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Thirteenth anniversary of the fall of the Soviet Union

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Thirteenth anniversary of the fall of the Soviet Union
    Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 23:45

Bin Laden hates our power in the Middle East, and if we did withdrawal, peace would reign. But the dishonor and loss of power would be unbearable. Would you presume to tell Britain and France that to attain peace with Hitler they should have surrendered central Europe to him?

I disagree Genghis, there will never be peace with these types. Death is all they understand and they wont stop killing until they are dead.



Beylerbeyi, which policies exactly is it that Bin Laden hates? The ones he does, not you.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 12:47

"Bush just says that because he's smart"

 Bush, a smart person? His words may have in some weird coincindence be smart somewhere, but hardly thought up by himself. His educational level is laughable. From his every speech it is clearly sighted, that his school years weren't that long or he just squandered them all down the toilet. He couldn't make out one single sentence which has one ore or more commas in it.

And Israel, a democracy, hardly even a laughable matter. A country who has over a hundred nuclear warheads and denies every other nation in the area of obtaining any themselves and is at the same time the most likely country of using one. What democratic country goes killing into an area where refugees are living off of scraps and their kids go to schools which are filled with bulletholes of the Israeli arms, bought from America, the "most democratic country on earth who at the same time produces half the weaponry used to kill the people on Earth".

Shooting randomly at women children and men with gunships is democratic by American and Israeli standards indeed i see.

 

And about the SU falling into smithereens 13 years ago, everyone should be happy and feel warmth in their hearts that another year has passed of the conquest of the tyrants. I also feel pity towards the sixty + year old ex sovet generals who wear a ton of gold on their chests and feel pride of those pieces of "nothing" which were earned either for "freeing" Eastern European nations from nazi tyranny which they made us feel tenfold. May the dirt be heavy on those men and thei dellusions.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 14:24

That's the way this sick and twisted world works.

We are responsible for the shape the world is in. We are the ones to set it right.

Only Bin Laden and America are smart enough to make us of the old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Tell how smart this move was to the relatives of the 9/11 dead, not to me. Or to the American troops being blown up in Iraq (Saddam was an old enemy of enemy too).

but what type of honorable country would give in to such demands under the threat of force?

As I wrote before America already gave in to Bin Ladin's demand that they get out of Saudi Arabia. 

I don't believe that Bin Laden hates us because we watch MTV, drink beer, or listen to rap music.  Bush just says that because he's smart and knows stupid people will buy it.

It sometimes feels like I am the only person who thinks that Americans are not stupid. Anyway, you are contemptous of your own people and the way the world is run. But you refuse to work for change. 

Please tell me how the Bush family had ties with the Nazis.  You people are so full of it, soon you'll be telling me the Bush family had ties with Attila the Hun and Darth Vader.
 

It's all over the place: Http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

Google for more.

We support Israel, a democracy, yet we are blamed for that.  We also support Egypt, which is a democracy, even though it can be corrupt.

Israel is a democracy only if you are a (well-behaved) Jew. If you are an Arab in Israel, you are a second class citizen, if you are an Arab in the occupied territories (which is an euphemism for 'lebensraum'), you are not a human being... There is a name for this regime, and it is not democracy (hint: South Africa, another American darling used to have it).

Egypt is no democracy either. Unless you consider Cuba a democracy as well. 

Other than that there aren't many democracies for us to pick from in the Middle East, and we need allies there regardless of what their government types are.  They can do whatever they want by themselves as long as America can make a sweet deal with them and they don't become unruly. Such is the way of the world, and I'm not ashamed in admitting that I would play it if the cards were in my hand, as opposed to many others who sit in front of a screen and pretend that they would be knights in shining armor rescuing the world from all the ills that trouble it.

So you are the one who would make peace with nazis or similar people if they hadn't threatened American interests, made sweet deals... Indeed we have seen the American government (and many other governments) doing exactly this. Interesting point is, you recognise that this position is morally deficient. Next thing you should recognise is that you can change the rules of the game. 'I play by the rules' is not a sufficient excuse. By playing the game you don't agree with (actually by helping those who play it) you are contributing to the way of the world which you find deplorable.

I wish you (and the world) a happy 2005.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 15:27

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Only Bin Laden and America are smart enough to make us of the old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Tell how smart this move was to the relatives of the 9/11 dead, not to me. Or to the American troops being blown up in Iraq (Saddam was an old enemy of enemy too).

It's very smart to all the American soldiers and civilians who would have been fried to a crisp if we tried to defeat the USSR with less subtle and devious methods.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

but what type of honorable country would give in to such demands under the threat of force?

As I wrote before America already gave in to Bin Ladin's demand that they get out of Saudi Arabia. 

Of course we pulled out of Saudi Arabia, we have Iraq to use.  Saudi Arabia is not needed as a base area.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I don't believe that Bin Laden hates us because we watch MTV, drink beer, or listen to rap music.  Bush just says that because he's smart and knows stupid people will buy it.

It sometimes feels like I am the only person who thinks that Americans are not stupid. Anyway, you are contemptous of your own people and the way the world is run. But you refuse to work for change. 

I wouldn't try to change when the sun rises and sets, and so will I not try to create a utopia on Earth.  Everyone who has tried has failed at best and lost their lives at worst.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Please tell me how the Bush family had ties with the Nazis.  You people are so full of it, soon you'll be telling me the Bush family had ties with Attila the Hun and Darth Vader.
 

It's all over the place: Http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

Google for more.

Oh wow, the Guardian, I'm not surprised.  That's just stupid anti-Bush propaganda.  It'd be like you citing an article in Pravda under Stalin, all lies.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

We support Israel, a democracy, yet we are blamed for that.  We also support Egypt, which is a democracy, even though it can be corrupt.

Israel is a democracy only if you are a (well-behaved) Jew. If you are an Arab in Israel, you are a second class citizen, if you are an Arab in the occupied territories (which is an euphemism for 'lebensraum'), you are not a human being... There is a name for this regime, and it is not democracy (hint: South Africa, another American darling used to have it).

Egypt is no democracy either. Unless you consider Cuba a democracy as well. 

You don't have to preach to me about Israel.  I don't like them either.  They're a worthless ally who destroys our PR in the Middle East.  If I were President, all treaties with Israel would be terminated at once.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Other than that there aren't many democracies for us to pick from in the Middle East, and we need allies there regardless of what their government types are.  They can do whatever they want by themselves as long as America can make a sweet deal with them and they don't become unruly. Such is the way of the world, and I'm not ashamed in admitting that I would play it if the cards were in my hand, as opposed to many others who sit in front of a screen and pretend that they would be knights in shining armor rescuing the world from all the ills that trouble it.

So you are the one who would make peace with nazis or similar people if they hadn't threatened American interests, made sweet deals... Indeed we have seen the American government (and many other governments) doing exactly this. Interesting point is, you recognise that this position is morally deficient. Next thing you should recognise is that you can change the rules of the game. 'I play by the rules' is not a sufficient excuse. By playing the game you don't agree with (actually by helping those who play it) you are contributing to the way of the world which you find deplorable.

I don't find the world deplorable or commendable, I just find it as it is.  I don't think I'm morally deficient when I have to choose between evils.  If I have to invade Iraq and in so doing fight terrorists there instead of in North America, that's the lesser evil of the two.  In life there are never perfectly humane means that will yield perfectly humane ends.  Sometimes we must use a horrible means to prevent an even worse end.

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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 08:25
 So Laleviopeg came back with his anti Russian rhetoric which I've so longed for. Please tell me again how you would rather be sent to a concentration camp than put up with us.
 As for the topic,you can't keep us down forever. Russia has fell and Risen again manyt iems and this is no exception.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that all soldiers who have been in serious battle are heroes. Whether in the Wermacht, Red Guard, or whatever Estonia has they deserve no less respect because of the actions of their superiors.


Edited by dark_one
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 16:01

A train wagon towards Siberia is in my opinion ten times worse than a heavy labor camp somewhere in Poland and why does everyone think that if Germany had won, he would have put all of Europe into camps?

"Forgot to mention that all soldiers who have been in serious battle are heroes. Whether in the Wermacht, Red Guard, or whatever Estonia has they deserve no less respect because of the actions of their superiors."

Yes they did run through half of Europe in mud and showers of led and that makes them heroes, but all that just disappears, when those heroes start making my land into their province as they so arrogantly feel and proudly say it out and can't see it in any other way.

And what do you mean by Russia will rise again? That you wish Russia to be feared again? And that your country would be able to bully little ones. I don't want Estonia to rise anywhere but remain right here on the little piece of land we have. It seems so out of reach to me that a person would want his nation to be GREAT in the eyes of others. Maybe i understood you wrong but then you will correct me, ok.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 16:29
Originally posted by dark_one


EDIT: Forgot to mention that all soldiers who have been in serious battle are heroes. Whether in the Wermacht, Red Guard, or whatever Estonia has they deserve no less respect because of the actions of their superiors.

They were brave. But IMO brevery is not sufficient for being a hero.
If someone kills innocent civilians while being heavily under attack by enemies I wouldn't call that one a hero.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 16:34

A train wagon towards Siberia is in my opinion ten times worse than a heavy labor camp somewhere in Poland and why does everyone think that if Germany had won, he would have put all of Europe into camps?


In Richard Rhodes' Masters of Death he claims (backing it up with actual written evidence) that Hitler planned for the murder of over 40 million Slavs once he conquered Western Russia.
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 16:44

And what do you mean by Russia will rise again? That you wish Russia to be feared again? And that your country would be able to bully little ones. I don't want Estonia to rise anywhere but remain right here on the little piece of land we have. It seems so out of reach to me that a person would want his nation to be GREAT in the eyes of others. Maybe i understood you wrong but then you will correct me, ok.


In terms of military technology Russia is always a step ahead of us.  I fear that SuCav torpedo they have out there, although it only has a range of ten kilometers..but still, if they manage to get a SSN that close, thats a torpedo heading right at you at 200knots.

I tell you that in ten years the Russian military will not only mirror us - but not eclipse us.  We have too many counter-weapons now... such as the new DREAD guns.
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 19:47
There's no way Russia will eclipse us in the near future, they never eclipsed us during the Cold War.  Sure they came up with some good ideas, but we did as well.  They especially won't eclipse us now that the Soviet Union is no more, and the massive Cold War military budgets are a thing of the past.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 13:12
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Stupid Bush propaganda. Everyone from the CIA directors to Bin Ladin himself tell us that the reason behind Al Qaida attacks is American involvement in the Middle East. Specifically, unconditional American support for Israel and American military presence in Saudi Arabia. Actually America already bowed to Bin Ladin's key demand and moved the military out of Saudi. Silently, of course.

So here's something new for you: Bin Ladin hates you not because of what you are, but because of your policies. If radical Islam is a virus it was created in CIA labs, anyway. USA trained them and financed them against the Soviet Union everywhere, even in Turkey. In the 80s America was in bed with Bin Ladin. Yet now you are trying to make us believe that he hates every single thing about America. Yeah, sure.

Let me tell you something, many people in Turkey, who oppose the Islamists think that the US still controls the Islamists and Al Qaida. That's why there are so many conspiracy theories in the Middle East about 9/11: they are so used to the Wahhabis being American tools that they have a hard time believing that those people can have a different agenda and act independently.

Your leaders tell you that they attack because 'they hate our freedom, they hate America' and however incredibly ridiculous it sounds to the rest of the world who doesn't follow American media, it seems most people buy it over there. Even if Americans were that free, the obvious truth is nobody would attack someone else because they are envious of their freedom or their SUVs or their world-leading obesity rates. What's even more incredible is that they are packaging the Iraq war as a war against Al Qaida and people are buyng it... Of course the Democrats are huge losers and that Karl Rove guy has a genious that dwarfs Goebbels'.

I agree with the above

 

and for those who voted for Bush again i say the old saying

(None are so blind and so deaf as those who will not see and not hear).

 

 

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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 14:36

Originally posted by Genghis

There's no way Russia will eclipse us in the near future, they never eclipsed us during the Cold War.  Sure they came up with some good ideas, but we did as well.  They especially won't eclipse us now that the Soviet Union is no more, and the massive Cold War military budgets are a thing of the past.

I bet you didn't know that the Yahkont sea-skimming missile couldn't be picked up by Aegis until the late 80s, when it didn't matter anyways  It's said the U.S. fleet would have been destroyed in three days worth of fighting.  Not only that, but the Soviets had the best assault rifles in the world, the best aircraft in the world, and only lacked in armor and in submarines, where their vast amounts of missiles would have made up for the disadvantages.

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