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High Frequency of Hap IJ in Iran

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: High Frequency of Hap IJ in Iran
    Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 13:12
According to wikipedia there is a high frequency of people with haplogroup IJ in Iran, the ancestor of haplgroup I and J.  Does that mean that Iran was the homeland of haplgorup I and J?
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 15:06
It is probably not the home, but near to the origins of thsat group. The distribution of IJ lets suppose, that western asia is the region in which IJ developed.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 22:04
Originally posted by beorna

It is probably not the home, but near to the origins of thsat group. The distribution of IJ lets suppose, that western asia is the region in which IJ developed.


What is the likelihood that the IJ homeland was in Aryana (somewhere in Afghanistan), there was a Great Winter so IJ moved east to Iran (J2), Mesopotamia (J1), and Scandinavia (haplgroup I)?
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 22:06
correction west not east to Iran from Afghanistan...
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 22:17
Haplogroup I, I should add, is the only Haplogroup that is indigenous to Europe, and J came to Europe later, to mostly parts of Southern Europe.  
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2014 at 02:27
As I said, western Asia is probably the home of IJ, that may include Iran as well. The problem is, that research isn't able to show the exact place of origin and as well not the exact time of origin. Fact is, that till 46k BP the neanderthalians populated western Asia as findings from Shanidar in Northern Iraq let suppose.That means, that modern human populations at that time lived in Africa, on the Arabian peninsula and east of Iraq. The populations east of Iraq carried mainly haplogroup F. The existance of G in Iran e.g. and the caucasus let suppose, that Inner Iran was not the home of H/IJK, but rather the coastal strip. While later H evolved in India, IJ and KLT followed the neanderthalians after 46k.
LT is interesting, because L appears in high frequency in the Indus valley and T is strong in Mesopotamia, southern Iran, parts of Arabia and on the horn of Afrika. IJ appears with it's subgroups I and J later in Europe and western Asia. That let suppose, that IJ was the western group, while KLT was the eastern one.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2014 at 03:09
Originally posted by mojobadshah


What is the likelihood that the IJ homeland was in Aryana (somewhere in Afghanistan), there was a Great Winter so IJ moved east to Iran (J2), Mesopotamia (J1), and Scandinavia (haplgroup I)?

Hard to believe, that a great winter forces people to migrate to scandinavia!
I is one of the oldest haplotypes in europe and probably came with waves short before the LGM during the Laugerie-Interstadial.

The Scandinavian I1 is quite young, maybe even only 4-5ky, see Pedro Soares, Alessandro Achilli, Ornella Semino, William Davies, Vincent Macaulay, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt, Antonio Torroni, and Martin B. Richards, The Archaeogenetics of Europe, Current Biology, vol. 20 (February 23, 2010), R174–R183. Maybe we should connect it with the evolution of agriculture in northern europe and the Funnelbeaker-culture.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2014 at 16:31
So I1 isn't indigenous to Europe?
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 07:16
Originally posted by mojobadshah

So I1 isn't indigenous to Europe?

It seems to be indigenous, based on an older balkanic I.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 10:44
Originally posted by beorna

Originally posted by mojobadshah

So I1 isn't indigenous to Europe?

It seems to be indigenous, based on an older balkanic I.

So I is indigenous to Europe, but ultimately came out of Iran where there is a 34% frequency of I and a high number of its maternal halpogroup  pair.  There is also a lot of J2 in Iran.  Considering that J is related to I and I is  viking DNA these must be where the Nordic traits paleontologists assign to both the Iranians such as the Pashtuns and also the Scandinavians.  
 

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 10:47
As to the home land of IJ I would place it in Aryana which according to Michael Witzel is in Afghanistan where the climate agrees with Avestan record.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 16:08
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by beorna

Originally posted by mojobadshah

So I1 isn't indigenous to Europe?

It seems to be indigenous, based on an older balkanic I.

So I is indigenous to Europe, but ultimately came out of Iran where there is a 34% frequency of I and a high number of its maternal halpogroup  pair.  There is also a lot of J2 in Iran.  Considering that J is related to I and I is  viking DNA these must be where the Nordic traits paleontologists assign to both the Iranians such as the Pashtuns and also the Scandinavians.  
 


I was wondering, why you speak about a high percentage of in Iran. You probably quote Nasidze et al. 2004, p.213, who has 34% I* for Iraniana from Teheran. More recent studies like Alshamaly et al. 2009 have for I*= 3.1% and for  I2a = 1%. This study is supported by Regueiro,Spencer Wells and Cadenas, who's data result is between % 1-3 for haplogroup I in Iran.So it is very likely, that Nasidze's result is wrong.

So in Iran there is about 3% I, 22 % J, 16% R1a, 6% R1b, 10% G, 5% E, 4% for L and Q, 2% for N and the rest is distributed among several others (27%).

As I wrote above, IJK belonged to populations in western asia, short before the westmigration of Homo sapiens to Little Asia and Europe. It belonged to other haplogroups in that era F (later G) and H. IJ spread across Little Asia and Arabia and maybe on the Arabian peninsula J differentiated from IJ and I evolved in Europe (or maybe even in Little Asia) and became common in Europe after 20-25ky BP. Here I remained on the balkans widely, because the glacial did not allow a way north into the arctic deserts of middle europe.

The area of balkanic I is as well the area of the first agricultural cultures in europe, old europe, danubian cultures. I1 evolved ca. 5000 years ago on the balkans or even already in Northern germany or danmark. It is not unlikely, that these first I people were people from the Balkan. Maybe they even introduced agriculture in the North with the funnelbeaker culture and therefor were more reproductive. This may explain as well their high percentage in Scandinavia with more than 30%.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 16:48
Originally posted by mojobadshah

As to the home land of IJ I would place it in Aryana which according to Michael Witzel is in Afghanistan where the climate agrees with Avestan record.

While I agree with Witzel about a non-indigenous origins of the Indo-Iranians in India (Out-of-India-hypothesis), I wouldn't restrict the Indo-Iranians only to Afghanistan, but to a wider region, including the sibirian steppe belt. The mistake you make is, that you mix things which are not related to each other, haplogroups in populations, linguistic groups and ethnics. IJ is more than 35ky old, IJK is older than 40ky. Haplogroup K led to subgroups like O and N, which are north and east asian, to groups like M, P, Q and S which are Southeast Asian and Amerindian. And it led to R, which has a high frequency among Indo-europeans.
That shows, that IJK is older than the differentiation of mongolide people from people in europe and west asia.
IJ is found in high numbers in europe and westasia, but rare in Iran and other areas of South Asia. So it is hardly "Aryan".
Indoiranians are a linguistic group, not restricted to haplogroups. The origins of these group lie perhaps in the Yamna-culture

Ethnics are a widely young groups. Iranians, germanics, Celts are all just a few thousand years old. They originated long after any migration of IJ or I or R. I1 is not a Viking DNA, it is just frequent in Scandinavia, besides R1a and R1b e,g.
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