Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
El_Bandito
Knight
Joined: 03-Jan-2005
Location: Mongolia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Did Chinggis really conquer more than Alexander? Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 22:30 |
U are right. Bush doesn't even come close as an elite. BTW I didn't know Texas had monkeys.
|
I'm awake, I'm awake.
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 02:03 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Ok, Therefore Alexander couldn't defeat Darius in any battle and the result of those battles was a "difficult unsuccess" for Alexander because Daius just retreated and finally he was killed by Bessus, is it right? (if you to see just the end of the story)
|
No, because the purpose of engaging in a battle is to win it! And Alexander, ultimatelly, won every single one of them, destroying the forces opposing him... if Darius run away instead, that was his problem. There was no organized retreat of any kind, rather a "run for your lives" kind of thing.
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 03:40 |
What about Alexander in the Persian gates, didn't he run away for his life?
|
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 05:13 |
No, he retreated and then attacked from another side, always in frond of his troops, leading them, and consequently won the battle.
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 12:19 |
did he retreat at the front or the rear of his troops?
|
|
ChineseManchurian
Samurai
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 14:44 |
Yea, you said Darius run for his life? that means he scared, actually he have nothing to worry about, Alexander almost lost at the same time.
One more thing, Alexander picked a good time for attack Persia when it gets weak. The governers of Persia were corrupt and there sodiers do not want fight for them except for some nobles. Persian sodiers are so bad, they have to hire Greek mercenaries to increase their power and the Greek mercenaries actually helped Alexander. The main reason Persia lost is because Darius escape from the battle(because he just got scared). And they have some problem with their strategy, like they should wait Alexander in Babylon city not fight a battle to lose army. Not sell their ships to cut of Alexander's supporting line, Persia could easy win. How ever, Alexander got %60 lucky to conquer Persia.
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 12:04 |
Greek mercenaries fought on both sides, and the mercenaries fightign for the Persians were absolutely loyal, in fact they did not helped Alexander but he had them all massacred after the battle of the Granikos because there should be no Greeks to oppose him in the world.
|
|
Atourian
Janissary
Joined: 07-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Jan-2005 at 14:01 |
The Macedonian empire was the coolest.
Wasn't tamerlane's empire larger than genghis khan's?
|
Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; the end of the world is evidently approaching.
- Assyrian clay tablet 2800 B.C
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Jan-2005 at 14:05 |
nope, but it was larger than Alexanders empire.
|
|
Miller
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jan-2005 at 01:07 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
Alexander left part of the army under Krateros to occupy
Ariobarsanes, then he took the other part, and under the cover of the
night and with the help of a local sheperd, he crossed the
mountains and attacked the Persians from behind.
|
Interesting how there are so many
shepherds in Greek stories. I wonder
if this is the same shepherd that helped
Xerxes at Thermopylae.
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jan-2005 at 05:15 |
Originally posted by Miller
Interesting how there are so many shepherds in Greek stories. I wonder if this is the same shepherd that helped Xerxes at Thermopylae. |
I see you've spotted the similarity. It does ring a bell doesn't it?
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
warhead
General
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 17:04 |
" Many books claim that Chinggis conquered China and Persia - but it's not true. Sure most of Chin and the entire Xixia teritorries were conquered, as were Transoxiania and Khwarizm."
Not even, Xi Xia was not conquered until after his death. He only conquered around 1/3 of Jin and many of these cities were retaken, especially after the Jin annihilated the Mongol at Da Yuan Chang.
The extent of Genghis's empire in the U.S. analysis of the top ten conquerors of history was 4,850,000. Hoowever thta undoubtly included Xi Xia and the territory north of the steppe as Temujin already mentioned. Also the Tarim Basin was NOT conquered, the Uighur kingdoms there were independent and only vassal in name. But Genghis's eempireis still larger than Alexander's simply because of the vast steppe territories he conquered.
"nope, but it was larger than Alexanders empire."
No, they are around equal with Alexander at a slight lead with 2,180,000 sq miles and Timur at 2,160,000.
I also don't see a meaning to comparing population at different times, or else, Mao would have been the greatest conquerer of all,
|
|
warhead
General
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 17:09 |
"the facts show Chinggis empire as the bigger one, there's nothign to argue at all. and population growth was not linear, how come there are today cities of several thousands on the American east coast but before 1500 it was sparsely populated? your evaluation is therefore not a scientific approach. that's why empires are measured by territory and not population. and lookign at your map i realised you included territories not conquered by him, namely Cyrenaica. that means that you've faked the map in favour of Alexander anyway, that shows your credibility."
Neither size or population measure conquest, its the total wealth and importance(which include military and technological advances that strengthen the regime) combined that decide whats the best territories conquered. Size and population are just factors that add up to it. While we can't measure population we certainly could measure the percentage of population they possess in the world, which Alexander did have a lead.
|
|
warhead
General
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Jan-2005 at 17:20 |
"Other than that, his empire encompassed vast unpopulated areas, while Alexander's empire was of more populated and more civilized areas."
No, by sheer number Genghis conquered far more, the population of Jin on the eve of conquest had roughly 48 million people that does not include Manchuria which has over 2 million population of its own, although Chinngis did not conquer all of Jin he still had at least 15 million people in the territory he conquered. the steppe territory has roughly 1.5 million, the territory conquered of Khariazem had some 4 million people and that of east turkestan at least another milion added up this should be some 22 million in all that he conquered.(although he did significantly reduced them to nearly half that number.)
For Alexander's Empire:
Near East less Arabia: 12.0 million Egypt: 4 million Central Asia and India: 1.5 Million
Greek states: 1.25 million.
All together it couldn't have been over 20 million.
|
|