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Young Turks, disappeared into Nowhere
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Kapikulu View Drop Down
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Young Turks, disappeared into Nowhere
    Posted: 15-May-2007 at 20:10
Originally posted by Anton

.
 
I wouldn't agree in your case. At least inter-marriage of Turkish man and Greek/Armenian/other christian woman were rather common in Ottoman Empire. Unless you believe in those sort of stories about women preffered to kill themseves but not to marry the conqueror. Wink
 
Of course it wasn't non-existent, but when you put it to ratios, it was in fact not that much common between the folk contrary to Sultans' haremsWink
 


Edited by Kapikulu - 16-May-2007 at 14:54
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 02:50
You don't probably get the irony...In any case, you pinpoint the minor elements of my words and ignore the actual argument for some reason.These are asome basic knowledge about Turkish and world history you should have known by now, if you are discussing about these issues.
I am not refusing immigration of Turks, but I think It  is a little exgerated.. Specially compared with anatolian older population..
 
I don't get your reasoning...You say, reason is not marriages, but the it shall be assimilation..There hasn't been such a major "assimilation" in any part of the Ottoman Empire over its history. Individual inter-marriages happening, in fact, cannot be called assimilation...So, just because a son of a Muslim father and Christian mother is Muslim, that doesn't mean that son or wife is assimilated!
 
Wrong asimilations happened. And asimilation was not personal. Villages totally converted to islam. They changed their religion but they cannot change their genetic illness and cultures. So that is the reason why our culture is near to their neighbors instead of central asian Turks.
 
By the way, When I am talking about asimilation, It is a peaciful asimilation.(Changing religion.) But Turkification of anatolia after Turkey republic is not so much peaciful..
Muslims are around, you can see them if you rise your headWinkOf course all the muslims were not Turks, but majorly it was the Turks, Kurds, Arabs etc. Christian population of Anatolia mostly kept its religious and ethnical identity.
 
Realy? Infact there is more muslim georgians than christian georgians.(It is funny they were called as christian nation.)
 
So why should be It different for greeks and armenian? Specially, when both were ruled by ottomans longer than georgians..
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 16-May-2007 at 02:56
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2007 at 10:28
 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 
Feroz Ahmad, the most distinguished historian on the Young Turks internationally IMO
 
Memoriers of jemal and Huseyin Cahit pashas, who were the top names in the commitee of Union and Progress.
I'm not sure how to check them.
 
What do you mean by the 1877-78 war?
 
 
you can check Feroz Ahmad's book about  Committee of Union and Progress pArty 1909-1918
Thanks, but at 90 it will have to wait a while Unhappy. I'm ready to take your word on this, but in particular I'd like to know whether the British rejection of the alliance was by the Conservative government of 1900-05 or the Liberal one that followed. Gladstone was dead by then, but I would have hazarded a guess that the Conservatives - the imperialist party - were still more anti-Russian and the Liberals less so.
 
The Conservatives had signed the alliances with Japan and France, but it wasn't until the Liberals were in power that the Triple Entente which included Russia was signed.
 
unfortunately the other two resources I refered are only in Turkish..
 
I mean with the conclusion of  Turco-Rus war of 1877-78, Britain also changed its policy towards the Ottomans, as it was seen that the end of the Ottomans was soon.
But Britain was still supportive of the Ottomans in reducing at Berlin the gains granted to Russia by the Treaty of San Stefano, surely?
 
Britain even secretly supported the  Austro-Hungarian take over of Bosnia, which pissed off the Sultan very much. After that Sultan Abdulhamid never trusted the British again. 
You mean the annexation in 1908? That was originally supposed to be a deal between Austria and Russia, which Britain would always have opposed, since part of the deal was Austrian support for allowing Russian warships to pass through the Dardanelles. 
Austria let Russia down with a straightforward annexation, which infuriated Serbia, a Russian client state, and eventually caused a Russian loss of face which hardened some of the attitudes that were leading up to the World War. So by supporting (or at least not opposing) the annexation, Britain in the end was opposing Russia and Turkey.
And incidentally Germany backed Austria on the annexation much more strongly than Britain did.
Actually it's very difficult to sort it all out.
This again was under the Liberal government.
 
 
 
Again, I would like to argue that the Young Turks were not neceassarily German lovers. They were just NOT given any other option but to ally with Germans. The biggest reason was the fear felt profoundly against Russia
I would agree that fear of Russia was dominant. It is however something of an anomaly that Britain at this time was allied with Russia.
 
As may be obvious, I'm interested here in the internal British politics involved, in particular the differing attitudes of the political parties. Maybe the result of the 1905 election had more influence on events than I'd ever thought. (Usually the effects on domestic policy, which were considerable, are what are concentrated one.)


Edited by gcle2003 - 16-May-2007 at 10:29
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The_Turks View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 15:40

Young Turk movement?

 
There are two different meaning of this: Reformism and Pan-Turkism. Which one is that your talking about?
 
Both of those ideologies are still alive in Turkey now but, today's Pan-Turkists are not reformists as their grandfathers. And reformist Turks are not Pan-Turkists. Most of Pan-Turkists(supporters of MHP and other nationalist groups) have generally conservative ideas. However, reformists are sympathizers of European Union.  
 
PROUD TO BE TURKMEN...

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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 16:43
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

The Traditional Turkish-French alliance ended with Napoleon I's invasion of Egypt. In the first decade of 1800s Napoleon I and The Russian Tsar Alexander I were actually discussing about projects concerning the partition of the Ottoman State at Tilsit.


while i wouldn't doubt that Napoleon made deals with Alexander I over the Ottoman Empire considdering his personality, Russia and the Ottomans were at war since 1806 until 1812. Napoleon sent his general Sebastiani as ambassador to Konstantinyye to convince the Ottomans to go to war with Russia to distract Russian forces there while Napoleon himself could deal with Prussia and their Russian allies in Poland. so this was in fact France's last alliance with the Ottomans.
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