Barbarossa as a pre-emptive strike

    I've been reading many books on the Russian front of WW2 lately, and a few different sources say that at the time of Operation Barbarossa, German Intelligence believed the USSR was preparing for their own invasion of Germany. Does anybody know where specific info on this could be found? I've just been able to find general references.

such plans of course existed, even though USSR and Nazi-Germany had a pact, they were ideological enemies, even arch enemies. Stalin didn't wanted to piss off Hitler, but he would surely have taken the opportunity to strike on Germany first if he found it would have been weakened enough to be invaded. the abandoning of the plans for invading britain and the following invasion of the USSR should be regarded in this way. a continuing of his previous plans would have exposed his eastern flank too much so he descided to carry out his plans for "Lebensraum Ost" earlier as previously planned as he knew Britain could not retaliate descisively within the next few years and the blockade at sea should be sufficient to ensure it.

Yes, i have read about this theory and have wrote about it in this forum or was it at Heavengames where the larger most laughed at it or denied it. I read about it in an Estonian forum and i don't think i will find the certain post again, but i have some information about it in the far end of my curvy brain. Well, here goes:

Lenin himself had a plan for a World War and that the proletariate would take over the world, but for everyones joy, he died due to a long and lets hope a painful disease( a plot for killing him is not excluded ) and his plans were washed out and i don't know if Stalin knew of his plans. But Stalin wasn't too eager of staying in his own natural borders and started prepairing for the one war that would have conquered Europe and later Asia and there on, thw world. After Hitler came to power, Soviet Union invited German officers for training and also, the Russians built some parts of the German Airforce and sent them back to Germany as fight-able fighters. And the SU wasn't sitting on his thumbs either, building heavy-ass tanks for highway use (which are perfect for the Central, and Western European roads as there were none or little in Russia) and also prepairing endless amounts of parachuters which was more then all the other European powers combined could have put out.

The SU also had massive defensive lines on the East which composed of minor compounds which could have sufficiently kept themselves alive for weeks with out  any reinforcements. For some reason Stalin had them destroyed and made the entire Eastern line ready for the offensive against Europe when ready. So, Stalin was waiting for Hitler to start his war and knew that Adolf wasn't much prepared for a war of this scale and knew that in just a few years when Europe would be in ruins and Germany out of fuel, ammo, men that he and the Red Army would invade the entire Europe with minor resistance. A quite logical plan if you ask me. Although one thing postponed  Stalins plans. It was Finland. The Red Army was incapable against a nation of 5 million and that showed the weakness of them at that time as the Red Army that would invade Europe was itself in size of 5 million men. Stalin started doubting and that messed up his plans. Without a delay like that, the SU would have invaded in the end of 1940. or in the very beginning of 1941.

The SU, also broke the Molotov-Ribbendrop pact as they took a little more land than was "required". That being a piece of Romania, where Russian bases were put up. The German High Command got suspicious, but didn't use any military force at that phase of the war. I think Hitler had no hard facts of the invasion but was paranoid and that made him go through with it. Hitler knew that if he would attack England, Stalin would take him down and if he would attack Stalin, the Brittish would invade and annihiliate him. So, Hitler chose to attack the SU as he would rather make friends with a jew then let Europe be Under Slavic or communist rule. So Stalin was caught by surprise and that is the end of that.

So, that makes Hitler the savior of Europe.

Well it is well known that many of the nazi leadership were anti-Adolf and were planning a revolution against him and weren't happy with his policies in any way. And i know that many nazi chiefs were no real fascists and the power could have just aswell have moved to a German Xpywtcob! Goering was no real nazi as he helped many jews to escape or get on the easyroad and could have been the next fuhrer although D�nitz was selected to be the next one in the end and he was one hell of a freaking nazi fascist bastard.

"What exactly did he save Europe from? Stalin would have died eventually and be replaced by moderate socialists(Kruschev and such)"

Isee the matter this way: "Had Stalin conquered Europe with the pre-emptive strike then there naturally would have been no moderate ruler of the Soviet Union as there is no requirements for such politics (the USA would have had much less of an impact on world politics and economy). The world would already be on its knees and so, why would Kruschev deal with soft politics as there is no opponent to his plans and the so called "communism" would reign supreme on most of Earth.

"What?!? I thought that Goering was an utter ass and a huge anti-semite."

He didn't go along with the ideology of national-socialism , but i think he would have immideatly filled any orders to slaughter a couple of hundreds of thousands of jews or people of other ethnicities. He did help a number of jews as i read from a book form Guido Knopp if you know his work. He mostly spent his time in his castle somewhere in Germany and via train imported art treasures form occupied France and had some of his rooms filled with paintings and the ceilings were also covered with them. Then there is something interesting you might want to know about the chubby buddy: He used to wear a kimono in his castle and placed a dagger on the belt or the string of it and jollied around the castle changing the variation of the kimono many times a day. With state affairs....... well he didn't deal very much with them. Although i don't recall any major warcrimes by him, you could mention some of them, but i still believe that if he would have been the next fuhrer, things would have gotten alot softer.

Has any of you have any information on that the Desert Fox would have been the next fuhrer or is it just a faulty memory i have that i vaguely remeber something on that.

A bit off topic but I just love this quote from wikipedia:

G�ring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

G�ring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

EDIT: seems like it could apply to the recent past (or present).

Edited by JanusRook

I could fing quite a few quotes form D�nitz which show that he is the naziest of all. The fact that he wasn't the member of the party makes no difference.

Idiot conspiracy theory.

Proof: http://www.patriotica.ru/history/kozh_41.html (in Russian).

In a very short summary, this myth is largely based on one document 'Consideration on the Plan of Unfolding of Soviet forces in the event of war with the Soviet Union" of Vasilevsky. However, this is entirely about the plans for a response to a German attack, which was not expected until 1942 at the earliest. (Soviet planners assumed Germany would not repeat its ww1 mistake of fighting on 2 fronts, and in any case the Red Army and VVS were far from war-ready in 1941). The main thrust of the document is not about a Soviet assault on Germany (btw, a perfect opportunity for that would have been in summer 1941, when only about 20 divisions guarded eastern Germany and Hitler was involved with conquering France - Lord Anatolius), but rather about the Soviet response (ie counter-attacks) against such an attack. This myth largely originates by a falsified book on the subject, written by Rezun (aka "Viktor Suvorov"), published in 1992 "Ledokol" ("icebreaker"), whereas in fact the material (the Vasilevsky document) on which it is based was the recipe for Soviet victory over Nazi agressors in ww2. (This is not even going into the Stalin's ideological basis, "socialism in one country", with its wish to not delve deeper into foreign politics than creating buffer states around the USSR to blunt Western aggression - Lord Anatolius).

Edited by Lord Anatolius