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The modern Pakistani military
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Cryptic View Drop Down
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The modern Pakistani military
    Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 10:25
Originally posted by Sparten

 
So Cryptics link is being disingenous.  The 50 or so Israeli tanks ehich Hizb knocked out too no further part in the campaign. The fact that most of them were later retrived and repaired 6 months later is sort of irrelevent.  
 
The article mentions that 18 Israeli tanks as being "knocked out" (evidently damaged beyond easy repair).  Of these 18, two were "destroyed" (damged beyond all repair).  This is far less than 50.   
 
Originally posted by Sparten

If this was a battle against a real army rather than a militia those tanks would have been history. 
Yes a number of those tanks would have been lost.  But others still  could have been recovered, even against an army type enemy.    Also....   You have a good point about what is technically "repairable" and what is destroyed (for all practical purposes.
 
We must also consider whether the conflcit is hi or low tempo.   In a low tempo conflict, heavily damaged tanks are repaired 100%.  There is no pressure for speed so repairs can take weeks or months.   In a hi tempo conflict, many of these same tanks would be returned to combat in days, even if not at quite 100%.
 
So if they really had to, the Israelis could have repaired a certain number of those "knocked out for the campaign" tanks and returned them to combat in days, not months.   Thus a low intensity "knock out" does not always mean "destroyed" for that particular campaign.


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Feb-2007 at 10:41
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 10:35
The 50 number comes from israeli sources.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 10:46
Originally posted by Sparten

The 50 number comes from israeli sources.
And that number probably includes those
A- destroyed by any definition (2)
B-"knocked out", but repairable (16). 
C-those damaged and requiring some kind of repair (32)
 
My guess is that in a hi intensity conflict, most of those in category "C" and a certain number of category "B" would have been returned to combat in days or even hours.  Some of category "C" might not have even been sent for repair.


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Feb-2007 at 12:20
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:36
I believe Hizbollah had enough Iranian and Russian RPG's in order to shoot even 100 of Merkavas and even more, u know I thought why they dont glue them  (RPG's) each other and use as an anti aircraft missles?

Edited by Kerimoglu - 26-Feb-2007 at 14:39
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 16:50
Is Pakistan's Al-Khalid MBT better than the Arjun MBT.
 
Arjun MBT:
 
 
Edit: photo added.


Edited by Hellios - 05-Mar-2007 at 16:51
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Posts: 232 		  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 17:41
Originally posted by Sparten

The 50 number comes from israeli sources.
 
I suspect that in time the truth will come out.  I also suspect that the truth will reveal that once again Anti Tank weapons have NOT been as successful as the media and other sources initially claimed.  It happened in the 1973 Arab Israeli war when the "Sagger" missile rendered the tank obselete, except that in reality the spectaculaly successful Sagger was a spectacular failure with Israeli Centurion tanks surviving multiple hits by Sagger and continuing to fight.   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 00:07
The sagger in 1973 was successful because of Israeli stupidty. The initial counterattack in the Sinai cost how many (100 tanks).
 
As for the Arjun, well that tanks not even in service.
 
Some picture of the Al-Khalid in service,
 
With the Guides
 
 
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 11:11
Sparten, thanks for your answer about the Arjun & for the interesting link.
 
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 18:18
Cobras from Multan base near the Chenab river.
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 00:43
Yes from II Corps. One of our three "strike" corps.
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Posts: 62 		  Quote Giordano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 10:31
I wonder that this topic is about Pakistani military or a new topic about what  the best weapons against to main battle tank is?And Pakistani military consisted only khalid tanks?
Dead


Ex-UK class type 21 frigates

Third vessel is US navy Perry class frigate and she isn't belong to Pakistani navy.


Edited by Giordano - 29-Mar-2007 at 10:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 13:50
The thread was originally about the Khalid tank. Its name has been changed.
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Posts: 62 		  Quote Giordano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:23
Thank you for replying Embarrassed
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 13:25
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Zagros

Well, IMO modern infantry AT weapons have in turn made tanks obsolete in the same way as machine guns vs cavalry, we just need (and hopefully won't get) another WW1 type scenario to prove it.

 

To quote a poster from another forum... "Lots of things can kill an infantrymen, yet they are not becoming obsolete".   The same is true with tanks.   Tank armour, hitting power and speed has kept up with mdoern ATGMS

 

Pikeshot,  Yes air supereority is the best tank killer, but Pakistan won't have air supereority over India.  Thats why Pakistan needs heavy tanks

 

Nobody has stopped a well trained, modern heavy armoured Brigade operating with air parity with only anti tank weapons and air support.   (When I say a Brigade, I mean a complete Armoured Brigade backed up by proportional modern artillery, MRLS systems, air support and air defense etc)

 

Once a Complete Armoured Brigade starts rolling in tank friendly terrain, the opponent had better have.....

    - Total Air Dominance  or

    - An equally well trained, equipped and supported heavy tank force or

    - The English ChannelWink

 

 

 

 

 


No offence, but that is a null comparison. Infantry perform a completely different role to tanks, whereas cavalry perform a very similar one, (i.e.) to punch a hole through enemy lines.

I am getting tired of usig this example myself, but I feel that it is a very relevant one to this discussion: IDF's Merkava Tanks during the Hez. - IDF war over the summer were the source of the vast majority of Israel's fatal casualties - they were impotent against the modern ATGMs of Hezbollah and could not punch through the Hezbollah lines. Israel had complete air superiority too.

I am also sure, after examining M1 wrecks from Iraq, that RPGs are more effective than we are led to believe.
No offence Zagros, but the Israelis problem was that they sent tanks tio face entrenched Hizb fighters armed with AT Weapons, without supporting infantry.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 14:29
Then they are a bunch of amateurs - they just thought they'd send in their tanks take no casualties and win just because of the reputation that's attributed to them.  Well, they were wrong.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 01:54
Very true. The thing is that you need the infantry to clear the AT nests. But whenever you use infantry you take casualties, the one thing they are allergic too.
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