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WWII Blunders

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    Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 01:14
Deadkenny, I must disagree with the Pearl Harbor thing. It was not a strategic blunder at all, but probably the best decision the Japanese made in the entire war. The fact is that Pearl Harbor was a side show, even on Dec 7 1941, since the main effort (strategically) was the offensives in SE Asia, the purpose of the Pearl Harbor assualt was to knock the US PacFlt out of the battle in SE Asia, and in that it succeeded. The US would have gone to war over an attack in SE Asia, with or without Pearl Harbor.
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 10:10
Originally posted by Sparten

Deadkenny, I must disagree with the Pearl Harbor thing. It was not a strategic blunder at all, but probably the best decision the Japanese made in the entire war. The fact is that Pearl Harbor was a side show, even on Dec 7 1941, since the main effort (strategically) was the offensives in SE Asia, the purpose of the Pearl Harbor assualt was to knock the US PacFlt out of the battle in SE Asia, and in that it succeeded. The US would have gone to war over an attack in SE Asia, with or without Pearl Harbor.


Clearly the US would have gone to war if their forces in the Philippines had been attacked.  However, if the Japanese had bypassed them and restricted themselves to attacking British, Australian and Dutch territory, that's not so obvious.  However, even if the US had become 'involved' as a result of these attacks, the key point is that the Japanese strategy of 'exhausting' the Americans might have had a chance of succeeding.  With the attack on Pearl, it had practically no chance.  That was my key point, the Japanese brought the Americans into the war directly and fully without having any realistic strategy for 'winning' the war they had started.  In a country such as the US, public opinion actually matters a great deal.  Without any direct attack on American forces, there would be a lot of questioning of American involvement inside the US itself.  Further, it would be increasingly difficult to maintain a large effort against Japan, in the face of heavy losses, given the nature of that campaign.  Japan could and probably would characterize it as a campaign to return Asian lands to European colonial powers, and in the scenario being describe that may well have resonated to some extent in the US.  FDR very much wanted the US involved in the war against Germany, however, his hands were tied by the large and powerful anti-war movements.  Pearl Harbour effectively silenced the 'anti-war' groups.  I don't see that a Japanese 'liberation' of the Dutch East Indies or British SE Asia would have had the same impact.
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 01:49
I have to agree with deadkenny on the pearl harbor issue.  The U.S. was incredibly isolationist in outlook.  Remember that FDR had to aid the british secretly for fear of provoking the population.  It's rather amusing to read of how he went about this, I almost laughed out loud when I came across the transportation of supplies to britain and the slow extension of the escorts farther and farther out to sea.  This was especially true for the midwest, Charles Lindbergh was the posterboy for the isolationists if I'm not mistaken.  Also the war against the japanese became almost similar to the eastern front.  The americans had the utmost empathy for the japanese AFTER pearl harbor.  My grandpa still talks of the japs and certainly doesn't like them, there are a lot of other veterans who still haven't forgiven the japanese for the war. 
 
The most important point is that the japanese had lost the war the minute they bombed pearl harbor, unless its just an exaggeration I believe there is a famous japanese admiral who was wiser than most when he said, (to paraphrase) the japanese have done nothing but to awakened a sleeping giant... Who happened to be very angry and wanted revenge. 
 
Deadkenny's point about the americans staying out of the war if the phillipines were not attacked is valid.  Like I said pearl harbor basically galvanized the nation to destroy the evil nation of the rising sun.  If the japanese had not gone after the U.S. in such a provoking way they would have had a much better chance of attaining a reasonable peace;  I guess it makes sense why they did what they did since the japanese were by far and away the most die hard of combatants in the war and didn't want to surrender at all.  I should point out that the attack on pearl harbor was a brilliant tactical manuver, even if its strategical implications were not as positive.


Edited by Justinian - 02-Sep-2007 at 01:57
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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  Quote YohjiArmstrong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 16:19
Originally posted by Justinian

  My grandpa still talks of the japs and certainly doesn't like them, there are a lot of other veterans who still haven't forgiven the japanese for the war.


Thats true for many British and Commonwealth servicemen too, including my grandfather, grandpa and "Uncle" Max. I think the antipathy had more to do with Japan's disgraceful way of waging war (namely the racism, brutality and wholesale massacre of PoW's and civilians).

Having been reading a book on Dunkirk I have to say the general state of the French High Command was disgraceful. The complete lack of nerve, communications and will meant that the one chance thrown to the allies was thrown away. By chance I mean the attack at Arras which was originally suppossed to be supported by a large French counter-attack. If pulled off the results would have been devastating as the panzers were too far from their infantry. It wasn't till the next day that infantry got anywhere near the place. I doubt the whole campaign would have been won but at least the campaign would still have been viable, if not a certainty.

A pair of blunders can be found with the US treatment of Japan. Forcing Britain to abandon her treaty with Japan in 1922 left her with only one camp to join (in the same way that Stalin joined the Axis because of Britain adn France's ludicrous statements about Poland). The next blunder was the embargo that forced Japan to attack S.E. Asia. With the embargo in place it was their only choice to gain the materials and resources they needed.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 04:20
I agree with Justinian and deadkenny in that without an attack on the Philippines, FDR would've had a tougher time getting the public to go to war with enthusiasm. However, The Japanese just saw alot of allied white guys and figured they had to attack all of them because they were all against them.
 
Tactically the Pearl Harbour assault could've been much more effective. No the much hyped "3rd wave" is not the answer. Nagumo made the right choice because the wave would've sufferred horrendous casualties and Japan could never afford losing skilled airmen. Instead, when the American fleet chased the Japanese away, the Japanese could've turned around with their 6 aircraft carriers and annihilated it, no Midway required.
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