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Sweden as a great power, 1570s to 1721

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sweden as a great power, 1570s to 1721
    Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 15:37
BTW i finally got the book i mentioned above and i must say by what i've seen so far its really good, but almost all pictures show bayonetts and pikes at twice the lenght they woudl ahve in other armies, so i wonder was this a Swedish specialty or artistic license?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 17:25

Originally posted by Temujin

BTW i finally got the book i mentioned above and i must say by what i've seen so far its really good, but almost all pictures show bayonetts and pikes at twice the lenght they woudl ahve in other armies, so i wonder was this a Swedish specialty or artistic license?

The Swedes (as did the French) held on to the pike longer than other armies.  It had been part of their success, so why change?  In the case of the French, the same can be said of the match lock musket.

I am unaware of any extraordinary length of bayonette used by the Swedish infantry.  It seems unlikely that either pikes or bayonettes would be double-length as that would make them unwieldy.

The Swedish army was still noted for the application of the salvo as an infantry tactic.  Firepower had been an important infantry factor for the Swedes since the 1620s.

Not sure about artistic license.

 

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 17:42
During the Great Northern War, the Swedish army pikes were 6m tall, and the bayonets 70 cm long (only musket 1.5m). The infantry was equipped with 91cm swords as well.

Originally posted by King Kaloian of all Bulgarians

Sweden was a local power.In some period it military power was comparable to Denmark.But in other periods Denmark was the stronger - remeber Niels Juel and the battle with Swedish fleet or Dutch expedition in Baltic.The ruled the waves in the Earen part of the Baltic until Peter the Great create the Russian baltiic fleet.

Certainly not. During what's called the age of Great Power the Swedish army was among the strongest of Europe, and well equipped and trained at that. For example, during the Thirty Years War the Swedish army enrolled over 100,000 men at its peak, and when the Great Northern War started, the standing army was 80,000 men in 36 infantry and 21 cavalry regiments, and during the war a total of 200,000 men were mobilized. Those numbers are far larger than those for eg Britain in the same period, and can be compared with the 35,000 men the Danes could mobilize.

The control of the Baltic sea at most of this time was Swedish, though the Danish and Swedish navies were quite equal in strength and the outcome of the battles more often than not relied on whom got the Dutch or English to support them.


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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 18:33

Allow me a little summary on this topic Styrbiorn - from a danish point of view that is:

1563 - The nordic 7 year War initiated by the Swedes attacking Halland (Scania, Halland and Blekinge is danish territory)
1570 - The peace in Stettin, establishing Denmarks superiority in the Baltics.

1613 - Two year Kalmar War ends - moderate Danish victory.

1625 - Denmark (Chr. IV) enters the 30 year War (bad choice)

1646 - The peace at Bromsebro - Denmark must give up Gotland and sel to Sweden.

1658 - Peace of Roskilde - Denmark must give up Scania, Halland and Blekinge to Sweden.

1659 - Swedish attack on Copenhagen failed. Sweden defeated at Nyborg.

1676 - Denmark lose the battle at Lund.

1700 - Karl 12. attacking Sealand - Denmark surrenders.

1720 - End of The Great Nordic War - Sweden defeated by a koalition.

My point is - the superiority of Denmark is ending around 1650. Sweden becomes the stronger part.


However, we still can beat you in soccer  

 

 

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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 23:40

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

For example, during the Thirty Years War the Swedish army enrolled over 100,000 men at its peak,

Was it only Swedish army or was it Swedish army with German allies?

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 09:46
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

For example, during the Thirty Years War the Swedish army enrolled over 100,000 men at its peak,

Was it only Swedish army or was it Swedish army with German allies?

The troops of the Swedish king (Swedes, Finns, Balts and Scots) rarely exceeded about 15,000 in Germany.  Sweden was not capable of fielding large armies as yet.  The army was swollen by the huge influx of experienced former enemy troops.

By the time of G II A's German intervention, Wallenstein's army had been disbanded, Tilly had been put in command, and many regiments were "out of work."  To a lot of mercenaries, war was war; it was all the same to them, so quite a number of these regiments enlisted en masse under the Swedish king's colors.  As territory was secured in north Germany, and as Imperial/Catholic League troops surrendered, many joined the king.

There are all kinds of numbers cited as to the size of the armies, but the huge army strength didn't last that long (1631-32), and, importantly, the numbers were always widely dispersed in garrisons and in other areas of operation.  Too many troops and camp followers in one place for very long would have starved to death.

The vast majority were Germans.

 

   

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 13:39
"1570 - The peace in Stettin, establishing Denmarks superiority in the Baltics."


What type of superiority, Denmark only held sel, not the mainland. Was it economical superiority over the trade in the Baltics?
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 16:54

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

"1570 - The peace in Stettin, establishing Denmarks superiority in the Baltics."


What type of superiority, Denmark only held sel, not the mainland. Was it economical superiority over the trade in the Baltics?

Not quite accurate...
Denmark held sel as well as Gotland until 1646, or 76 years after the war ended.
Scania, Halland and Blekinge remained Danish until 1658.
The war ended - not because it had any clear winner, but because neither side had any strenght left to continue.
My remark about superiority is founded in the fact that Sweden had to withdraw its claim on Scania, Halland and Blekinge - with Denmark controlling the waterways to and from the Baltic Sea.
On the other hand, Denmark withdrew its claim on the Swedish part of the mainland.
The construction of the castle Kronborg, can be seen as a Danish attempt to continue the war in morter, cupper and limestone -  and to maintain the superiority.

However, the main task for Kronborg to block resund for foreign navy's proved quite unsuccessfull. In 1658, a Swedish crew on the castle couldnt stop a Dutch fleet sailing by, and again in 1801 the Danes tried to stop Lord Nelson on his way down towards Copenhagen - in both cases utterly invain.

In the following years after the 7 years War, Sweden sought revance by expanding and develop more strongholds in the eastern part of the Baltic Sea - which later on became a power that Denmark-Norway couldnt match.

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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 16:12

I do know that by the time of the great northern war the danes could mobilize more than 35 000 men.

40 000 at at least + 15 000 norwegians



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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 18:30

Working from the earlier efforts of Erik XIV, Gustav Adolf developed a "file" system to provide a base and replacement system for the Swedish army.

Under Karl XI, the Indelningsverk system was regularized and lasted until the twentieth century.  This tied military service to proprerty and income benefits for the soldiers and their families.  In the GNW, Karl XII was able to call on about 66,000 Swedish regular soldiers and also about 25,000 mercenaries in the north European lands across the Baltic.  The fleet also had manpower needs, and 15,000 or so seamen were provided from the maritime provinces of the kingdom.

This was a very large number for a population that probably never even approached 2,000,000.  A great strain on the economy, as well as the child bearing generation for the future.

 

 

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 18:53
Hi,
Talking about this I've just red something (in G. Parker the Thirty Years
war) and I guess it would be interesting to share it: in the Swedish village
of Bigdea from 1620 to 1639, 230 men had been called for duty and 215
were "dead" (or disapeared in a way or another). From 500 men in the
village the male population dropped to 300. These datas are similar to
those of a second village studied, Umea.
Who said generals weren't buchers?
Bye.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 19:20

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,
Talking about this I've just red something (in G. Parker the Thirty Years
war) and I guess it would be interesting to share it: in the Swedish village
of Bigdea from 1620 to 1639, 230 men had been called for duty and 215
were "dead" (or disapeared in a way or another). From 500 men in the
village the male population dropped to 300. These datas are similar to
those of a second village studied, Umea.
Who said generals weren't buchers?
Bye.

This was a long term problem for a country with a limited population and difficulty in replacing losses.  Most likely, the rate of deaths was due more to disease and exposure, etc. than to deaths in battle.

Early in their Thirty Years War experience, the Swedes understood that the scale of warfare they were now committed to was far greater than they had experienced before.  After the death of GA, Swedish and Scots troops in the army were held more in reserve and as garrisons, and the bulk of the fighting fell to the German mercenaries.  Swedish commanding officers had made their reputations leading Swedes and Finns, and carried that forward leading Germans in the second half of the war.

The losses in Swedish manpower were very heavy in the Polish War, 1621-29.

 

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 15:14
Hi,
I thought most of the Swedish triumph was due to their soldiers training.
How did they managed to keep this going with mercenaries who most
likely had already officers?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 19:32

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,
I thought most of the Swedish triumph was due to their soldiers training.
How did they managed to keep this going with mercenaries who most
likely had already officers?
Bye.

Almost all armies had contingents of mercenaries.  In the case of Sweden, with a small population, this allowed them to garrison the German and Baltic possessions without taking Swedish farmers and tradesmen away from their homes and from the fatherland.

AFAIK, standards of training, and regulations for all regiments Swedish and mercenary, were the same.

 

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