Persian Hero, Unknown Martyr
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Post-Classical Middle East
Forum Discription: SW Asia, the Middle East and Islamic civilizations from 600s - 1900 AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11074
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 21:20
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Topic: Persian Hero, Unknown Martyr
Posted By: Aydin
Subject: Persian Hero, Unknown Martyr
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:31
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Persian Hero, Unknown Martyr If you read one thing this year, let it be this! When Babak was finally betrayed by one of his own men after 22 years of resisting Arab rule, they tied him up, put him on a horse and paraded to the Khalife. With our citizens watching and the Arab army surrounding the Khalife, the Khalife told him to convert to Islam or die. Babak spat in his face, and the Khalife order to have the hero of the Persians be cut piece by piece in front of his people to made an example of. they cut off his feet, then his hands. With tears dripping down Babaks eyes he forced himself not to scream under the unbearable pain. Until he finally could not hold it no more and screamed at Afshin (the Iranian traitor) and said "why did you betray Iran". Even under the most unbearable pain he was mourning the betrayal of Iran before himself. his feet, his legs from knee down and hands were getting cut off at this point. and what did Babak do? when his left hand was cut, he dipped his right hand into the blood of his left and smothered it all over his face. The Khalife asked why do u do this? Babak replied slowly as he was nauseated: "My face is turning pale, and i dont want noone to get the impression that im scared" And they proceeded to cut off every limb and bone in his body... With no arms and no legs, right before they were getting ready to cut off his head, with his last gasp of breth he looked to the crowd and sayd, "Zahee asaani" or in modern Persian "che ghadr asoon bood marg". And he rolled over with his last ounce of strength so the people wouldnt see his defeated face. His remains were publicly hung and put on display to rot in front of the eyes of his fellow Iranians. His head was picked up by the Khalife and he looked at the people and said "this is the price you pay when you betray Islam". His head was later put on a spear and put in the town squares of different cities for all Iranians to see. In all his 22 years, Babak and his army (the red shirts) killed over half a million Arab Muslims and was never once defeated. The cause of his downfall was the famous Persian tradition of the traitors. |
Replies:
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 12:34
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Had to end sometime. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 13:16
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similar to Zekre Hossein ebne Mansor Halaj. He had same destiny.  Anoshe Baad Ravane Babake Khoramdin------------- |
Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2006 at 22:34
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why isnt this thread gettin more attention? its statues of people like this we need more of on the streets of tehran, not statues of palestinians throwing rocks while trampling the star of david. ------------- "If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War |
Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 09:00
Well, I guess Iran is STILL an Islamic country and there is no place for a person who killed over half a million muslims, in an Islamic country. That's why you see the statue of a defender of Islam rather than a person who killed muslims. ------------- 
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Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 09:26
No, dear friend Gharanay what he means is we need more statues of iranian heros more necessary than foreign statues. ------------- |
Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 10:03
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Oh, in that case then I would like to say that it was my mistake and am sorry as I got it in other way. And yes you are rigth it's better to have status of your own people rather than foriegners until they are not of people who were agianst what you are not... -------------
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Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 11:35
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@Garanai: Dear man from Aria, I think He's your people too
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Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 12:48
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Dear, I don't have anything with if he is from us or anyone else, all I am concern with is that he was against Islam and Islam is the religion in which I believe (from birth upto now and till dead). So I really don't care if he was from Aryana or some other place even if he was my own blood I would had felt proud killing him. -------------
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Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 14:29
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Dear Gharanai, I respect to your opinion, well all are not same, for you religion is most important thing, for me to be Iranian(Iranic) is most important & Really I don't care what's religion, You know moslem as brothers, I know Afghani, Tajic, Kurd,... as brothers & to be chirsitian jew Moslim or Kafer is not mistake for me. I think Shirin Ebadi said better: I am an Iranian. A descendant of Cyrus The Great. The very emperor who proclaimed at the pinnacle of power 2500 years ago that "... he would not reign over the people if they did not wish it." And [he] promised not to force any person to change his religion and faith and guaranteed freedom for all. The Charter of Cyrus The Great is one of the most important documents that should be studied in the history of human rights. ------------- |
Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 16:54
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Yes, Mansour Halaj, Hasan Sabbah, and Maziyar. They were like Babak too. Very important persons in the history of your country. I think if they were not fighting, the Iranians would have spoken Arabic now. ------------- |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 23:36
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Can you tell me something more about Mansour Halaj? I didn't remember anything about him being against Islam or Arabic. All I know is he was Sufist, and were killed due to his saying "Enel heq-I'm the truth". Sufists were the real lovers of Allah to my best knowledge. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we are talking about two different persons. Back to this unknown matyre, I just can say WOW. He could be still concious, when his arms and legs were choped off. Are there any primary sources as to what he said? I'm asking this because we have many Chinese matyres during the anti-Japanese, and anti-Gomindang battles, who said some very moving slogans before their death, and you never know who had seen this and wrote it down.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Aydin
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 00:41
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forget about Islam...its a virus! ------------- |
Posted By: cyrus
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 19:09
Yes you are right. There was a program
on Channel 4 (UK) last year with the title name of : The root of all
Evil. The guy who created the program is a very respectful Darwinist
and a great scientist. I would suggest to any Iranian who want to challenge religion to go and use scientific and logic rather than historical event, because this will create obscurity and misunderstanding. I do not want to say I know everything about science but those that I know are more than enough to prove religion is nothing but an evil created by man kind. Iran will be saved only and only through education. No WAR can change Iran. I am sure some realigns people also will think twice after watching this movie but this movie is not enough on its own you need to go and read more about evolution, cloning, space and quantum physics. There is one main reason why religion is Evil: we damage our children's brain from beginning by injecting some fictional things and nonsense very fast they learn all those and their brain get shaped around that bobble. Now if we stop this and let our kids to choose their own way, more that 99% of them will laugh at religion. Iranian people were changed with force, I mean not normal force, brutal force. They practiced this and thought their children how to survive by pretending they are Muslim. This is the case even right now. Brutal force will be applied to those who choose other than Islam. Look at Bahaee Faith. Any way I talked a lot. But education is the key to free Iran. Lets hope for that time.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 09:49
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Personally I'm from a society where the Muslims are encouraged to be Atheist. We have families around who are pretty religious and also pretty Atheist. By comparison of the Children from these different families, we can see obvious differences: always the religious families are more in hamony and children are more decent, ie as families, they are more successful. Family is the basis for the society. Now the people are starting to have a feeling that the most important thing to us is our religion-Islam. Maybe you forget it for somewhile, but I'm sure you will refind it some time, as it's deeply rooted in your culture. BTW, I started to be aware the Iranians feelings towards Islam as they were against this maybe corrupted political regimy which is holding back the development or being the very reason for their being expelled from their mother land. My advice is don't blame something which is happened to be a tool for someone.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: yazzmode621
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 11:03
| I pray that one day the Iranian people wake up and realize all of this. Islam was shoved down our throats. Our ancestors were forced to convert. Majority of Iranians are muslim today because our ancestors were forced to convert or die. I pray that one day Iranians wake up and realize that Islam is nothing but a tool used to brainwash and control the masses. |
Posted By: yazzmode621
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 11:05
And I would have no problem killing a muslim who would dare try to harm a defender of Iran. |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 12:43
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Whats all this talk about killing people for religion or ancient grudges? C'mon guys you are all smarter than this. Islam has been used as a tool by many horrible regimes, the Ayotollahs, the Taliban, they are all the same breed of ignorance. I have a good friends from Iran (muslim, bahai, and jewish), Kurdistan (muslim), Afghanistan(muslim), Pakistan(muslim), even Bulgaria(orthodox christian). It doesnt matter to me if they are Bahai, Christian, or Muslim, Jews, whatever, its all about enjoying life and getting to meet people from different walks of life. The more you interact with people from different faiths and cultures, the more richer you become. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 12:53
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Informal warning for this remark, Aydin. ------------- |
Posted By: cyrus
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 23:07
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I also have many many friends from different countries and many of them are muslim. The real things start when I talked to them about religion. Today one of these guys from Bangladesh told me his uncle was killed because once they arrest his by mistake accusing him that he rubbed a shop. The first thing he told me was that they cut his hand and then killed him with stick. This guy who told me this was Muslim himself (at least he say I am, and he say it proudly) but he does everything that you shouldnt do in Islam. 1. Drinking 2. having sex before marriage 3. Not praying 4. Lieing and saying things about his friends. My point here is that when I told him then you are not muslim he said ofcourse I am but I am not the good one. LOL I found this in almost 95% of muslim friends. Some of them are even Gay (LOL). Please dont think we are stupid or we dont have any intraction with other religions or people. this is the exact oposite, I think if Iranian people go out from their country and start intracting with others then they will realise OH what are we doing there.  and this is to the friend who said Atheist dont have family I would like to say, I am one of them and I have a very very strong bounding between my family members. We are more united than some people with religion, etc. I respect those religious people who dont harm others or our country because of their faith but in general religion is man made and specially Islam was imposed to Iranian people and there is no deep root in millions of them. It may worth mentioning that I live 6 month in europe and 6 month in Iran so I know exactly what I am talking about here. ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 03-May-2006 at 00:02
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this belong to classical middle east forum
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 18:08
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There are other Iranian Heros who are unknown Martyrs... To name a few: (1) Peerooz Nahaavandi -- The Killer of Omar Ibn Khattab (2) Behzaad Hamadaani -- The Killer of Osman (3) Bahman Jazooyeh Raam Hormozy -- The Killer of Ali (4) Roozbahaaneh Khoraasaani -- One of the very first grouped uprisings after the invasion of Iran (5) Yagh oub Leis |
Posted By: Sherzod
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 19:00
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Come on!! I agree that the Khalifs have done some really cruel things against our brother nations (Uzbekistan has also had many heroes died), but to claim that.... forget about Islam...its a virus it's tooo much! ISLAM is one thing, the last and the only correct religion sent to us from Allah and brought by the Holy Muhammad (Sallalahu Alayhi Vasallam), and to some extent we should thank the Arabs for leading us to the right way! and some stupid KHALIFS, is another thing, against whom I also have many things to say. but guys, let's not forget that religion is definately more important and personal and lets be carefull next time with such statements! ------------- "Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 21:08
| Have you ever read the Quran that you are making these statements? |
Posted By: Sherzod
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 21:18
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You have any doubts? ------------- "Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:51
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Well, you say that "ISLAM is one thing, the last and the only correct religion sent to us from Allah and brought by the Holy Muhammad (Sallalahu Alayhi Vasallam), and to some extent we should thank the Arabs for leading us to the right way!" I'm just curious which verses in the Quran you are referring to, b/c I am aware of many verses that stand for the exact opposite of your statement above. I'm also curious to know how Arabs have lead "us" in the right way, b/c after their invasion of foreign land, they did nothing but kill, enslave, and take other's properties. So if you could clear up your statements, I would really appreciate it. |
Posted By: Sherzod
Date Posted: 12-May-2006 at 23:26
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Islam is the last and since then the only religion Allah allowed! Sent to Prophet Muhammad (Sallalahu Alayhi Vasallam)
Accordingly, Arabs have brought the only allowed and correct religion by Allah - the Islam to our lands. though, I agree that some Khaliphas have missused their advantagous positions and supremacy in their own needs! what is wrong? ------------- "Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405) |
Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 00:02
------------- "I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon" 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 04:04
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From history books and other sources that I have read / heard. With regard to Peerooz and Yaghoub Leis, an internet source is as follows: http://www.iran-heritage.org/interestgroups/islamicera.htm - http://www.iran-heritage.org/interestgroups/islamicera.htm |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 10:55
How do you define a hero? Assasinators?
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 14:33
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I define a hero as someone who fights to save his country. I define an assassinator as someone who invades another's country, enslaves the people, rapes the women, forces people to change their religion, and kill anyone who does not agree with them. How do you define an assassinator? |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 20:24
Who is Bahman Joazooyeh Raam Hormozy? Can you explain how he killed Ali, and by Ali I'm assuming you mean Hazrat Ali.
------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 21:03
yes, Bahman Jazooye Ramhormozi was the real name of Ebn Moljem. He was one of the persian slaves who brought to Arabian peninsula and sold there. The khavarej were mainly persian slaves. ------------- |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 21:07
No, heroes. They retailated upon the corrupt Califs for what they done to Iranian people. ------------- |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 21:13
could you bring a logically prove for that? for sure not.
Wrong is, that this religion has brought us nothing, it took us backeward until modern times. We had a monotheism religion and we wasn't kaffir, we had a great civilization and islam has destroyed it. ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 13-May-2006 at 22:29
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Reminder to all members.
please stick to the topic which is about "Persian Hero, Unknown Maryr". and that does not include Islam and persia which many topic were opened and closed for it. that will only lead to flam wars and such. its simple One side say that Islam was forced upon Iranians by Arabs. Other side say that Islam was Chosen by many iranians. no need to get into these stuff here. for more info refer to the Persian and Islam thread in this forum. any member Can make new Threads on a condition that it has info that is not mentioned in the previouse threads. and another important condition that the discussion must be civil, not leading to flam war. and to do so, sources to be used should NOT be from nationalistic sites or propaganda sites. thanks.
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Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 26-May-2006 at 01:22
exerpt of what a friend wrote to me and his buddies
"Like wise Abdur Rahman bin Muljam al Sarimi is the name the Arabs gave to the Iranian man, Bahman Jazooyeh Ramhormozi. If you look at the shortened nicknamed they gave him, you'd know why. For short, the Arabs called him Ibn Muljam. "Ibn" means son of, "Muljam" comes from the verb Molajam (afsar gir), meaning one who rides and trains the swift horses of high officials for battle. Thus he was the son of a man who carried out such a profession. Turns out his father was a high ranking officer in Iran's professional army. Iran had and trained many horses that were incorporated into its professional army (Arabs did not, because horses were not as well adapted to their desert climate, though they had horses, never a cavalry like Iran). We also know some of this from historians, such as Al-Tabari. Anyway, obviously being the son of an Iranian horseriding warrior, Bahman was well versed in the art of warfare. He was also very angry with Ali who had brutally put down revolts in Pars and Kerman.The latter two failed, but Bahman succeeded in hitting Ali over the head with a poisoned spear. " ------------- Want to know more on ancient Iran? http://www.parsaworld.com - http://www.parsaworld.com or join our forums FORUM |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2006 at 02:20
| That's exactly what I have also heard from Arabic sources. I think another one is Ibn Khaldun or Al-Belazeri or Al-Vaghedi. Sorry, I am not sure which, but one of those historians... |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 28-May-2006 at 02:51
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Those crimes you speek of were comitted before Islam and still are I don't think it has any thing to do with Islam only thing it does is it's been executed in the name of"God". People do some nasty stuff in the name of God. And not only muslims.
spanish inquisition, Witch burning, etc...
these crimes are and have been comitted by believers and non-believer since the beginning of man. i think it's in our blood. The excuse could be religious that's the best excuse i think to start a war or kill somone In the name of God
such a pitty  ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 16:40
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Fighting to liberate your country and kill the invaders is not committing crimes. Those who conquer and force their will on a nation are the ones that commit crimes.
And since when was Ali in Iran before Islam? These occurred after Islam came into being.
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Posted By: kingofmazanderan
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 15:44
| The Baha'i faith is the last Religion allowed by Allah or God on this earth. Although most Religious Islamic people think it is either not a true religion or a branch of Islam. I disagree with both. |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 08:32
omg not again with the "forced you into Islam speech",
 anyway, about your Heroes,
don't forget Persian heroes who killed Darius III and Yazdegerd II (both killed on the "run" after shamefully lost their whole Empires in very few Battles).
you and people think like you may consider the assassins who killed Calips Umar, Uthman and Ali as Persian heroes,
well those Three are/were considered Heroes and great Caliphs by hundreds of Millions of people at present and hundreds of millions of people in the past.
even in Iran, i don't think you would dare to swear at Imam Ali raa in the Streets of Tehran.
so basically many Iranians i guess who are the majority Don't share that opinion with you ( which in my opinion is good thing
 )-------------
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Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 03:56
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Greetings all, I'm familiar with Babek, but indirectly. As a Byzantine specialist, I came across the Khurramites when after the death of Babek, a large number of them found refuge in Byzantine territory under Emperor Theophilus. The leader of these refugees, Nasir adopted the name of Theophobus and married a relative of the Emperor's. However, later he rebelled against the Emperor which was suppressed. The soldiers who took part in the rebellion were forgiven and agreed to be dispersed throughout the Empire. That means that a small proportion of Greece's population comes are Iranian!! Was Babek anti-Islamic? Weren't the Khurramites, a heretical sect of Islam? Someone please shed more light on the Khurramites please. |
Posted By: Fizzil
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:24
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The khurramites were not a heretical sect but they were zoroastrians, they were a resistance front in azerbaijan, or someplace around that area.
Babak sought to revive the sassanid empire after Abu muslim was executed/assassinated, but his rebellion was put down and he was executed.
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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 06:59
| babak was a great hero who fought against wild barbarian invaders. whatever he had done to those barbarians was nothing when they destroy a mighty and rich empire. |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 11:46
| Are u guys Iranian Muslims or non-Muslim Iranians? |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 20:36
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Alhamdulilah, I, as a person of Iranic origin, declare that I am firmly Muslim. I disassociate myself from the Murtads and those Iranic individuals who bad mouth Islam. With that said, I'd like to clear any doubt that in large portions of Iranian lands, Islam was welcomed. Those who precariously allege that Islaam was "forced" upon the Persian people should read and brush up on their history on how Islaam spread amongst the people who welcomed it. Although, the ruling elite may have not whole-heardtedly converted, many Iranic people embraced Islam, as I will prove. Firstly, let us examine Zoroastrianism during the advent of Islaam. Admitingly, It should be noted that the religion was popular with the ruling elite. In contrast, the working class along with the general population resented the enormous amount of influence the Zoroastrian priests wielded. Moreover, many adherents of other religoins, including Nestorianism, Judaism and Buddhists who utterly resented the Zoroastrian ruling elite given the unfair treatment they were receiving saw Islam as a new hope. As Caetani in his book "Annali dell Islam" noted that the hatred against the ruling elite were so bitter that caused the Arab conquest to appear as a deliverance. (ibid, pg. 910-11) Furthermore, during Khusrau II's reign the persecution of Christians living in Persian lands were enormously high given that he suffered a defeated under the Roman Emperor. This led to more persecution, resulting in many of them happily welcoming the Muslim creed. More importantly, Islam spread because of the inabilities of the rigid Zoroastrian creed itself. Many townsfolk especially the industrial class and the artists "whose occupations made them impure according to the Zoroastrian creed, because in the pursuance of their trade or occupations they defiled fire, earth, or water..." wholeheartedly accepted Islam without any compulsion or force. (Spread of Islam, pg. 208) In addition, Imam Husayn (radiallah ahnu - may Allah be pleased with him) - the grandson of the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (sall Allahu alay wa salam) married the last Sassanid emperor's daughter, Shahbanu. At that juncture, many Iranian peoples saw themselves feeling fairly patriotic, welcomed Islam, and many claim that this reason spurred some Persians to be devoted to Shi'ism. And although some will allege that many fire-temples were destroyed after the advent of Islam, I say, fire-temples were still found till the 10th century, 300 years after the coming of Islam in various parts of what is now known as Iraq, Iran and Azerbaijan. In fact, al-Shahristani even mentions fire-temples in Baghdad itself during the 12 century! (Kitab al-milal wa'-nihal) In light of these facts, it is silly to attribute that the Iranian peoles were violently converted. Moreover, one of the greatest and noble Persian rulers in History, Saman Khuda, the true father of the Tajik nation, whom Tajikistan today, firmly respects (infact they even named their currency after him - Somoni, and have monuments of him across Dushanbe) converted to Islam without any force and led one of the most popular Persian-Muslim dynasties in History - the Samanid Empire to rule large portions of what is now known as Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan. To think that Iranic peoples were forced to accept Islaam is not only fallacious it has no historical merit. What's more is that I have yet to cover the other Iranian peoples like the Baluchis and Pashtuns who accepted Islaam similarly via missionary work as well. It should be noted that my post a tip of the iceberg with this matter, and I will address and answer any further inquiries. If one would like to contend with the facts of this post, please reply to each of the above points instead of concocting a fallacious argument like "oh you follow Islam because your parents do." Speaking of Iranic heroes, here is my list.. al-Bukhari Abu Haneefah al-Koofi al-Kabuli al-Tirmidhi al-Haakim al-Nishapuri Abu Dawud al-Sijistani An-Nisai Ishaq ibn Rahwaih Imam al-Bayhaqi al-Nishapuri ar-Razi Ibn Khuzaima adh-Dhuhli al-Khorasani Imam at-Tabarani al-Isfahani may Allah have mercy on all of them. ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 02:41
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Murtad means "apostate"???
Are Iranians who keep the Zoroastarian faith considered Murtads now that most Iranians are Muslims?
From Western Scholars, I too have read about the strength of Zoroastarianism among the elite classes but of weaker adherence amongst the Proletarian.
Although I have to note that Nestorianianism's strongest base was still in Iran where most clerical appointments were. At one point, the authority of the Nestorian Catholicos was acknowledged from Cyprus to Guangzhou (CHinese coast); as far north as Siberia to as far south as Pegu (Burma) and a lot of these leaders in these churches were appointed from Iran.
The decline of the Nestorians finally came when Timurlane ravaged and destroyed most of their numbers in his campaigns in Iran.
Nestorians were notable as medical physicians to the Abbasid Caliphs.
PS. You didn't add Firdausi to ur list??
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 03:42
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I think his point was that the above made great contributions to islamic studies, while being iranian.
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Posted By: shayan
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 06:32
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thanks panj :D never knew the name of the killer of killer aka ali
And Iranians before any religion any time any day... ------------- Iran parast |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 11:44
There were still Zoroastrians in many parts fo Iran up until the 18 century I believe. The Safavids and Mirwais Khan Hotaki attacked and killed many Zoroastrians during their reign.
------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 20:27
There are still Zoroastrians in Iran. Some of whom are even on this board ------------- |
Posted By: shayan
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 12:59
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you can also convert back to zoroastrian religion :)
------------- Iran parast |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 13:54
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And the way this Budbhkt, or whatever his name is, is described is impossible.
If he had killed 500,000 people, there would be no muslims in Iran today. Half a million people would destroy a society.
ANd if they had cut off his leg, then he would be dead before he fell to the ground, of shock and loss of blood.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 17:57
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Budbkht? Are you trolling? I don't see how you can get Babak mixed with Budbkht unless you have some cognitive deficiency.
The mongols despatched millions (literally) from Iran and Iran at the time of the Sassanids had between 8-12 million inhabitants according to taxation records, so at least just as much during Babak's time. But I do agree that 500k may be a little exaggerated by his enemies to make him look worse. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 00:51
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And how long did it take Iran to recover?
500,000 for a minority would be disaterous. And the way he is described as being killed is impossible as well.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 14:48
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Not long, about 100 years, until Timur did the same, also killing millions. Some parts of the coutnry never recovered such as Tus, but again after 100 years Iran was revived. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 01:04
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Iran was never again a power. ------------- |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 10:47
Thanks but NO thanks. 'preciate the offer, but you can certainly keep it. I am pleased with Allah as my lord, Islam as my religion and Muhammad (sall Allahu alay wa salam) as my prophet. Radheetu billaahi Rabban, wa bil-'Islaami deenan, wa bi-Muhammadin (sall Allahu alay wa salam) Nabiyyan ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 11:46
Are you kidding? You shouldn't make such ignorant comments.
Yes it was, Safavids, then Afsharids, then Zandis, then even teh Qajars, all of them inflicted humiliating defeats on their enemies (Russian Empire, Ottomans, MUghals, Uzbeks etc) and resored Iran's territorial integrity after brief moments of disruption. What remains today is the core of what the Safavids built up.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 14:24
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Iran was never again a world power in the league that the Sassaniads or the Achaemenid empire. The Safavids were local regional powers, annoying to the Ottomons, and everyone else burt hardly the glory of Cyrus.
My Grand Mother family was from Isfahan and her family has a tradition that it served every Iranian King since Cyrus. So well I really do have a soft spot for Iran, as do most Pakistanis, but well facts are facts.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 16:04
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There were no world powers then (16th, 17th even 18th centuries)... only supra regional powers (except maybe spain and portugal). ------------- |
Posted By: Shapur II
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 18:11
actually, iran was the only power that could defeat the ottomans when the europeans couldnt. also, if i remember correctly, iran defeated england, russia, and portugal in battle too.... |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 21:00
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Yes, we did, but only a few times and with help another europeans. Shah Abbas and Agha mohammad khan have defeated Russians. Without Englands navy we never could defeat Portugal. ------------- |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 07:20
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I wonder what ave1 thinks about underground movement of Iranians converting out of islam, would they be considered "murtad". And, wouldn't an iranan converting out of Islam to Zoroastarianism be reverting to his/her country's original religion? ------------- Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 17:43
Care to elaborate more on this "underground movement".
If by being a confused young Persian and getting a tattoo or chain of Ahura Mazda symbol makes one a Zoroastrian then good luck to the new religion of neo-Zoroastrianism. ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 17:55
True. The Safavids were hardly in the same league as the Achaemenids or Sassanids but you're dead wrong about Iran never being a World power since those times. Iran under Nader Shah Afshar was THE major power in Asia and the Safavids, Zands and Qajars too were powers in their own right. That is why Iran was never colonized by any of the colonial powers.
 That's an unbelievably far-fetched story and sounds more like a Hendi custom, not something Iranians do
 An 'Esfahani' family that served every Iranian King since Cyrus??
Sorry i couldnt resist, ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 18:41
Its was a family tradition. Not the most reliable sources are they. And oh I did not know that you were the man who certified whether something was Iranian or not?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 18:52
Iran was a regional power. As it is today. Safavids and Nadir Shah were never powers in Euope or Africa (as Achamenids and the Sassanids were) or anywhere outside the middle east and C Asia.
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Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 22:53
Just a 'regional power'? No.
Iran's power under Nader Shah extended over 3 different regions, West Asia, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent, and was a threat to Russia.
You say that Nader Shah wasnt a power outside of the Middle East or Central Asia yet Nader Shah's power also extended into the Caucasus and into the subcontinent. You are no doubt aware that Nader Shah's army swatted the people of modern-day Punjab-Pakistan like they were flies before making short work of the main and overwhelmingly larger imperial Mughal army on the outskirts of Delhi. So his power obviously was not limited to just the M.E or C.A ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 06:17
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Tell me what operations the Iranian army carried out in the Americas and I'll accept it was a world power.
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Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 06:29
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Ah, Nader Shah, the last great asian conqueror. They should make a film of him. Nader Shah's Persian empire:  http://iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/maps08/index.htm - http://iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/maps08/index.htm |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 10:59
Its irrelevant to me what your opinion about Iran being a World power is. You claimed that Iran was only a 'regional power' and had no power outside of the Middle East or Central Asia under Nader Shah, i rebuked that. The best example being Nader Shah's humiliation of the Mughals and seizure of Delhi. ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 07:16
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It is also irrelevant to me what you think. In Nadir Shah's time, the powers were France and the Kingdom of Great Britain and Spain. Iran was a major regional power, the dominant one in its area true, but not a world power. And facts do not change because some guy with "Iran Zameen" written as his banner thinks otherwise. ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:15
You didn't rebuke it, in fact everything you argued against Sparten with only proved his point; Iran under Nader Shah was a regional power that could only assert its influence in neighbouring regions like India, the Middle East and Central Asia. They weren't in the New World, not in Africa or east Asia, and not in Europe. The world powers of Nader Shah's time made their influence felt in all these regions. That's not to say Nader Shah wasn't a great leader or that Iran wasn't influential, and I'd say there is no need to inflate it; it was impressive enough as it was. ------------- |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 17:42
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The Middle East, Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Indian subcontinent are all different 'regions'.
But i dont know, maybe in Pakistan they teach you that Daghestan and Delhi are apart of the same "region". LOL
Reginmund - If defining World powers depends upon what Westerners consider to be the benchmark then sure, Iran has not been a naval power at any time in the past 2000 years or so, and so has not been a 'World power' like the Spanish, English etc. But on land, definitely Nader Shah's Iran was one of the major World powers of the time. Trying to condense his military achievements into what you consider to be a "region" is just ignorance about the lands within this non-existent "region" you're trying to place him. ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:37
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Actually they do teach us that, its called "Asia". Though of course Dagestan is near the boundries of Europe.
You would do well to decipher what a world power means, the ability to project power over different continents. The timeline you are talking about, the British fought wars in Europe, N and S American, India and SE Asia. ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 20:21
I think we simply misunderstand each other because we see different meanings in the terms "world power" and "regional power". When I say world power, I mean a power that influences "all" the world politically, when I say regional power, I mean a power that influences the neighbouring regions politically. You however, seem to operate with the terms as if being a world power is qualitatively superior to being a regional power, so that Iran as a regional power becomes inferior to f.ex. Britain because it was a world power. This is not how I see it, in fact I would say that a world power is not necessarily more powerful than a regional power, being a world power just means that the political influence is mainly felt in dispersed areas all over the world, as opposed to locally. One could perhaps argue that Iran was a greater regional power than f.ex. Britain, while Britain was the greater world power. These terms must be treated as analytical concepts and nothing more, they're not prizes we stick on nations to increase their prestige. ------------- |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 23:23
Yeah i suspected there was something flawed in your education system. Dagestan IS in Europe, not Asia.
And Asia is not a "region". It is a continent, which has many different regions within it.
And Nader Shah fought wars in............. Im repeating myself and this is going in circles. See my earlier posts. ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Conservative
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 23:24
True. I agree with what you said. ------------- ایران زمین |
Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2008 at 03:47
| Who was more dominant power, Britain in european region or Iran in their region during the period 1730-1750? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2008 at 05:50
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Iran no doubt, Britain would not become the dominant power until 1763 at the earliest and 1815 at the latest.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2008 at 05:55
**sigh**. Dagestan is in the Caucases, which is one of the recognized borders of Europe and Asia (the others are the Urals and the Black Sea). Being in the Caucases, Dagestan can be placed in either, depending on where exactly the border is defined.
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Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 09:36
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When I mean "underground" I'm talking about secret converts to Christianity and Zoroastarianism that occur in Iran.
------------- Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign |
Posted By: RonPrice
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 03:33
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I came across this thread, somewhat serendipitously this afternoon. Given the topic of martyrs, Iran and both modernity and ancient culture in Persia, I thought the following paragraphs might interest some readers. These following paragraphs place some of the modern Iranian problems in what I hope is a helpful perspective for readers here.-Ron Price, Tasmania.
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Locked in the grip of an antiquated Qajar autocracy restrained only by its incompetence, Persia drifted ever deeper into stagnation. Venal politicians competed with one another for a share of the diminishing wealth of a country driven to the verge of bankruptcy. Worse still, a population that had once produced some of the greatest minds in the history of civilization--Cyrus, Darius, Rumi, Hafiz, Avicenna, Rhazes and countless others--had become the prey of a clerical caste, as ignorant as it was corrupt, whose petty privileges could be maintained only by arousing in the helpless masses an unreasoning fear of anything progressive.
Little wonder then that, taking advantage of the chaos that followed in the wake of the first world war, an ambitious army officer was able to seize power and establish a personal dictatorship. To him--as to his son after him-- deliverance from Persia's ills was assumed to lie in a systematic programme of "Westernization". Schools, public works, a trained bureaucracy and a well- equipped military served the needs of the new national government. Foreign investment was encouraged as a means of developing the country's impressive national resources. Women were freed from the worst of the restrictions that had prevented their development and were given opportunities for education and useful careers. Although the Majlis remained little more than a facade, hope rose that, in time, it might emerge as a genuine institution of democratic government. What emerged, instead, through the single-minded exploitation of Iran's petroleum resources, was wealth on an almost unimaginable scale. In the absence of anything resembling a system of social justice, the chief effect was to vastly enrich a privileged and self-serving minority, while leaving the mass of the population little better off than they had been before. Treasured cultural symbols and the heroic episodes of a glorious past were resurrected merely to decorate the monumental vulgarity of a society whose moral foundations were built on the shifting sands of ambition and appetite. Protest, even the mildest and most reasonable, was smothered by a secret police unconstrained by any constitutional oversight. In 1979 the Iranian people threw off this despotism and swept its counterfeit claims to modernity into history's dustbin. Their revolution was the achievement of the combined forces of many groups, but its driving force was the ideals of Islam. In place of wanton self-indulgence, people were promised lives of dignity and decency. Gross inequities of class and wealth would be overcome by the spirit of brotherhood enjoined by God. The natural resources with which providence has endowed so fortunate a land were declared to be the patrimony of the entire Iranian people, to be used to provide universal employment and education. A new "Islamic Constitution" ostensibly enshrined solemn guarantees of equality before the law for all citizens of the republic. Government would endeavour conscientiously to combine spiritual values with the principles of democratic choice. How do such promises relate to the experience being described 25(30 now) years later by the great majority of Iran's population? From all sides today one hears cries of protest against endemic corruption, political manipulation, the mistreatment of women, a shameless violation of human rights and the suppression of thought. What is the effect on public consciousness, one must further ask, of appeals to the authority of the Holy Qur'an to justify policies that lead to such conditions? Iran's crisis of civilization will be resolved neither by blind imitation of an obviously defective Western culture nor by retreat into medieval ignorance. The answer to the dilemma was enunciated on the very threshold of the crisis, in the clearest and most compelling language, by a distinguished Son of Iran Who is today honoured in every continent of the world, but sadly not in the land of His birth. Persia's poetic genius captures the irony: "I searched the wide world over for my Beloved, while my Beloved was waiting for me in my own home." The world's appreciation of Bahá'u'lláh came perhaps most explicitly into focus on 29 May 1992, the centenary of His death, when the Brazilian Chamber of Deputies met in solemn session to pay tribute to Him, to His teachings and to the services rendered to humanity by the community He founded. On that occasion, the Speaker of the Chamber and spokespersons from every party rose, successively, to express their profound admiration of One who was described in their addresses as the Author of "the most colossal religious work written by the pen of a single Man", a message that "reaches out to humanity as a whole, without petty differences of nationality, race, limits or belief". The victims of injustice today number in countless millions. Each year, the agendas of the human rights organizations are overwhelmed by appeals from spokespersons for oppressed minorities of every type--religious, ethnic, social and national. In the words of Bahá'u'lláh, "Justice is in this day bewailing its plight, and Equity groaneth beneath the yoke of oppression." What has more alarmed perceptive observers of such situations than even the physical and material anguish caused is the spiritual damage done to the victims. Deliberate oppression aims at dehumanizing those whom it subjugates and at de- legitimizing them as members of society, entitled to neither rights nor consideration. Where such conditions persist over any length of time, many of those affected lose confidence in their own perception of themselves. Inexorably, they become drained of that spirit of initiative that is integral to human nature and are reduced to the level of objects to be dealt with as their rulers decide. Indeed, some who are exposed to sustained oppression can become so conditioned to a culture of brutalization that they, in their turn, are ready to commit violence against others, should the opportunity offer itself. Ruling elites can make no more serious error than to imagine that the power they have managed to arrogate to themselves provides an enduring bulwark against the relentless tides of historical change. Today, in Iran as everywhere throughout the world, these tides roll in with insistent urgency and tumultuous force. They are not merely at the door of the house, but rise up irresistibly through its floors. They cannot be diverted. They will not be denied.--Posted by Ron Price, Quoted from the Universal House of Justice Letter, 26 November 2003. ------------- Ron Price has been married for 47 years(in 2014) and a teacher for 35. He has been a writer and editor for 15, and a Baha'i for 55(in 2014). |
Posted By: Asawar Hazaraspa
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 11:47
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Thanks Ron but is it really related to the topic? For those interested check this (an entry in Iranica, fortunately with citation of its sources): http://www.azargoshnasp.net/famous/babak_khorramdin/babakiranica.pdf |
Posted By: RonPrice
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 13:34
------------- Ron Price has been married for 47 years(in 2014) and a teacher for 35. He has been a writer and editor for 15, and a Baha'i for 55(in 2014). |
Posted By: RonPrice
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 13:37
Given the rambling nature of this thread, spread as it is over classical, medieval and early modern times in Iran and the Middle East; given the many tangents to the thrust of the thread and given its content on martyrs, history and extremities of various kinds, I thought a few remarks about the last century or so would be germane. But, of course, I take your point, Asawar. Thanking you.-Ron Price in Australia ------------- Ron Price has been married for 47 years(in 2014) and a teacher for 35. He has been a writer and editor for 15, and a Baha'i for 55(in 2014). |
Posted By: RonPrice
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 13:39
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For some reason that I can not explain, I posted my comment twice.-Ron ------------- Ron Price has been married for 47 years(in 2014) and a teacher for 35. He has been a writer and editor for 15, and a Baha'i for 55(in 2014). |
Posted By: rameshm2
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2016 at 21:25
| the war between the Arabs and Persian took about 20 years during which the Arabs slaughtered non-military civilian by 100's of thousands to bring their barbaric culture to Persian. You are very much misinformed The Persian did not invite the barbaric Arabs with open Aram. As a matter of fact during Ali's caliphate, 4 main provinces of Persia rebelled against the Arab rulers and overthrow them But Ali gathered strong military and attacked them and again replaced them w/ Arab rulers. It is truly a shame that the persian with their great history adopted the savage and barbaric arab customs who didn't even know how to made bread. I really recommend all Iranian go to youtube and watch miss Mehra Maleki's videos of Persian history so you can judge the history from real perspective and not the junk the was fed to you by the Arabs |
Posted By: rameshm2
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2016 at 22:47
| I just came across you post and I find it to be nothing but outright lie. First make it clear, the Persian fought for nearly 10 years to stop the savage Arabs, During Ali's leadership of Islam in 4 major provinces of Persia the people rose up and throw the arabs out and took control of the provinces, but Ali sent in huge military to take control of the provinces and viciously slaughtered them. The savage Arabs literally beheaded 80,000 Persian in one day. The word "ajam" means mute in Arabic. To the Savage Arabs when there was Quran, there was no need for any other book and that's why they burned every single book in every library and there was no need to speak any other language but Arabic, So they forced their language on Persian and told the Persian"the ordinary people" they are not to read write or speak in persian and since the Persian didn't speak arabic they literally didn't speak in fear of their life and the savages gave the persian the nick name "Ajam"or "mute" to make fun of them. How can the civilized people of Persia welcomed the beastly savage arabs who raped their wife and children and then took them as slave? you need to brush up on history of Islam. |