Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Best & Worst Commander of Medival Europe(400-1500) Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 05:58 |
Originally posted by ezycompany
I also got to agree with aelgifu aethelred the unready perhaps the worst military leader ive ever heard of
he did the same thing again and again paying off the vikings instead of giving them a fight and show true leadership instead of being a hopeless coward.
|
In spite of my dislike for the man, I do not think his paying of the Danegeld should be seen as cowardice. England was rich and florishing, and could easily afford the amounts asked without damaging the economy, and considering Ethelred could not trust his ealdormen and could not control his army, avoiding pitched battle might actually be one of the smarter things he did...
I would hereby also like to make a case for Charlemagne as a great leader. He lived in a time and age where personality was everything for a leader, and his sucess showed his personalty was very suitable to bind followers with personal loyalty. Leadership in his age was dependant on the so called 'gift-giving', meaning a king had to provide his followers with rewards. In order to get enough rewards (treasure, land) to keep sharing it out, he had to conquer a massive amount of land, and he managed to do so. The fact his empire collapsed after he died is a clear indication of how closely his success was tied up with his personality: no other man could follow in his steps and hold these lands and peoples together. He might not have been a great politican or tacticus, but he was a great leader and warrior.
Edited by Aelfgifu - 31-Jul-2007 at 06:03
|
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
|
|
Justinian
Chieftain
King of Númenor
Joined: 11-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1399
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 00:19 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Originally posted by rider
I believe there are hundreds of such persons of whom 'we can't believe how horrible a leader they were'... |
True but few were given such an opportunity to bugger things up on such an absolutely collosal scale as this would-be Belisarius. His subsequent reign as Emperor is further proof of his sheer ineptitude in anything to do with decision making, leadership and responsibility. |
Exactly, there are numerous examples of military commanders showing utter incompetence but rarely where they are given such enormous resources. Basiliscus was given an army numbering in the area of 100,000 men with a navy of an equally impressive size, and these forces were utterly destroyed. Adding insult to injury was the fact that raising these forces had nearly bankrupted the empire. Comparing his performance to Belisarius shows his underwhelming ability as a leader. Given they lived a hundred years apart but they were both given relatively similar objectives: for Basiliscus come to the aid of the western empire for belisarius reconquer africa then italy. Belisarius was completely successful with an army that at its height had no more than 12,000-15,000 men, usually much smaller, while Basiliscus had one in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 times this.
Edited by Justinian - 01-Aug-2007 at 00:22
|
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
|
|
The_Turks
Janissary
Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 08:17 |
I like Barbarossa. He was a great commander.
Unfortunately, even he couldn't have fought with us :(
|
PROUD TO BE TURKMEN...
|
|
Roberts
Chieftain
aka axeman
Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 22:19 |
Originally posted by The_Turks
I like Barbarossa. He was a great commander.
Unfortunately, even he couldn't have fought with us :(
|
Who is "us" ?
|
|
rider
Tsar
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 02:22 |
The Turks I believe, which is wrong. If I remember well, Frederick took
a city in Asia Minor before going to take a swim. But I may be
confusing him with someone else. Perhaps he failed to take the city...
but I am relatively confident he wanted to take a city.
|
|
Constantine XI
Suspended
Suspended
Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 02:25 |
Originally posted by The_Turks
I like Barbarossa. He was a great commander.
Unfortunately, even he couldn't have fought with us :(
|
Actually he did (I am presuming you are referring to Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa, not the pirate leader of the same name). After being
guaranteed by the Seljuk sultan that he would have safe passage through
Anatolia, the sultan's son attacked him. Frederick handled himself
well, defeated the prince and was continuing his march when he then
drowned.
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 17:26 |
battle of Konya IIRC but Frederick II Stupor Mundi was in my opinion a better commander than Frederick I Barbarossa...
|
|
The_Turks
Janissary
Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 17:48 |
Frederic Barbarossa didn't fought a real army in Anatolia. Turks attacked him with guerilla tactics. At the end he lost most of his soldiers. Unfortunately, he couldn't have found the opportunity to face with Salahaddin Ayyubi...
I said "he couldn't fought with us(Muslims)". Yea, he couldn't fought with Salahaddin. Am I wrong?
I would like to read that war between Barbarossa and Salahaddin :(
|
PROUD TO BE TURKMEN...
|
|
Constantine XI
Suspended
Suspended
Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 18:15 |
Originally posted by The_Turks
Frederic Barbarossa didn't fought a real army in
Anatolia. Turks attacked him with guerilla tactics. At the end he lost
most of his soldiers. Unfortunately, he couldn't have found the
opportunity to face with Salahaddin Ayyubi...
I said "he couldn't fought with us(Muslims)". Yea, he couldn't fought with Salahaddin. Am I wrong?
I would like to read that war between Barbarossa and Salahaddin :(
|
I have read in a range of scholarly books on the Crusades that
Barbarossa's army inflicted decisive defeats on the Turks. The Turks
did try harassing the Germans, but Barbarossa's troops had excellant
discipline and won. They did not lose many troops. The Turks did throw
a real army at him, it was under the command of the heir to the Turkish
sultanate.
Originally posted by wikipedia
The Crusaders passed through Hungary and Serbia
and then entered Byzantine territory, arriving at Constantinople in the
autumn of 1189. From there they pushed on through Anatolia (where they
were victorious in two battles) and Cilician Armenia. The approach of
the immense German army greatly concerned Saladin and the other Muslim leaders, who began to rally troops of their own and prepare to confront Barbarossa's forces. |
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Barbarossa#Life_and_reign
|
|
The_Turks
Janissary
Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 18:28 |
I think Seljuks' heir must be stupid for losing TWO REAL BATTLES in HIS OWN LANDS. Would you like to try to read it from Muslims' sources Constantine XI? I don't think that many of German soldiers arrived to Al-Qudus...
|
PROUD TO BE TURKMEN...
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 18:41 |
after Barbarossas death some German Crusaders returned home, others continued to the Holy Land and fought with the Anglo-French Crusaders who came by sea. the German Crusade didn't suffered significant losses in Anatolia. those are facts...
|
|
Constantine XI
Suspended
Suspended
Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 19:00 |
Originally posted by The_Turks
I think Seljuks' heir must be stupid for losing TWO REAL BATTLES in HIS OWN LANDS. Would
you like to try to read it from Muslims' sources Constantine XI? I
don't think that many of German soldiers arrived to Al-Qudus... |
The Seljuk heir wasn't necessarily stupid, he was just facing a well
led, well disciplined, large army. That's enough to defeat many armies.
As Temujin stated, once Barbarossa died most of the men returned home.
Barbarossa was an inspirational leader for them, but his successor did
not have the same powerful personality required to keep the army
together and marching toward Outremer.
|
|
Patch
Samurai
Joined: 19-Apr-2006
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 119
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 19:10 |
Henry V of England, beat the French at Agincourt despite being outnumbered by between 3 and 6 to 1 and his army starving and suffering from diahrea.
|
|
The_Turks
Janissary
Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 05:50 |
If german soldiers were even Robocops they would lose thousands of soldiers in TWO battles. Can you give me some information about those battles Constantine? or you can start a new thread and share ur knowledge...
History = Lies vs Lies. Choose one and believe
|
PROUD TO BE TURKMEN...
|
|
Constantine XI
Suspended
Suspended
Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 07:00 |
The_Turks, I'm sure the Germans did lose some troops (as armies do when
they lose battles). But so far both myself and Temujin have
corroborating accounts that the Germans won both battles very soundly,
I provided a wikipedia link which backs this up. Most of my studies of
the Crusades were done when I was about 16, so 5 years ago. But back
then I read a number of scholarly books which all agreed the Germans
won the battles and without it seriously weakening their army.
|
|
kasper
Pretorian
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Location: Bouvet Island
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 01:46 |
Originally posted by rider
Even the entire of Europe is a land too big to cover in such question... There were several talented generals, Belisarius, Saladin and Charlemagne to name a few. There were also hundreds of lousy idiotic ones. I'd choose Belisarius as the best and Philippe VI of France as the lousiest.
|
Philippe VI wasn't a terrible commander. The only time Philippe was the commander of a major battle would have been at Crecy, and you can't judge the skill of a commander by a single battle. Even with his loss at Crecy, he still was a competent commander at other battles. One example was his successful use of attrition during the relief of Tournai, which resulted in Edward returning to England. Before Crecy, Edward's success in France was far from certain due partly to the successful commanding shown by Philippe. Another important point to remember is that Philippe was fighting one of the greatest kings in the history of England.
|
|
Athanasios
Colonel
Joined: 23-Jan-2007
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 546
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 22:07 |
Can't Tamerlane be considered as a European commander(geographically) since he conquered territories which belonged earlier to european civilizations?
|
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 09:48 |
Frederick Barbarossa was a splendid leader, but probably does not deserve the title of the best.
Barbarossa was a little bit similar to Richard I Lionheart. He has huge experience of waging, fighting and conducting a war. His numerous campaigns in Italy, and experience as a Crusader of II crusade, made him the hope of Kingdom of Jerusalem after Hattin.
His son was also a very good leader, yet probably far inferior in terms of military knowledge.
It's interesting that "most" Germans retreated to the Empire after his death instead of continuing on with his son Frederick of Swabia and the Duke of Austria, Leopold. This shows how charismatic and important he was.
But personally I believe that Subedei is the best of all. The "Dog of War" as he was called fought in all possible conditions, from deserts to mountains yet still he always managed to defeat a number of enemies.
|
|
Ponce de Leon
Caliph
Lonce De Peon
Joined: 11-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2967
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 19:13 |
John II of Aragon. He was a very ambitious king and was the father of Fernando the Catholic!
Edited by Ponce de Leon - 16-Sep-2007 at 19:13
|
|