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A native american question.

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SulcataIxlude View Drop Down
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  Quote SulcataIxlude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A native american question.
    Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 13:27
Please excuse me if this question is rude, but it has been something I have been meaning to ask for a long time. How come in the 19th century the White American governement didn't kill off all the Indians (especially white america's absolute hatred towards Indians)? Was it because it was becoming too expensive to slaughter all the natives, or did they feel I'd be more profitable to exploit them if they had them in reservations?Thank you in advance.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 18:33
For what actually matters, they almost did. 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 19:50

Originally posted by SulcataIxlude

Please excuse me if this question is rude, but it has been something I have been meaning to ask for a long time. How come in the 19th century the White American governement didn't kill off all the Indians (especially white america's absolute hatred towards Indians)? Was it because it was becoming too expensive to slaughter all the natives, or did they feel I'd be more profitable to exploit them if they had them in reservations?Thank you in advance.

This will probably elicit a storm of protest from those whose minds are made up, but it was NEVER conscious policy to eradicate Indians, no matter what some people may have said (like General Sheridan).

My strong feeling is that the native American population was destined to be superceded as soon as Europeans attained a strong position on the North American continent in terms of population.  Hunter-gatherers, like the native Americans, would have inevitably been superceded by agricultural cultures, like the Europeans, due to the requirement of land for agricultural pursuits, even had diseases to which the Indians had no immunities not been introduced in the sixteenth to eighteenth centuries.  The Spanish, French and English had no knowledge of or control over the epidemiology of smallpox, typhus or bubonic plague.  

Once the tide of immigration from Europe really began (1850 to 1920), there was no hope of the native population holding it's own against the enormous numbers of peoples from other cultures.  The native Americans became subsumed in the general population.

Having said this, native Americans were made American citizens, had all civil rights guaranteed to them, have no restriction on their movements, business opportunities, or access to advancement (which is not denied to anyone who has initiative and is willing to take risk).

Indian reservations (established under treaty with the Federal government) were once noted only for poverty and backwardness, but they have taken advantage of Federal legislation to establish enterprise zones, business opportunities such as resorts and rights over natural resources (oil, gas and mineral rights), and have a  large degree of self government, including tribal legislative councils, law courts and police forces.

Their weakness in a democratic republic such as the U.S. is that their numbers are small, and they always were, even in the eighteenth century.  I cannot agree that there was a program of "genocide" which seems to be an overused term in these forums, or there would not be any of them left!  

  



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2005 at 20:51
So what you say is that you wanted their land, not their lives, though in practical terms is about the same.

On the democratic republic coment, I think that natives weren't given citizen's rights till very late in history, maybe the 1950s or so. But you tell me.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2005 at 07:19
Eastern native tribes weren't just hunter-gatherers, they were sedentary and practiced agriculture. Besides, many of them, most significatively the so called five civilized tribes, even imitated the white man manners in almost everything.

Just take a look at these hunter-gatherers (sic) that you mention that were forcedly removed from Georgia (members of the Cherokee nation):

  
Chief John Ross                                           Major Ridge

They seem quite civilized to me.

More on the Native American Genocide question:


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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 08:28

Hi Sulcata -

(BTW - are you really in Indonesia or have you just adopted the flag? I loved touring there!)

Native American history raises some good questions but not without controversy as you have already seen.

I would primarily agree with Pike on this one. The objective of the majority of the Indian wars in North America was neither the eradication nor economic exploitation of the Indians themselves, but rather a fight for the land that the Indians controlled. As far as many Europeans (and later white Americans) were concerned they were simply in the way. Much the same is true of the histories of the indigenous populations of other places settled by Europeans: South America, Australasia, South Africa...

In the United States, Indians were gotten "out of the way" through several methods. Some were removed by relocation; as in the Trail of Tears mentioned above. Some tribes were decimated by disease; the weakness of the once dominant Mandan and Hidatsa following plagues allowed the Sioux to move onto the plains, replacing sedentary agricultural peoples with nomadic hunter-gatherer societies. Some groups were reduced by starvation; the Plains Indians depended on the buffalo, which was hunted almost to extinction by whites. There were few attempts at outright eradication.

In the American model, I agree that genocide is the wrong word. Genocide is defined as "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." Such was rarely the case during American Indian Wars. While it was, occasionally, a goal pursued by individuals, it was never a purpose sanctioned either by the government or by the majority of the residents of the growing country. Once the land was in the hands of the Europeans and the Native Peoples were no longer considered a threat, their presence was tolerated. As the distance from the actual fighting increased you would find greater sympathy for the Indians and their cause. Then, perhaps more so than now, Americans had a need to feel that they were a just and enlightened people, and included in this was the correct treatment of defeated enemies. After the threat of war had passed in the east there came, for many Americans, a feeling of guilt, and with that a tendency to romanticize the Indians.

Throughout the 19th century, even while Indian Wars were still being fought in the west, the image of the Indian as an enemy was gradually being replaced by the romantic image of the "Noble Savage." Cooper's "Last of the Mohicans" (1826) gave us Chingachgook and Uncas, proud forest warriors who are the last of their tribe. Other popular literary characters, including Longfellow's Hiawatha (1855) joined them. Bodmer and Catlin painted realistic images of the Indians that fired imaginations and inspired sympathy. Wooden "Cigar Store Indians" became a popular sales tool. Sioux warriors, including Sitting Bull, who was at the battle of the Little Big Horn, toured America and Europe with Buffalo Bill's Wild West show, and Geronimo signed autographs (for a fee) at the St. Louis World's Fair. While the image of the Indian portrayed in popular culture through the end of the 19th and well into the 20th century was not in any way correct, it did, in many Americans, plant a desire to preserve some of the lost ways and spurred further study of the Indian cultures.

While there were some who believed that "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," this was in no way a universally held belief in 18th and 19th century America. Many Americans actually had sympathy for the Indian cause from very early on. Roger Williams, who founded the state of Rhode Island, also wrote the first book of translation from Algonquian to English. His "A Key into the Language of America or An help to the Language of the Natives in that part of America called New England," was published in 1643. Throughout his life, he insisted that any land settled by whites had to be fairly purchased from the Indians. He acted as a mediator during the Pequot War, and in King Phillip's War, during which 12 colonial towns were burned to the ground, he remained unharmed in Providence as the town was being attacked and burned by the Indians. The country was only a few years old when Thomas Jefferson was inviting leaders of the tribes contacted by Lewis and Clarke to come to Washington. In one of the most cold-blooded and calculating events of the Indian Wars, Cheyenne chief Black Kettle's village at Sand Creek was attacked by Col. Chivington's Colorado volunteer cavalry. One hundred and twenty three Indians, mostly women and children, were killed. Some of Chivington's own troops were so disgusted that they wrote letters of protest to Washington, leading to an investigation and national outcry that disgraced Chivington and Colorado. When Chiricaua Apaches were removed to Florida prisons, General Crook (see below) campaigned for the rest of his life to have them returned to their homes and never let the media or the public forget how the Indians had been treated. Catherine Weldon, a wealthy widow, moved to Dakota in 1889 as a representative of the "National Indian Defense Association" and her (especially for those times) outrageous antics assured that the plight of the reservation Lakotah stayed in the headlines. Each of these individuals was backed by national organizations and by members of the growing American press.

The Apache Wars of Arizona and New Mexico are a good model for what happened during many of the Indian wars. The Apache initially made friendly overtures to the American settlers, who treated them quite badly in return. One chief, Mangas Coloradas, was whipped almost to death simply for repeatedly approaching a one group as he tried to learn more about the whites. Cochise made friendly overtures but was led into an ambush negotiating with soldiers and was shot several times. While both survived their attacks, they felt strongly betrayed and became implacable enemies of the Americans. For the duration of the hostilities, from the 1830's through 1886, The United States broke every treaty and agreement with the Apache. During these wars one US military leader, General Carleton, did look to the complete extermination of the Apache. He was opposed by many, even in his own command. Colonels Kit Carson and John Cremony actively worked against the extermination policy and regularly ignored his orders. The 1871 massacre of eighty-five Apache was celebrated in Arizona, but caused national indignation and started a firestorm of protest. A special envoy was sent to the southwest reporting directly to the President. Carleton's replacement, General Crook, pursued a policy of conciliation, and while he was later replaced by General Miles who finished the campaign, he developed a lifelong admiration for the Apache.

The treatment of Native Americans during the settlement of the United States was by no means fair or good or in any way correct - particularly when judged by today's standards, but there were and are many who recognize that this was the case. This does not, however, allow license to credit the Indians with more than what they had actually accomplished. The Choctaw, Creek, Cherokee and other "civilized" tribes (as pictured in the post above) were living in a society modeled entirely after the European based society that surrounded them. These wealthy Indians were slave owning southern planters who mimicked all the habits, good and bad, of the jealous whites who finally displaced them; again for their valuable land. We cannot separate and judge today the wrongs committed by our ancestors against our ancestors. We can only strive to see that we do not forget the lessons of history and do not let similar situations occur today.

Re: Indian voting rights - This is a question closely tied to the granting of citizenship to the conquered tribes. An 1881 Supreme Court decision stated that all Indians were residents of the state in which they resided, with the intent of giving Indians citizenship and rights. The Burke act of 1904 directly addressed the issue of Indian citizenship, but required that Native Americans leave their tribes to gain their rights as citizens so that there was not dual loyalty. As it became apparent that many states were circumventing these decisions, in 1924, Congress granted citizenship to all U.S born Native American. Another law was passed in 1927 granting all Native Americans voting rights. The right to vote was governed by state law and some states still tried to block this, with Utah being the last state to withhold suffrage, finally won in 1957. http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_04 1800_voting.htm

In the case of Utah it must be remembered that Utah was once predominantly Mormon and the Church of Latter Day Saints held (holds) great influence there. The Mormons are not traditionally a racially tolerant group and have a unique perspective on things. A more modern example; after much discussion, God finally revealed to them in 1979 that blacks could be full church members and hold positions in the priesthood. That's another discussion.

http://www.ondoctrine.com/1mormo23.htm

http://www.bible.ca/mor-blacks-racism.htm

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 08:59

Vagabond:

Well researched, and eloquently presented.  (and not just because you were in some agreement with me)

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 16:45
The American conquest of Native American lands was for just that, Native American lands. Some people did think, like the Paxton Boys, that the only good Native American was a bad one. Even famous Andy Jackson massacred Crows and Creeks when he conquered Florida. The Native Americans main problem was that they did not want to advance technologically. They were basically hundreds of years behind the white settlers in the 1600s and it showed. They had bows that only worked for short range, flint knives, and stone arrowheads. The Native Americans themselves were divided. Kind of like the many Gallic tribes during the Early Roman Empire. Many Native American tribes were so mad that they fought each other. Only some unions, like the Iroqious and the Union of Ottawa tribes, tried to resist and failed. The Native Americans biggest mistake was letting white settlers come to their lands.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 19:19

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

The American conquest of Native American lands was for just that, Native American lands. Some people did think, like the Paxton Boys, that the only good Native American was a bad one. Even famous Andy Jackson massacred Crows and Creeks when he conquered Florida. The Native Americans main problem was that they did not want to advance technologically. They were basically hundreds of years behind the white settlers in the 1600s and it showed. They had bows that only worked for short range, flint knives, and stone arrowheads. The Native Americans themselves were divided. Kind of like the many Gallic tribes during the Early Roman Empire. Many Native American tribes were so mad that they fought each other. Only some unions, like the Iroqious and the Union of Ottawa tribes, tried to resist and failed. The Native Americans biggest mistake was letting white settlers come to their lands.

As if they had a choice....once the tide rolled in, it was too late to stop it. 

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 20:30
Yeah, but it is sad that they tried many times to stop the tide and failed a vast majority of the times.

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  Quote SulcataIxlude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 07:08
Thank you very much Vagabond, and Pike. Your insightful information and research have answered many of my questions. It seems like James A Michiner based Skimmerhorn off of Chivington in his book 'Centennial' (you must see the tv series sometime: It is the best 'western' due to a lot of authentic costumes and cultural things from the 18th century Colorado onward, especially with the Arapaho and Pawnee Indians.) Since Skimmerhorn was involved with a raid similar to the one Chivington did, and he was 'forsaken' by society due to his actions.

By the way I am from the USA, but my girlfriend is Chinese-Javanese, so I adopted her flag in her honor.
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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 10:14

The Native Americans biggest mistake was letting white settlers come to their lands.

Yeah, but it is sad that they tried many times to stop the tide and failed a vast majority of the times.

The early New England Wars were some of the best attempts by the Native Americans to stop the settlement of the Europeans, as well as being the some of the bloodiest of the Indian Wars. The Pequot War in 1637 could have eradicated all settlements in the Connecticut River Valley and along Long Island Sound had Roger Williams not used his influence with the powerful Narragansett tribe to keep them from entering the fray. They allied with the English colonists instead. It was a war of short duration. In the deciding battle of the war, now called the Mystic massacre, between 300 and 500 Indians, including women and children, were surrounded by the Connecticut colonists, Massachusetts Bay militia and a large force of Narragansett and burned in their palisade at Misistuck (present day Mystic). This effectively finished the war, although the Pequot were hunted through the New England forests for another year or so. Their chief, Sassacus, tried to take refuge with the Mohawk, who put him to death instead of giving him sanctuary.

Ironically, the alliance of the powerful Narragansett with the colonists led to their later demise as the colonists were then able to fight the tribes piecemeal rather than in force. Had the Narragansett joined with the Pequot it is almost certain that the European colonies in New England would have been temporarily eradicated. It was still a close game. During King Phillip's War in 1675, the Narragansett, Wamponoag and other New England tribes did rise up against the ongoing depredations of the Colonists. Of the 90 some New England villages and towns existing at the time, over 50 were attacked and at least a dozen were burned. By preventing their taking the side of the other Indians in 1637, the "Friend of the Indian" Roger Williams had inadvertently brought about their eventual downfall. Another of the many ironies; in one of the most devastating battles of this war, the Connecticut and Massachusetts militia came in over the ice near present day Kingston, Rhode Island and surrounded and destroyed a Narragansett palisade in what is now called the Great Swamp Massacre. They had learned the tactic from their Narragansett allies during the Pequot War.

A humorous (today) footnote to the War is included in the report of Edward Randolph, special emissary of King James II, who reported that the War was the colonist's fault.

But the government of the Massachusetts (to give it in their own words) do declare these are the great evills for which God hath given the heathen commission to rise against them: The wofull breach of the 5th commandment, in contempt of their authority, which is a sin highly provoking to the Lord: For men wearing long hair and perewigs made of women's hair ; for women wearing borders of hair and for cutting, curling and laying out the hair, and disguising themselves by following strange fashions in their apparell: For profaneness in the people not frequenting their meetings, and others going away before the blessing be pronounced: For suffering the Quakers to live amongst them and to set up their threshholds by Gods thresholds, contrary to their old lawes and resolutions.

More of his report here: http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/45-ran.html

Vanity is its own punishment. Go to church. And God forbid, don't be tolerant!

 

http://www.dowdgen.com/dowd/document/pequots.html

http://www.usahistory.com/wars/pequot.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pequot_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Phillip%27s_War

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/king_philip.htm

Re: Colonel Chivington - He was apparently an ass with political ambitions. In "Moon of Popping Trees," his excellent study of the Plains Indian wars, Rex Alan Smith says of him:

Colonel John Chivington was many things. He was a Methodist Preacher and thus, presumably, a man of God. He was also a hot-eyed Indian Hater. And finally, hoping to win high political office, he was out to make a reputation. In Colorado during that bloody year, the way to make a reputation was by killing IndiansFrom both the Indian's present location and the peace conferences of the past summer, Chivington could not have failed to know that Black Kettle was friendly. Nor could he have failed to see the flags above the chief's tent. Regardless, this half-mad officer who had once startled a dinner party by announcing that he "longed to wade in gore" set out to do just that

Another good example of what you get when you mix God and war. At least he didn't (that I know of) complain about Quakers and wigs.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/a_c/chivington.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chivington

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2005 at 14:15
First of all the only reason why the natives like europeans into there lands in because they felt sorry for them because they were dirty half starved and scared of the land. secondly both the governtments of the British(later americans) and canadains viewed the natives as a problem to be delt with why do u think they sent whole armies to slaughter woman and children becuase thats the real way to destroy a people and a way of life
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2005 at 16:41

I dont think anyone gave a damn about who was living how.  One thing we have to remember that people always seem to forget is that there was no pan Native American idea or conciousness.  For every tribe that fought heroically against the government I can name another that saw alliance with the government as means to destroy an older more hated rival, such as the Crow and the Flathead becomming government allies to get revenge on the Sioux (whos "sacred native lands" in the black hills were actually taken from other people).

Also remeber the Natives were formiddable foes.  Especially in the woodlands they really won most of the battles and lost the war because they ran out of supplies.

Also by the time the US government was powerful enough to carry out a systematic genocide popular sentiment was changing.  The court case about tribal removal involving Standing Bear of the Ponca tribe aroused public sympathy that was not there before.

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