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Battle at Kosovo Polje/Kosovo Field; 1389

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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Battle at Kosovo Polje/Kosovo Field; 1389
    Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 16:41
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by Batu

hey all you people from Crotia,Serbia.none of you saved Europe.Ottoman Empire wasnt even an empire those times :)  She was just a Beglik state.who saved Europe was probably Austrians,Polish,HRE.Why do you use the word "saved" ? Ottomans didnt steal,didnt burn didnt done the things that steppe empires do.They are not Mongols ok ?


The Ottoman Empire was an Empire before it conquered any of the Serbo-Croat states.
 
Bosnian wasn't a Serbo-Croat state
 


You know what I mean - Serbo-Croatian language. a.k.a. the South Slavic diasystem. Tell me frankly, what term can be used to apply for all our lands, other than "Serbo-Croat" (although I, of course, understand why and probably many others might not like it).
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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  Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 14:47
Originally posted by Yugoslav

Originally posted by Larus

[QUOTE/]
The Ottoman Empire was an Empire before it conquered any of the Serbo-Croat states.

No, they were not. During the battle of Marica/Maritsa, local Serbian and some Bulgarian forces outnumbered Turks, but failed miserably, mostly due to the brilliance of Sahin Pasha. At that time Ottomans were truly just a Beglik and could not be termed an "Empire".

Bulgarians fought at Maritsa?

And that happened three quarters of a century before the first state was conquered.

* 1453: conquers Byzantium and becomes an Empire
* 1459: conquest of Serbia
* 1463: conquest of Bosnia, abolished in the 1470s
* 1481: conquest of Herzegovina
* 1493: destruction of Croatia
* 1499: conquest of Montenegro; abolished

[/QUOTE]
Yes, a number of Bulgarian troops fought at Maritza, not nearly numbering as much as Serbian forces, but they were present at Maritza.
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  Quote sultanmurad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 01:41
decisive turkish victory
we conquered you watch
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 02:01
Hmm. are you serious? I mean, werent serbs win war?
 
should you realy waste my one minute with such unnecessary knowledge..
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 22:02
My my what a jewel of a thread. I feel like Timur atop a horse and reaching India. :x
 
Originally posted by konstantinius

Originally posted by Josip

Originally posted by miki015

Our proverb say : "What belong to other we dont want,but what belong to us we will not gave to others!"


Lies, so typical of a Serb. Centuries of your imperialism attempts speak otherwise. In last 15yrs alone, you have waged wars and had conflicts with most of your neighbours.

Not only that, but you're also ungrateful. When Turks conquered Serbia and nearby regions, you fled to Croatia, and populated the lands which bordered with Ottomans. Instead of saying thanks, few centuries later, you started saying that was always your land and it should belong to you, and then you invaded us. Disgusting.

And please spare us the nationalistic propaganda in this thread, no myth of yours will override historical facts. Your nation is the only one i know of in the whole world, which celebrates a lost battle as a national holiday.

but,with faith in God,that Holy warriors and Martyrios block the way and protect the Europe...


Croatia protected Europe 20x better than Serbia did, so what's your point? Serbia got thrashed and conquered, while Croatia resisted and was doing the contribution for centuries, even being called by Pope "antemurale christianis", the bulwark of christianity. Of course, tactics used were mostly asymetric, such as these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskok

Originally posted by Bulldog

I really cannot believe what I have just read, is this what is taught in Serbia about this war?


Yes. And about many other things. Welcome to Balkans. This is the credo: "Repeat something 100x, and it will become the truth."

Originally posted by es_bih

You obviously are a Serbian nationalist


How long did it took you to figger that out? :)))) Just look at how he presents the arguments: "it was 2v1, we pwnd Turks, and nothing can be known of this battle that says something bad about us... whooops someone else has historical data? I deny!" :)


Josip, you're accusing others of nationalism yet you carry the same vile and detestable bug in you: you just hate anything that is Serb, which is not unusual for a Croat, except that you can't see your own bias.
"Croatia protected Europe 20x better than Serbia did so what's your point?" Croatia protected Europe from whom? The Ottomans? Are you serious? Where were you at siege of Constantinople? That's where the bulwark was for hundreds of years, stemming the Arab and Ottoman tides so you today can speak ItalianTongue I'm not defending Serbia here but can you mention the battles the Croatians fought against the Ottomans? What were their losses? What year did they take place? After the blood Greeks,  Albanians, Bulgarians, and Serbs shed to stem the Ottoman tide it is ridiculous  to have a Croatian  claim that they did the most on that matter. Even Moldavians did more in that respect.
"Antemurale christianis?" Who? Croatia? Hah!! This is coming from the institution that sat back and watched Eastern Christendom get swallowed up little by little by the "infidel" and did NOTHING to assist (not to mention the 4th Crusade and the pillage of the Polis). I'm too polite to tell you what you can do with the words of the heretical Patriarch of RomeTongue The only reason Croatia did not fall under the Ottoman sway is not because they resisted but because geographically it is located further West, too close to to Italy and Austria and from very early on it came under the protection of powerful hegemones, first the heretical Roman Patriarch, then the Venetians, and finally the Habsburgs (helloooo, WW II, Ustashe, FASCISM, or have we "conveniently" forgotten about FASCISM--Croatia is the ONLY Balkan State that can be characterized as FASCIST). You're too lucky to have been close to your Western European protectors throughout your History and thus reap undue benefits so don't get too cocky about it.
What we don't need on this forum are both Serb nationalism AND Croatian myth-building based on WEAK MEMORY of recent History.


"Better the Sultan's turban than  the cardinal's hat", any ol' time
 
Even the Moldavians did more? Pish posh I feel a tad bit insulted. Cry Stefan Cel Mare of Moldova fought and defeated the Golden Horde, the Poles, the Hungarians and some of the greatest defeats handed to the Turks were given by him. Basically he was 3 skanderbegs and a half. LOL Now I may be an Indian beating my own drum here, but only because I want to stay in tune with all the other drums. Big%20smile
 
The rest I pretty much agree with. I find it really strange that a Croatian would find so much pride and diminish the Serb efforts against the Turks in the same breath. It falls on the same level of what a Bulgarian once told me, that Bulgaria saved europe from the Ottomans because of the resistance groups in the conquored Bulgaria. My hat goes off to the Bulgarians but what he had told me was to say the least an over statement, like the Croatian tone taken here in this thread.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 22:24
Who are you to talk mister tonedeaf?LOL
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 22:50
Originally posted by Seko

Who are you to talk mister tonedeaf?LOL
 
"Little glass shard is laughing at a cracked vase."
 
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Originally posted by Perun

You all went to far in analyzing The Battle of Kosovo. All of Balkanian nations tried to stop Ottoman Turks not "defending Christianity" like was proposed from Vatican, but their own homes. Bosnian king Stjepan Tomasevic begged for help, but none of Western Christian powers helped him.
It seems that Ottoman empire at that time was strong enough to conquer eastern Balkans and huge parts of Hungary and Croatia. Ottoman troups (akinji's) often crossed Croatian and Slovenian border. Battle of Vienna 1683. remarked start of the Empires stagnation.
 
About Kosovo Battle 1389.; It is always the same,it all ends with the nationalism. The fact is that destiny of the Balkans was written on Maritsa in 1371. Kosovo 1389. was just an epilogue, when Balkanian nations tried their best to stop the invaders. Serbian nationalism used a Kosovo myth as a base for its "vengeful campaigns".
But the real truth is that Turkish historians never describe this battle as important one. One of the proposed possibilities for sultan Murat's death is that Obilic killed him with the help of Murat's son Bayezid, who wanted to secure his right to throne (because of his brothers Savci, Yakub and Ibrahim).
 
I think that we in Balkans should be more realistic about our "great histories", our "powerful kingdoms" and such mythological theories...
What an interesting vantage point you have to make such a comment. A percieved arguementive advantage rarely seen. But to get to the point. Let's not belittle the affects of 1389. The death of Murat stagnated the advance of the Ottoman Empire and then there is Timur. Concerning "vengeful campaigns" you don't want to go down that road friend.
What is your source that says Murat's son helped Obilic to kill him? This I am curious about.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Seko

Who are you to talk mister tonedeaf?LOL


The wise sage of the BalkansOuch
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 00:24
Insightful comments completely relevant to the thread from both an administrator and a moderator. I am sure it will serve to expand our understanding of the topic.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 00:37
We are here but to serve Embarrassed
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 00:44
I have no interest in further degrading the relevance of the topic with you friend. Anyway...
 
 
I'm not sure but I do not think it has been mentioned that Mircea the Old of "Wallachia" sent Romanian cavalry to aid the Lazar in his battle against Murat. Also a Serb friend told me that one of Obilic's friends/bodyguards was of similar origin and both fought to Murat to kill him.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 03:04
There is way too much hear say on Obilic and Murat , and the whole incident - more so than fact unfortunately.

As far as Wallachians... did not know that...I am well aware of the various slavic principalities that all sent various sizes, a substantial force under some leading Bosnian noblemen sent by King Tvrtko (who coincidentally talso wrote to the pope of his victory there at the battle)... and I believe some Albanian contigents and Hungarian. Makes sense for the Wallachians to join in, did not know that they did. A lot of the Serbian princes joined in the Ottoman side, too as vassals.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 05:59
Yes the Ottoman forces usually like to absorb a bit of the local populace. Some more willing to do so then others.
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