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    Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 19:30
This century, the war has been revolutionized till a point that you even cant say its a war anymore. Somebody should invent a new word for the thing we see today in most countries, because Its not even close to the war that Alexander the Great, Napoleon or Djingis Khan fought. Today, the enemy will exterminate the commander and whole divisions from miles away, and the worst thing is that you dont even see that coming. I mean its so much things, artillery that can be launched from kilometres away, UAV that can see everything that you are doing and all your plans, missiles that will take out any form of bunker and bomb planes that bombs you to death. So I have two questions:
Does a country who dont have air superiority, or any radar system, and chance against a country who has it? For example, we can have Operation Iraqi Freedom as an exemple. America had a technical superiority against a Iraq that didnt, and we all saw the result. Will the war today and in the future be won by the country that are technically superior or can tactic and brain outsmart it?
 
an other example: Both Soviet and USA fought Afghanistan and Vietnam, who both were much more inferior, but the still managed to not loose. How did they managed? Was it the media and newspapers that made them loose or was it a military loss?
  
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Leonidas View Drop Down
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2007 at 00:00
Originally posted by Deioces

This century, the war has been revolutionized till a point that you even cant say its a war anymore. Somebody should invent a new word for the thing we see today in most countries, because Its not even close to the war that Alexander the Great, Napoleon or Djingis Khan fought. Today, the enemy will exterminate the commander and whole divisions from miles away, and the worst thing is that you dont even see that coming. I mean its so much things, artillery that can be launched from kilometres away, UAV that can see everything that you are doing and all your plans, missiles that will take out any form of bunker and bomb planes that bombs you to death. So I have two questions:
Does a country who dont have air superiority, or any radar system, and chance against a country who has it? For example, we can have Operation Iraqi Freedom as an exemple. America had a technical superiority against a Iraq that didnt, and we all saw the result. Will the war today and in the future be won by the country that are technically superior or can tactic and brain outsmart it?
 
an other example: Both Soviet and USA fought Afghanistan and Vietnam, who both were much more inferior, but the still managed to not loose. How did they managed? Was it the media and newspapers that made them loose or was it a military loss?
  
Well Iraq was never really won. They never won over the whole population and they are paying dearly for that now. Just like the Afghanistan and Vietnam examples, technology gives you an advantage but cant deliver you a complete victory. One can define victory in a limited sense like winning battles or in a complete sense like winning wars and occupying. Your examples are about occupying so ill take it in a complete sense

 For that you have control the territory, *read* soldiers on the ground, and a propaganda victory where everyone including the occupied thinks your doing the right thing and are the good guys.

 One thing that technology hasn't replaced yet, is the need to have soldiers on the ground. The US, France or any advanced military can destroy most others navy, heavy army and airforces but after that, has to occupy the territory in order to gain complete control. This depends on their objectives but lets say like in the above examples they want this complete victory and total control. Once they're on the ground, in the cities and patrolling the countryside the tech advantage is greatly reduced. Resistance can start just by shooting and ambushing occupying soldiers. All this needs is small arms, booby traps and to become really effective, good organization and co-ordination with decent leadership. Technology being somewhat less important.

The other thing that technology cant win is the propaganda war, if you cant win over the population resistance will always be a problem.  But this type of high ground is very hard next to impossible to gain. How can one occupy another country and  convincing them its for their good!







Edited by Leonidas - 14-Apr-2007 at 00:10
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2007 at 02:00
Originally posted by Leonidas

How can one occupy another country and  convincing them its for their good!


 
Well, Iraqi people fell for it in the beginning of war.
     
   
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 09:27
Originally posted by Deioces

Does a country who dont have air superiority, or any radar system, and chance against a country who has it? 
If the opposing country has absolutely no technology, it will be impossible for them to win a conventional war.  If they have some technology and this technology is used with well trained forces,  intelligent leadership, and numbers, they can win under special circumstances.  
 
When North Korea invaded of South Korea in the 1950s. The USA had a huge technological advantage over the North Koreans, yet they almost lost the war.   Some of the special circumstances that allowed the North Koreans to do so well were...
     - North Koreans were very well trained and led by capable officers
     - Opposing technology army was  outnumbered and poorly motivated
     - Low technology army studied ways to defeat  / mitigate enemy's technology. 
      -Low technology forces then launched a very fast moving campaign designed to defeat the enemy before  reinforcements with even more technology can arrive.  The lack of 3,000 heavy trucks was all that prevented the North Koreans from winning.
 
Today,  there are countries that have the training, leadership and technology level to defeat a technological super power in a conventional war under special circumstances (a little luck will always kelp as well).  Some of these countries are India, China, and Pakistan.   
 
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Leonidas

How can one occupy another country and  convincing them its for their good!
Well, Iraqi people fell for it in the beginning of war.
The poor widsom of the initial invasion aside, the contuing occuaption of Iraq is benefiting the Iraqi nation as a whole.  A study of the news reports here       http:// icasualties.org/oif/  indicates that Iraqis are responsible for almost all Iraqi civilian deaths in Iraq.
 
Any US pull out now will likely lead to the collapse of the already weak Iraqi government.  This will result in ethnic cleansing  /  mass atrocities on a genocidal scale.  


Edited by Cryptic - 12-May-2007 at 10:00
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  Quote Rhavas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2007 at 18:53
What you said is completely untrue Cryptic. In the Beginning of the Korean war there were no U.S. Troops in South Korea. The North Koreans had T-34/85 tanks while the South Koreans had 0 tanks. The south koreans also had 0 anti-tank weapons and little artillery. The South Koreans had to employ essentially suicide troops with bombs to try and immobilize the Tanks. The only unit of Americans initially was Task Force Smith, which was rushed over from Japan with only 5 AT rounds per gun, no AT mines, a general lack of training and weapons. Even then they knocked out several tanks before being overrun. By the time the regular U.S. Forces arrived , they and the remaining south korean forces held them at the Pusan Perimeter. Even then the Sherman Tanks employed were not a match for the T-34/85s. The North Korean Army was then almost completely wiped out by the landings at Incheon and the Subsequent offensive North. The North Korean Army, at least initially was MUCH better equiped than their adversaries.
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  Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2007 at 06:33
With regards to Iraq, Vietnam and Afghanistan the answer is simple.
 
You will never win a war against people who feel they are fighting for their national identity.
 
The current situation in Iraq is a re-run of the situation that the British got themselves into in Iraq after WW1.
 
Yet again, the nationalistic resistance of the Iraqi people, is termed 'Saddam Loyalists' or 'Terrorists'. Sadly this wasnt true in 1920 and isnt true now. Iraqi people, while happy to welcome those who rid them off an oppresor, quickly sour towards their saviours if they dont leave quickly enough. Iraqi nationalism runs deep and has done for centuries. I see no reason why that would change.
 
Sadly with these wars of national identity, the 'soldiers' are often in civilian garb, have the popular support of the local people and a view that they are trying to liberate their homeland from an invader. A very strong set of ideals that is a major hinderance to an occupying force. As is usual in these wars, the population on the whole tend to dislike the occupying forces, no matter how spoon-fed they are, and only certain individuals prosper causing further resentment.
 
These 'Modern' wars are not modern. They are the same wars that have gone on for centuries as one people try to secure their independance/freedom/political will or whatever from an invader/occupier regardless on that nations efforts to 'make things better'.
 
Add in the religious differences, cultural differences and you have a situation that is very difficult for a western army to handle. Such wars, always end in disaster for the invader.
 
To fight for your country is one thing... But to fight for your home, your family or even your national and religious identity, is a very strong motive to fight and to fight hard.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2007 at 17:58
Originally posted by Rhavas

Even then the Sherman Tanks employed were not a match for the T-34/85s. The North Korean Army was then almost completely wiped out by the landings at Incheon and the Subsequent offensive North. The North Korean Army, at least initially was MUCH better equiped than their adversaries.
Initially, yes (Task Force Smith).  Though eventually, the North Koreans did collapse at the Pusan Perimeter, both the North Koreans and the Chinese were able compensate for a certain amount of time against U.S. M-47 Tanks, massed artillery, total air supereority (ground support), massed halftracks and the wide spread availability of radios and truck transport.
 
In short, the Chinese and North Koreans were very tough opponents who fought well and adapted even after large amounts of new U.S. equipment arrived.  


Edited by Cryptic - 21-May-2007 at 18:05
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