomadic state was derived from achieving the goals described above. An example, provided in the article is that:

  • The notable successes founded along Xiong nu lines were those of the Turks and Uighurs who dominated the steppe from the middle of the sixth century... Both successfully forced China to fund a complex state by extorting subsidies and controlling a vast quantity of silk.

    In 840, the Kirghiz successfully destroyed the Uighur state and occupied its heartland, but they proved incapable of recreating the complex relationship that the Uighurs had established with Tang China, which funded the Uighur state. AS a result, no Kirghiz state ever came into existence...nor attain any power over the rest of the steppes.



Replies:
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 09:50
No doubt the steppe imperialist powers had beneficial and necessary trade with her neighbors, especially China. Commerce was one of the methods nomad societies could hold sway over her own tribes. However, it is not the only way. Grazing grounds, tribal affinity, moments of opportunistic triumph, plus military defensive and offensive unity were also key reasons for steppe empires to form cohesive organizations. Part of conquering a neighbor involved partition of booty. Whether this was from a Khan's reserves or from the benfits of war still points to the same conclusive direction. That is to keep the tribes content and the rulers capable of providing necessary goods.
 
The case for Mongol breach into China does not prove the need for 'ripe pluckings' by holding a state like China at bay. The Mongols succeeded in the invasion and dominance over China due to a vision of world domination and China was at her back door.


-------------


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 15:50
completely agree with this view. many Steppe empires will also have realized this and looked how to get rid of thsi dependence or symbiotic relationship, so they attempted to conquer (at least partially) China, but the obvious failure of those conquests was the loss of Nomad tradition above all, including corruption through civilization, the loss of small but strong and disciplined nomad horse armies as opposed to huge Chinese peasant infantry militias. as a result, those sinified nomad empires were unable to retain control of the steppe and were unable to protect themselves from new emerging powers from the steppe.

-------------


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 18:10

As is pointed out, China was th emost important of these settled peoples to the nomad states.  The tribute system served as an easy way to extract resources without costly and possibly societally destabalizing occupations.  Nonetheless we should not forget the other civilizations that also had an apreciable impact who also had a steppe border.

Though here is a good question, is the primary east-west migration movement based on more power in the east due to chinese contacts, or an actual quality in the steppe? I remeber hearing that the steppe gets nicer as grazing an dliving lands the more west you go.


-------------
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 20:21

Ive also heard about western steppes being more fertile.It doenst explain why the eastern steppe armies seemed to have higher populations than the western ones. 

not sure how accurate these figures are.
1million mongols,100,000 warriors.
20,000 hun invaded carpathians (200,000 huns )
20,000 seljuks defeated Ghaznavids and invaded middle east
 
Perhaps trade for food and metal with chinese made them more powerful.
 
Or perhaps they were just Tougher soldiers from a harsher climate
 


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 22:21
Though here is a good question, is the primary east-west migration movement based on more power in the east due to chinese contacts, or an actual quality in the steppe? I remeber hearing that the steppe gets nicer as grazing an dliving lands the more west you go.


Definately more due to more power and competition in the east. Most of the migrations coincided with poltiical turmoil, and since you can't move east into the Pacific ocean, you can only move west. The other alternative was to move north, which was what some tribes (like the Xiong Nu) did when they were attacked by the Chinese, but the west was far better in land than the north (so that's where the geography might also come in).


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 01:33
Aside from military campaigns, is there any instance where a people migrated west to east along the steppe?

-------------
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: cliveersknell
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 02:30
2 nomadic peoples truly united China and defined her present day borders with her capitol in Beijing
1. Mongols- built Beijing ; brought Xinjiang, Tibet, Heilongjiang, Yunnan into the empire
2. Manchus - Were a legacy of the Mongols, and ruled China with it's present boundaries with the addition of Mongolia and Buryat Mongolia.
r's
Clive


Posted By: Jonon
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 02:24
Manchus never reached to Buryat Mongol. Buryat Mongol came under Russia at that time.


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 06:04
Originally posted by Tobodai

Aside from military campaigns, is there any instance where a people migrated west to east along the steppe?

    
When they were deafeated, there were cases that they moved to the east, for examle, Donghu migration to the east after defeated by Huns. Someone also mentioned some Uyghur migration to the east to become part of Qitans. I have no doubt there were many other these type of cases.






-------------
Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 06:06
Originally posted by cliveersknell

2 nomadic peoples truly united China and defined her present day borders with her capitol in Beijing
1. Mongols- built Beijing ; brought Xinjiang, Tibet, Heilongjiang, Yunnan into the empire
2. Manchus - Were a legacy of the Mongols, and ruled China with it's present boundaries with the addition of Mongolia and Buryat Mongolia.
r's
Clive


It was Manchu who annexed Xinjiang. Yuan, if considered to be a Chinese dynasty, didn't brought Xinjiang to her land. Chaghatai were ruling this region.


    

-------------
Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 08:30
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by Tobodai

Aside from military campaigns, is there any instance where a people migrated west to east along the steppe?

    
When they were deafeated, there were cases that they moved to the east, for examle, Donghu migration to the east after defeated by Huns. Someone also mentioned some Uyghur migration to the east to become part of Qitans. I have no doubt there were many other these type of cases.






Not that I acn think of..

We have a sequence of peoples emerging from the forests of Northern Manchuria and fanning out onto the Liao-Xia steppe and the Mongolian plateau and we have others coming out of the Russian forests onto the Volga steppe.  There are also people moving North from Tibet.

There is a European perception of Barbarians from the East because of incursions from the Volga and Pontic steppes.  The quivelant Chinese perception is of the Barbarians sweeping down from the North.


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 09:17
What about the migration of the Torgut from the Volga to Xinjiang in 1771(?)


Posted By: Toluy
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 12:59
Originally posted by cliveersknell

2 nomadic peoples truly united China and defined her present day borders with her capitol in Beijing
1. Mongols- built Beijing ; brought Xinjiang, Tibet, Heilongjiang, Yunnan into the empire
2. Manchus - Were a legacy of the Mongols, and ruled China with it's present boundaries with the addition of Mongolia and Buryat Mongolia.
r's
Clive
 
The forbidden city of Beijing was built by Zhudi, the second emperor of Ming dynasty. What the Mongols built is Yuan Dadu(the capital of Yuan), which is near with forbidden city, but they are two different cities in ancient and both them lies in Beijing nowadays. As far as I know, the earlier city which lies in Beijing is Nan Jing of Liao dynasty(founded by Khitan/Qidan). Nan Jing means the southern captial, for this city is the southest capital of Liao dynasty, whcih had five capitals in its heyday. So I think Nan Jing of Liao dynasty is the earliest capital lied in Beijing. Also as Barbar said Xiangjiang was annexed by Manchus, and I think so is Tibet, for it is not dominated by Yuan emperor directly but a vassa of Yuan dynasty.
Furthermore, Manchus are not a legacy of Mongols but N鼁hens/Nuchens indeed, who were the foes of Genghiskhan Mongols. Because the Jin dynasty founded by Nuchens killed forefathers of Genghiskhan's and imposed crueling oppression on other tribes of the northen steppe including Genghiskhan's. After the defeat from Mongols, Nuchens retreated to Manchuria(present Heilongjiang) and became strong again until Ming dynasty, hundreds years later, and at last developed into Manchus.


Posted By: cliveersknell
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 00:05
Hi Tolui
Thanks for your enlightening reply about Beijing. Khubilai's palace was actually in Beihai park, and one of the white dagoba's is a living relic of the Dadu.
Regarding the Manchus, true, Nurhaci proclaimed the revival of the Jin state .
However, Hongtaiji, changed all that and proclaimed the
"Qing" dynasty, he not only included Nuzhens but also
Mongols ( Horcins, Kharachins, Khalkhas, etc.. primarily
eastern mongols), Koreans, and Hans.
Hongtaiji also married Buumbutai, or Xiaozhuang, who was a
Horcin princess, and a descendant of CK. Hongtaiji's son
and succeeding Manchu emperors carried down the seed of
CK.
After the defeat of Galdan, and the return of the Torguts
all Mongols from east to west recognized the Qing emperor
as their Khakhan.
The Manchu language itself was a derivate of the mongol
script and was completely different than the old Nuzhen
script. The Manchu peoples themselves may not be totally
Nuzhen, remember, when Ck destroyed the Jin empire, he
reinstated the Liao kingdom in Liaoning, henceforth many
Qidans resettled in their ancestral homeland. The Nuzhens
on the other hand were scattered to the 4 winds. From this
I would logically guess that the Manchu people had more
Qidan in them than Nuzhen. Henceforth this makes them even
closer to the Mongols.
r's
CLive


Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 15:45
It does not mean they were special race , they were staying at  their steps and waiting for a right time to attack, for example all their attacks to Iran failed during the Persian and Sasanian empires, but they found a right time when the country was in trouble and their organized army took the lands, and exactly after sfavies took the power no namd were able to enter to Iran.
This is the case of Huns and Roman empire, during the pick day of roman empire none of nomads would dare to enetr to roman lands.
The nomad used to say that they are like the wolves and wolves only attack to old and sick animals


Posted By: cliveersknell
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:26
The facts speak for themselves, the mongols and manchus
1. united China
2. Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
respective empires
3. Made Beijing the capitol .
4. Mandarin or putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC.
Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist.


Posted By: cliveersknell
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:28

Shinai

Let me remind you that Ck and his successors forged a war machine the likes of which were never seen before. They would have overrun any dynasty or empire, including the roman empire.
r's
Clive


Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 19:58
Originally posted by cliveersknell

The facts speak for themselves, the mongols and manchus
1. united China
2. Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
respective empires
3. Made Beijing the capitol .
4. Mandarin or putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC.
Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist.
 
Zhou,Qin,Wei,Sui,Yuan,Qing empires all united chinaWink only two are non han ethnicity.
 


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 08:43
To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    

-------------
Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Sasori
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 12:28
Originally posted by barbar

To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    
 
There is no Han Chinese concept during the Zhou and the Qin, not even until very recently. The Wei that was mentioned is actually Jin as Sima family usurped power from Wei and united the 3 kingdoms under Western Jin. They are what you may call the Han Chinese. The Sui are part Han part Xianbei(from the mother side) if you can call it that. In time, all Xianbei have been Sinicized or mixed with other minority groups(which later may become the Mongols) or disappear in history like the XiongNu.
 
Here is translation of Xiao Wendi from Northern Wei period in 490 AD from CHF forum by General Zhaoyun:
Translation:

The wearing of "hu" clothings was banned for all Xianbei. The speaking of Xianbei language was banned in the imperial court. It was encouraged to change the surname of the Xianbei to that of han. Mix marriage between han and Xianbei was encouraged. In 495 AD, it was decree that Xianbei and other northern languages were not to be spoken in the court, anyone who violate it would not be able to stay in court.. "to eliminate northern language, make Han language official. All above 30 years old are pardoned . For those below 30 years old, anyone who met the officials must speak the han langauge, if violated will be sacked form their position. Xiao Wendi also encouraged the wearing of the han clothing.

Translation:

Besides the language, Xiao Wendi also ordered the change of Xianbei surname to that of Han. The 'Tuoba" (a Xianbei surname), according to "the book of Wei", was a descendent from the Yellow Emperor. The Tuoba surname was changed to that of Yuan, in order to make their rule and staying in China deemed appropriate. All the aristocracy surnames had to be changed. This is to ensure the Xianbei's political position and the integration with the han family. In addition, mix marriage is encouraged between han and xianbei. With the han's blood being part of them, this would support Northern Wei's regime.
 
 
The Qing(Manchu) didn't unite China as they stormed the capital after being let in by a traitor during the Ming's weakest period. Liu Bang put more effort in founding the Han dynasty but he's not credited as uniting China. As of now, many Manchus have also been Sinicized and counted as Han Chinese although many others are counted as ethnic Manchu.
 
Han Chinese concept is like being an American concept multiply 10x older, be careful when using them.


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 11:58

I know the sinization process for some of these nomadic groups. Sinization itself shows the fact that they were originally not part of Sino group or culture. Moreover not all of the decendants of these groups sinizied, there are still groups with distinct culture and ethnicities from these groups who are not Han ethnicity.

Han Chinese concept is nothing like American concept no matter how many times you multiply. One is ethnic term, while the other is statehood. So you have Han Chinese, Hui Chinese etc, just as African American, Hispanic American etc.



-------------
Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: MING-LOYALIST
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 20:25
China is more then just Han ethnicity.
 
Also only Yuan and Qing were non-han the others were Han. The Wei is the Jin dynasty of Sima Yan not the Northern Wei which never united anything.


Posted By: jjack
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 14:08

 


"Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist."
---------------------

This kind of statement is base on nothing but assumption. How do you know that is the case? And how do you prove it?

 

"Mandarin or Putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC."
---------------------

'Mandarin', for whatever reason the westerners nowadays call this the official language of china as 'Mandarin', indeed, it has not much to do with the Manchu people. "Mandarin" is a local dialect of beijingers, where the majority of Beijing people of Ming period were coming from the south, the surrounding area of Beijing and mingle with the local people.

 

"The Mongols and Manchu’s united China”
---------------------

The Mongols conquer China eventually, is not for the purpose of united China, but for their land and material ambition, for a selfish purpose only, same as for the Manchu people take over China.


'Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
Respective empires'
---------------------

Foe the border issue, Mongols or Manchus, take the land is their land, also for their own beneficiaries only. Border is their border, their 'China's border, since China is their China.

In history, every dynasty changes in China, new border of China, size of the land the the new dynasty is able to control or rule, it depends on the military power of the new dynasty, and the ambition of the new dynasty.

For the contemporary history, actually, this kind land, military power, border, and ambition relationship, it apples to evry country and the whole world.

Manchu-Ching once ruled outer Mongolia, and a large area of northern Heilongjiang. When in the turns of last century, Manchu-Ching collapsed, Chinese people were so week at that time. New the china was in civil war, no regime or power was able to fight against the strong Russia, so Russia was manage to make outer Mongolia independent, and took a very big chunk of northern lands of Heilongjiang.

So, new China's new borer, is define by new China's own strength, in relatively to the out side power. But it is not define or set by Mongols dynasty or Manchu dynasty.



Posted By: MING-LOYALIST
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 02:28

China's border has a lot to do with Qing dynasty, as for mongol or manchu uniting china, it may not have been their purpose initially but that was the result.



Posted By: Hulegu Han
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 16:36
Originally posted by MING-LOYALIST

China's border has a lot to do with Qing dynasty, as for mongol or manchu uniting china, it may not have been their purpose initially but that was the result.

Yes, I agree with you on point that uniting the China wasn't there purpose initially. Even their conquest of China strenghtened China so that later Chinese own dynasties  had strong fundaments to establish their empire. 


Posted By: GR3Y077
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:09
The Toba Wei people were originally Turkic


Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 14:52
Originally posted by barbar

To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    
 
the name Han is simply a generalization of all Chinese in Han dynasty time, since Zhou and Qin are both before Han, none of them should be considered as "barbarians". there is no specific origin of han Chinese, even if there is, you can't find any pure Han chinese.
 
I notice something interesting in Shi Ji, in the chapter on Liu Bang, the founder of Han Dynasty, there is a short description of his appearance that mentioned he have huge nose and that is quiet uncommon for Chinese at the time. there is a good chance he might belong to a  ethnic group ouside Chin empire.


-------------




Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 23:55
FONT=ArialYou're quite correct. The Mongols travelled in groups of up to 100,000 and met at prearranged points, where required, to prosecute battle. In many cases, Kings of European states surrendered to the Mongols before an arrow was formed.



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com