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Islamic state verses constitutional republic

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Islamic state verses constitutional republic
    Posted: 28-Nov-2010 at 09:40
Can we reframe the arguments  about Muslims, separating if from a confusing and muddled  religious debate and making it purely a political debate that does matter?   What are the differences between an Islamic state and a secular republic? 

Edited by Athena - 29-Nov-2010 at 01:13
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2010 at 13:58
I think an Islamic state is more proper for an Islamic country than a secular state, in fact Islam and secularism are opposite things, it is not possible to be a Muslim but also believe in secularism.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2010 at 18:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think an Islamic state is more proper for an Islamic country than a secular state, in fact Islam and secularism are opposite things, it is not possible to be a Muslim but also believe in secularism.
 
Really? Do you mean that every muslim person want his state to be islamic and separation of state and religion is not possible to accept for a muslim?
 
Does it mean that all the muslims who emigrate to Europe will want to change the countries in which they live now into islamic republic because their religion demands it from them?
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2010 at 20:42
Are you kidding me? Dont listen to Cyrus, he has no idea what hes talking about.-
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 00:41
Originally posted by Mosquito

Really? Do you mean that every muslim person want his state to be islamic and separation of state and religion is not possible to accept for a muslim?
 
Does it mean that all the muslims who emigrate to Europe will want to change the countries in which they live now into islamic republic because their religion demands it from them?
 
Yes, of course it depends on that they are real Muslims or not, a large number of people who call themselves Muslims, like me, really don't follow any Islamic laws, according to Quran, like 4:59, Muslims shouldn't separate their government from their religion.
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 01:14
Excuse me, the question is what are the differences between an Islamic state and a secular constitutional republic, other than supposedly being a theocracy and the other secular.   Those words really mean nothing, without details of the differences. 
 
The USA has always been a Christian dominated country and these people believe their country is doing the will of God.  Their whole history is about their belief in God's will.  Their greatest enemy since WWII, was the USSR which opposed religion.  They reacted to the godless, communist nation, by putting "in god we trust" on their money, and adding "one nation under God" to their national pledge of allegence, making it clear to the world they put god above all else.  When they do not believe a leader is doing the will of God, they vote this person out of office, that is why they gave themselves the right to vote in the first place, to assure only men of God have the power of governing.   Now how is the government of this Christian dominated, constitutional republic, believing its actions are destined by God, and that it is following the will of God, different from an Islamic state? 
 
By the way, Lincoln thought it was the will of God that the issue of slavery be settled by war.  What if we agreed the fighing among Muslims is the will of God and stayed out of it?   In human history their have been those who think God wills humans to wars, and those who think humans are capable of resolving their differences through reason.   Secular government is the choice of religious people who believe we can resolve our differences with reason.   The secular government does not interfere with their religious freedom. 


Edited by Athena - 29-Nov-2010 at 02:11
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 05:19
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Are you kidding me? Dont listen to Cyrus, he has no idea what hes talking about.-
 
Unlike you and me, he knows better what he talks about than anyone else here, because he lives in the state which is islamic republic.
 
And this what Cyrus said is moreless similar with my experiences. Iv seen how muslim immigrants behave in such tollerant country like Australia...


Edited by Mosquito - 29-Nov-2010 at 05:21
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 09:03
Cyrus just told you that you cannot be a Muslim and be secular...DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? Believe me, I am an Iranian too, and I'm telling you, Cyrus does not know what hes talking about. My family is a SECULAR Muslim family. So secular, in fact, that no one in my family forced Islam on anyone else, and I am now an atheist while, for example, my grandmother is a very devout Muslim.

That right there is one example of Islam and Secularism working quite will with each other!

Answer this question: can you be a Christian or a Jew and still be secular?


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 29-Nov-2010 at 09:05
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 10:23
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Cyrus just told you that you cannot be a Muslim and be secular...DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? Believe me, I am an Iranian too, and I'm telling you, Cyrus does not know what hes talking about. My family is a SECULAR Muslim family. So secular, in fact, that no one in my family forced Islam on anyone else, and I am now an atheist while, for example, my grandmother is a very devout Muslim.

That right there is one example of Islam and Secularism working quite will with each other!

Answer this question: can you be a Christian or a Jew and still be secular?
 
Im not an expert about the Jews as they (at least those religious) were always in Poland to some extent aliens. But in fact, as for the christians, one cant be the real christian and secular. Im a person who lives in Poland. About the 95% people here are nominally catholics (including myslef). In the reality about 20% - 25% of people votes in the way the catholic church wants. They got conservative christian party that is against such things like abortion, in vitro, euthanasia or gay marriages. However more people is against church when it comes to politics, but there are few politicians who challenges to stand up against the church, being afraid to be called "commies".
Polish constitution say that the state and religion are completelly separate but, children got religion lessons in the state owned schools, there is a cross in Polish Seym (parliament), there are priests in the army (of all christian religions but majority are catholic priests) etc, etc.
 
Im against the church of any kind in the public life and I do belive that property of the church that was gathered during last 1000 years should be nationalised, all the crosses should be wiped out from the public buildings, and that church should pay the taxes like every other company in this country.
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 11:22
i am a muslim but i must say that sharia law can really easily abused by people, it has already been abused by people like saudi, taliban, pakistan/afghanistan etc...
 
according to most current muslims here in the west, sharia law is not possible to be establised as a (state) law in most countries, because there is no central authority exists in islam currently, infact the only time muslim had a central authority was when prophet existed.
 
Muslims believe the only time sharia law will properly be implemented when the (mahdi) comes to establish a Khilafat, he will unite muslims and the believing Christian/Jews.


Edited by balochii - 29-Nov-2010 at 11:23
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 11:48
Originally posted by Athena

What are the differences between an Islamic state and a secular republic? 
 
As mentioned, Islamic states use religous law,  Muslim secular states use variants of western judicial thought (Napoleonic in French influenced nations, Common law in British and perhaps Roman law in others).
 
Even some of the secular muslim states have Islamic law influences.  For example, inheritance law in Tunisia (Napoleonic) is based on Islamic law.  Likewise, I would not be surprised if some aspects of Islamic law influence the Jordanian system.


Edited by Cryptic - 29-Nov-2010 at 11:51
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 11:50
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Cyrus just told you that you cannot be a Muslim and be secular...DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? Believe me, I am an Iranian too, and I'm telling you, Cyrus does not know what hes talking about. My family is a SECULAR Muslim family. So secular, in fact, that no one in my family forced Islam on anyone else, and I am now an atheist while, for example, my grandmother is a very devout Muslim.

That right there is one example of Islam and Secularism working quite will with each other!

Answer this question: can you be a Christian or a Jew and still be secular?
 
Yes!  Just like Christians are Christians and secular.  If Muslims and
Christians do not get what is going here, they could end up blowing up the world, because they are like someone looking in the mirror and arguing with himself.  The God of Abraham is an imaginable God, who begins as a jealous, fearsome, revengeful and punishing war God who makes it possible for his chosen people to have victory in war.  This God was not the universal God people have sense made out him to be, since He was confused with the Zoroastrian God of light and truth, but the God of Abraham beings as one of many tribal gods.  I love Dattaswami's contribution to our consciousness, the difference between the imigable God and unimaginable God.  All the holy books tell of the unknown and unknowable God, and then adherents of these holy books, proceed to cling to the imiginable God and make war with each other.  Of course the winner of the war is the one with the true GodWink or the correct understanding of God LOL 
 
Being Secular, means accepting God is unknowable, and we are doing the best we can with our human minds, that can not know the will of God, but only the will of man. 
 
ps Dattaswami's understanding of the unimaginable God is related to the orginal Zoroastrian understanding of God, carried by Persians who spread the religion as far as Jerusalem.  Later a branch of this religion, Mithraism was spread by Romans as far of the Birtish Isle.  Democracy requires us to be informed and this is why our Statue of Liberty holds a torch for enlightenment and a book for literacy.  Of course those who study only one holy book can not manifest a true democracy, because they remain in the darkness.  Wink  Zoroastrian is desiring the truth and light above all esle.  So is a true democracy. 


Edited by Athena - 29-Nov-2010 at 12:11
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 12:34
Originally posted by Cryptic

As mentioned, Islamic states use religous law,  Muslim secular states use variants of western judicial thought (Napoleonic in French influenced nations, Common law in British and perhaps Roman law in others).
 
 
Napoleonic or common law both come from the Roman Law. Napoleonic Law to bigger extent, common law to lesser extent. There is no legal system in Europe which isint influenced by Roman Law.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 12:40
I personally think that all those Jewish religions like christianity, judaism and islam are dangerous for the state and they all tend to corrupt. The only way to have free state is to have the state free of any religious influences. However there are modern religions which are even worse than those Jewish based religions, like for example communism and the belief into proletariat and it leading role in the society. Or the belief that some people are better than others because are Germans or whatever that makes them master race.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2010 at 13:00
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Cyrus just told you that you cannot be a Muslim and be secular...DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? Believe me, I am an Iranian too, and I'm telling you, Cyrus does not know what hes talking about. My family is a SECULAR Muslim family. So secular, in fact, that no one in my family forced Islam on anyone else, and I am now an atheist while, for example, my grandmother is a very devout Muslim.

That right there is one example of Islam and Secularism working quite will with each other!

Answer this question: can you be a Christian or a Jew and still be secular?
 
I doubt your grandmother, as a sample of a very devout Muslim, knows anything about secularism but you can ask her about those things that Mosquito mentioned, like Gay/Homosexual marriages. Do you think a devout Muslim really follows non-Islamic laws, even they are against Islam?
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2010 at 12:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I doubt your grandmother, as a sample of a very devout Muslim, knows anything about secularism but you can ask her about those things that Mosquito mentioned, like Gay/Homosexual marriages. Do you think a devout Muslim really follows non-Islamic laws, even they are against Islam?


By definition, if any Christian, Jew, or Muslims followed their "holy" books as they were, they'd be anti-secularism. The Evangelical Christian movement in the United States, for example, is against secularism and they are trying hard to turn the United States into some form of a theocratic state.

I dont think that YOU know what secularism is, and you certainly do NOT understand how secularism works in the West.

For example, in the "SECULAR" United States of America, homosexuals cannot get married. So is the United States not a secular nation?

To say that one cannot be both Muslim and secular is ridiculous, just as saying that one cannot be Jew and secular, or a Christian and secular.

Cyrus, stop talking about things you know nothing about.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 30-Nov-2010 at 12:14
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2010 at 01:05
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Athena

What are the differences between an Islamic state and a secular republic? 
 
As mentioned, Islamic states use religous law,  Muslim secular states use variants of western judicial thought (Napoleonic in French influenced nations, Common law in British and perhaps Roman law in others).
 
Even some of the secular muslim states have Islamic law influences.  For example, inheritance law in Tunisia (Napoleonic) is based on Islamic law.  Likewise, I would not be surprised if some aspects of Islamic law influence the Jordanian system.
 
Thank you for your explanation, but I still know nothing of the difference.  Yes, Muslims do things differently.  What is that difference? 
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2010 at 01:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Cyrus just told you that you cannot be a Muslim and be secular...DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU? Believe me, I am an Iranian too, and I'm telling you, Cyrus does not know what hes talking about. My family is a SECULAR Muslim family. So secular, in fact, that no one in my family forced Islam on anyone else, and I am now an atheist while, for example, my grandmother is a very devout Muslim.

That right there is one example of Islam and Secularism working quite will with each other!

Answer this question: can you be a Christian or a Jew and still be secular?
 
I doubt your grandmother, as a sample of a very devout Muslim, knows anything about secularism but you can ask her about those things that Mosquito mentioned, like Gay/Homosexual marriages. Do you think a devout Muslim really follows non-Islamic laws, even they are against Islam?
 
How is the Muslim religous opposition to homo sexuals, different from the Christian opposition to homosexuals?  A gentleman who served in the second world war, thought he would get get our approval when he told us, how men suspected of being homo sexual were thrown over board late and night and never seen again.   Some have thought it socially acceptable to beat homo sexuals to death.   We have places where homosexuals would be killed if their neighbors knew they were homosexual.   We are slowing moving towards accepting homosexuals and protecting their human rights, but the Christian bible is agreement with Islam about homosexuality and this makes change very difficult.  Christians often say our acceptence of homosexuality is the result of Satan being in control, and that this will destroy our country. 


Edited by Athena - 02-Dec-2010 at 01:25
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  Quote progress212 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2010 at 09:43
to be honest, there is no such thing as being a "Modern Muslim" or "Modern Christian" . being modern in a way automatically means that you are being a bad Muslim or a bad Christian etc.
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