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disease as a weapon?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: disease as a weapon?
    Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 20:59
Well, I agree. If the Mayflower is important, then give more relevance to the Thanksgiving day, and in that day remark the heritage of Amerindians in the culture of the United States.
 
Starting from turkey, corn and syrups, and ending in so many things that Americans are not aware, the Indigenous heritage exist in the people of today's United States.
 
If you allow me, Americans wouldn't be what they are without theirs indigenous past and part. Americans would be just another kind of Europeans, and not the original people you are.
 
I know the effect of the Americas; after all I am a Chilean LOL
 
 
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 21:29
This may sound a little surprising to you, but i  remember when i was in either first or second grade back in  78-79, that my teacher had put great amount of emphasis on what you pointed out. I distinctly remember a class discussion about a particular picture of indians and settler's sitting down too eat a feast, in which they had brought too share with the settler's. Sounds a littel corny doesn't it?
 
But, she also pointed out that the picture represented more then just sharing. It also meant that without their generosity, the settler's would of starved quicker than we could say - thanksgiving!
 
Funny how some things really stick in the mind, when something jars the ol' memory.


Edited by Panther - 03-Nov-2007 at 21:30
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2007 at 22:04
That's very true. In the colonization of my country we have pathetic histories of settlers starving to death. Without local help, things would have been very though for the Europeans in these lands.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2007 at 19:32
(2) The number and densities of the natives at contact is not known. That's something we should agree. It is clear that in North America the densities were quite lower than in Mexico and the Andes, but hardly smaller than in the Amazons and Patagonia.
We agree on that. Lets say that in various mesoamerican places density might have reached 100/km2 while on average in modern days US, Can, Bra and Arg it must have been around or lower than 0.1/km2.
 
(3) In Latin America, even with all the suffering that certainly exist, hardly a group was erased from the face of earth. Most of them assimilated. Culture dissapeared but people managed to integrate somehow to the invaders.
I'm not contesting that either. I'm simply saying that the picture changes whether you talk in absolute terms or relative ones. For instance had the mapuches or the sioux suffered in absolute terms losses similar to the Aztecs they would have totally disappeared as none of the two nomadic groups had more than a million persons. Then the question is what is worst? killing 1 millions people from a group counting 10 millions or 100 from a group counting 101?
 
About 5) 7) 8) 9)
By the way, I have made my calculations and I estimate that if you count all the indigenous genetics in the U.S. melting pot you get to the equivalent between 8 to 15% of the genetic pool. Not that bad.
This goes against your previous claim that there was more of a genocide in the US then elsewhere. If the US's percentile of native genetics is low couldn't we simply assume that rather than a special mentality there were special circumstances. First of all they were more fragile (Aztecs weren't as dependent as the Sioux were toward one single and fragile source of income such as the Buffalos). Second they were less numerous. Third their resistance was less successful (Mapuches resisted for centuries while the Sioux were destroyed in a couple of decades). Fourth  the terrain exposed them more (nowhere to hide in the great plaines).
 
The only thing that remains then is that the U.S. give more importance to its pre-colombian past, and that forget that ridiculous story of the foundational Mayflower. Americans live there long time before those events.
I see. But what I must say why should we be more interested in the history of the land than the history of the people?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 01:23
Originally posted by Maharbbal

(2) The number and densities of the natives at contact is not known. That's something we should agree. It is clear that in North America the densities were quite lower than in Mexico and the Andes, but hardly smaller than in the Amazons and Patagonia.
We agree on that. Lets say that in various mesoamerican places density might have reached 100/km2 while on average in modern days US, Can, Bra and Arg it must have been around or lower than 0.1/km2.
 
 
Agree. People don't usually knows, for example, that most of the Patagonia had virtually not people at all, before colonization. The total numbers were in the thousands.

Originally posted by Maharbbal

(3) In Latin America, even with all the suffering that certainly exist, hardly a group was erased from the face of earth. Most of them assimilated. Culture dissapeared but people managed to integrate somehow to the invaders.
I'm not contesting that either. I'm simply saying that the picture changes whether you talk in absolute terms or relative ones. For instance had the mapuches or the sioux suffered in absolute terms losses similar to the Aztecs they would have totally disappeared as none of the two nomadic groups had more than a million persons. Then the question is what is worst? killing 1 millions people from a group counting 10 millions or 100 from a group counting 101?
 
Yes, that's true.
Originally posted by Maharbbal

About 5) 7) 8) 9)
By the way, I have made my calculations and I estimate that if you count all the indigenous genetics in the U.S. melting pot you get to the equivalent between 8 to 15% of the genetic pool. Not that bad.
This goes against your previous claim that there was more of a genocide in the US then elsewhere. If the US's percentile of native genetics is low couldn't we simply assume that rather than a special mentality there were special circumstances. First of all they were more fragile (Aztecs weren't as dependent as the Sioux were toward one single and fragile source of income such as the Buffalos). Second they were less numerous. Third their resistance was less successful (Mapuches resisted for centuries while the Sioux were destroyed in a couple of decades). Fourth  the terrain exposed them more (nowhere to hide in the great plaines).
 
No contradictory. If there is no admixture implies genocide, otherwise implies assimilation. There are populations similar to the U.S. that could serve as comparison: Brazil. Even with all the brutality of colonization, the slavery of the Indians, the export of Amerindian slaves to places like Portugal and even Africa, the many massive killings, and the fact that officially there are "only 700.000" Indians in Brazil, the fact is that Brazilian population has a high degree of Amerindian blood assimilated to the general population. Now, the densities of Brazil are equivalent to the U.S., and I expect the same! (Even more, I know the results already, no matter the average American don't have a clue LOL)
 
 
Originally posted by Maharbbal

The only thing that remains then is that the U.S. give more importance to its pre-colombian past, and that forget that ridiculous story of the foundational Mayflower. Americans live there long time before those events.
I see. But what I must say why should we be more interested in the history of the land than the history of the people?
 
The history of the peoples of your land is what matters. And that starts long before the first pilgrim arrived to the eastern coast of the U.S.  It started 20.000 years ago with the crossing of the Bering Strait.
 
 
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 02:27
That sh*t was f*cked up. SRSLY.

In Europe, during sieges, armies used to launch rotting carcasses into the cities to spread pestilence and disease. Sounds pleasant, eh?

In Iraq prior to the occupation, the US carried out biological-warfare by sabotaging water-treatment facilities along the Tigris and the Euphrates, leading to increased outbreaks of cholera and other endemics. The middle ages aren't over yet, it seems.


Edited by Brian J Checco - 08-Nov-2007 at 02:27
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 02:55
Well, that may had happened in the U.S., and that's what we are trying to figure it out: was there a massive genocide of Amerindians in the U.S. or not?
 
It was not what happened in Latin America, though. If you don't know, the Spanish Empire vaccinated the Indians in the earliest opportinuty it got to get the vaccines!
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 03:52
Originally posted by Brian J Checco


In Iraq prior to the occupation, the US carried out biological-warfare by sabotaging water-treatment facilities along the Tigris and the Euphrates, leading to increased outbreaks of cholera and other endemics. The middle ages aren't over yet, it seems.
 
That is rather just another bold claim among thousands, is it not  Brian? Of course, my intent is not to argue with you about the surrounding area suffering from one natural epidemic or another, pre or post invasion! My intent is too first make you think much harder about such a statement, before accepting it as the unvarnished gospel truth, by merely pointing out only a few things too consider, in which... the first of many, but not only conclusive too these: 1.) The severe infrastructural neglect Iraqi's suffered under Saddam's several decade reign. 2.) Then think about Saddam's many ambitions in his surrounding area. 3.) And finally the end result of said ambitions, by the imposition of a 13 year long UN sanction imposed on his regime, which certainly didn't help their heavily screwed up infrastructural probelms very much, as far a Saddam was concerned, in maintaining the stability of his regime. Therefore... the only thing that saved his regime from overthrow til 2003, was the creation of the oil for food bribe scandal, which is still quietly rocking quite a few high ranking members in the UN, as well as the UN itself, for over the past five years now!
 
 My point in this is that... this all had it's internal roots in Iraq, way before the first conspiracy theory among thousands, ever popped up in the western mind in regards to a  US connection when... Mr. Rumsfeld met with Saddam in the early to mid eighties! Perhaps more later. Now is the time for my coffee fix.
 
My regards to you...


Edited by Panther - 08-Nov-2007 at 03:54
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 04:08
Speaking of coffee.
 
Pinguin, i hold you and many other South Americans entirely responsible for enslaving me & my country's mood too such an aromatically appealing and most intoxicating-mood suppressant hot drink ever deviously devised by man! Wink 
 
Without it... my temper surely would have gotten me kicked off of this site very quickly. Perhaps, shortly after my first post. Embarrassed
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 13:04
Originally posted by Panther

Speaking of coffee.
 
Pinguin, i hold you and many other South Americans entirely responsible for enslaving me & my country's mood too such an aromatically appealing and most intoxicating-mood suppressant hot drink ever deviously devised by man! Wink 
 
Without it... my temper surely would have gotten me kicked off of this site very quickly. Perhaps, shortly after my first post. Embarrassed
 
Well, Colombian produce great coffee. However, coffee is not an South American produce but Ethiopian. You better switch to Mate Herb if you want to drink the flavour of South America. After all 40 million Argentineans that preffer mate daily can't be wrong...LOL


Edited by pinguin - 08-Nov-2007 at 13:04
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2007 at 09:08
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Well, Colombian produce great coffee. However, coffee is not an South American produce but Ethiopian. You better switch to Mate Herb if you want to drink the flavour of South America. After all 40 million Argentineans that preffer mate daily can't be wrong...LOL
 
That is true to a certain extent. However, you do suffer by proximity to Columbia, thus... my little playful ribbing at your expense. Big%20smile
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 01:00
Well, I am also a coffee fanatic. I got the custom when I lived in Canada... I remember the "Juan Valdez" coffee adds on TV LOL. believe it or not. Before I preffered tea and mate.
 
However, if you really want to try something good, try coca tea.. Well, I forgot it maybe forbidden in the U.S. Wink


Edited by pinguin - 10-Nov-2007 at 01:02
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 02:28
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, I agree. If the Mayflower is important, then give more relevance to the Thanksgiving day, and in that day remark the heritage of Amerindians in the culture of the United States.
 
Starting from turkey, corn and syrups, and ending in so many things that Americans are not aware, the Indigenous heritage exist in the people of today's United States.
 
If you allow me, Americans wouldn't be what they are without theirs indigenous past and part. Americans would be just another kind of Europeans, and not the original people you are.
 
I know the effect of the Americas; after all I am a Chilean LOL
 
 
That I can agree with.  I think Panther mentioned that the native culture has been getting more notice in schools recently, in grade school we also were taught about the native contribution.  Which was significant to say the least.
 
Just imagine, without native help the mayflowers' occupants may have died of starvation... you would never have known the joy of reading my fascinating posts.ShockedBig%20smile
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 03:44
You bet LOL
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2012 at 08:57
Germ warfare was known since the Middle Ages. The corpses of plague victims were catapulted into besieged castles to spread disease
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2012 at 15:45
And there was a single incident of germ warfare in Pontiac's War, when a British Army major sent blankets that had been used by smallpox victims to the Indians.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2012 at 18:31
I asusme Nick brought this back to life for a variety of reasons. But you men to do realize that the debaters above are long gone..... dead and or banned.... and now inhabit the knock off site of AE.
 
ntl...it remains an interesting topic for rebirth. see the following links for more.
 
 
 
 
A History of Biological Warfare from 300 B.C.E. to the Present
 
 
 
 
 
 
Biological Warfare
 
 
 
 
 
 
The history of biological warfare
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
reference this: ''And there was a single incident of germ warfare in Pontiac's War, when a British Army major sent blankets that had been used by smallpox victims to the Indians.'' 
 
 
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2012 at 19:53
Vlad the Impaler sent lepers and plague victims to the Turkish camps to infect the invading army. All they had to do was bring Vlad the turban of a dead Turk and they would receive a bag of gold
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2012 at 19:55
Mercenary assasins eh.....we still do that today. Target is different is all.
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