Who are the ancient Macedonians ?

Originally posted by krater   why pre-hellenic?   Aeolians were dorian?

Who said that? Don't put words in people mouth.

Originally posted by krater   i'm still not convinced by ''the rough terrain''...werent there mk pilgrimages to greece-wasnt the people making contacts, there shouldve been a greater sense of common sense with the mks from the gr side...

Originally posted by Flipper Originally posted by krater i dont know, it's common sense to say this is that based on people's lifestyle: the today's nations are based on their culture&lifestyle-mentality... Culture, language, common background for a wide period of time. Or do you suggest there are pure races in this planet? Originally posted by krater   as for the language: it's too early to say if the mk lng was greek&if it was was, as such, spoken by the masses... You can't escape with such a quote. Elaborate please. You didn't answer my question just avoided it. How much is needed in order to justify what language was spoken in an area? Maybe, with your logic, the Akkadian was an imaginary language cause it is too early to say what languages the Akkadians spoke judging from the thousands inscirptions. And...Who are you to say to the linguist community if it is early or not? Originally posted by krater as for the religion, it could, to my mind, be observed the other way around: THE GREEKS ACCEPTED THE RELIGION FROM THE DORIANS: we know the notion of zeus is indoeuropean and stands for the hunter-people, as opposed to the ''mother/earth'' godess; the doric ''molecule'' came in greece, met the previous ''substratum'' there, gave it its religion, etc... Since, you go in circles without reaching a point. I ask you to answer the following 3 questions based on your answer above. If you believe in a healthy discussion DO NOT AVOID MY QUESTIONS AGAIN. a) But, in Mycenae they already believed in the gods before the "return of the heraclidae". How does your  theory fit in here? b) Can you give me 1 respected historian claiming the separation between Dorians and other Greeks? c) From what I understand you believe Macedonians were Dorians, but you're not convinced that Dorians are Greeks? Originally posted by krater yes, i didnt mean to point at the ''arduous geology'' of the gr/mk border, but at the fact that if gr/mk were ''the same'' (obviously, i mean, they shared the same religion, but is IT enough for them to have been greek?)... I said they shared more than religion. Religion, language, culture...What else is needed? Originally posted by krater so how is it they differed so much if they visited the same oracles, shared ''the same'' (primitive) customs (which, by definition, have their origin in religion)...lack of conntact can't change the same people so much...moreover they shared the common basis of life-the religion... Can you define "so much"? If you read  the whole post, nor I or Akritas mention they difered "so much". They developed in another way. Besides, I believe they used the Oracle of Dodona, instead of Delphi. Originally posted by krater you're right i've ''travelled through time'' lol. i should go no further then the early (post Roman) gothic italy being under the great cultural influence of byzantinum, right... [QUOTE] Italy being in cultural influence of Byzantium??? Originally posted by krater i think the main reason for the greek considering the macedonians greek is the common religion of ''the couple'', but religion is a poor nations' determinator, in my opinion (hebrews, eg)... What is a nations determinator? Each city state or Kindom in Greece was a nation of its own. You mean, ethnic determinator. http://mapp.naccho.org/mapp_glossary.asp "The classification of a population that shares common characteristics, such as religion, traditions, culture, language, and tribal or national origin" Do you suggest another determinator? Originally posted by krater as to the female names, i think ''hellen'' was a sign of the ''respectable''-civilized, gentle and cultivated world south of macedonia: just as some of the names within the germanic people near ''Rome''... What? How is a named a sign of "respectable"-civilized and cultivated world????   [QUOTE=krater] well, from ''topix'' the most striking would be the so called: 3rd philippic slave lies'': how come Demosthenes could have lied about Philip ii. and mk slaves? i mean the both peoples did trade-they knew each other. how can it be possible that not even the same religion codes werent enough to ''equal'' them? whatsmore-greek in Athens KNEW what the greek enemies were saying about the greek slaves, were all the greek slaves not good then. remember, all the greeks met alexander at chaeronea based on ''all those lies''...I MEAN, COMMON SENSE-HOW CAN IT BE?! You're still there and go in circles when this is analyzed 21341234 in this thread. I'll put it this way...Demosthenis refered to Philip, not all Macedonians. End of story...Now, this whole paragraph has been answered briefly in this thread.

I will now summarize this thread in sections for future use, to avoid loops and circles. This is an incomplete list, but i will fill up as much as I can. Akritas, as a thread starter It would be good to put the points before your first mentioned quotes as an index.

UPDATED


Page 1

- Major Ancient Sources related to their origins
- Self determination of the royal house
- Etymology of Makedonia
- Non autochthonus origins of Macedonians in the Macedonian area.
- Olympics: Participation of Pheidon, brother of Karanus in the first Olympics, Participation of Alexander I in the Olympics.
- Hellenodikai
- Establishement of the Kindom
- Demosthenes

Page 2

- Hellenodikai (continued)
- Alternative etymological suggestions
- Yauna Takabara, the persian term for describing the Macedonians
- Further analysis on ancient historians

Page 3

- Etymological analysis of the term barbaros and its usage.
- Further analysis on ancient historians
- Geography of Macedonia, migrations and prehistory
- Common symbols between Macedonians and other Greeks
- Coinage
- Modern Historians

Page 4

- Etymological analysis of the term barbaros and its usage (continued)
- Alexander I and the term Philellen
- Demosthenes motives

Page 5

- Hellenization theories
- Examples of no-Hellenic populations that were Hellenized and their characteristics.
- Migrations and geography
- Corinthian influence in Macedonia.
- First man named Alexander
- Macedonians VS Phrygians

Page 6

- Archeology in Macedonia
- Geography and boundaries
- Athens, Macedonia and their relations during the 5th centry
- Attested Thracian tribes in  Macedonia
- Corinthian coinage at Therma (Thessaloniki) and corinthian settlements in Macedonian districts.
- Geometric Macedonia and its findings (Tombs, Keramics).
- Comparisson of Mycenaean and Macedonian artifacts from the bronze age.
- Idiomatic macedonian words

Page 7

- After the Phrygian migration
- Macedonian cementaries 13th cent BC
- Idiomatic macedonian words
- More ancient sources
- Archeology in Macedonia
- Modern Archeologists/Historians

Page 8

- Hammonds work analysis
- Hellanicus time in Macedonia
- Mysians
- Modern and Ancient Historians
- Mycenaean artifacts in Macedonian settlements

Page 9

- Mycenaean Argos VS Macedonia
- Burial customs
- Timeframes
- Clarification of Makedon and Makednos

Page 10

- Mycenaean Macedonia continued

Page 11

- Thesis of the various theories presented
- Summary

Page 12

- Brasidas speech to the Acanthians and comparisson to Demosthenes speech.
- Analysis from modern historians about Demosthenes motives.
- Spartans and their views on their enemies.

Page 13

- Macedonian inscription where Damon son of Nicanor is honoured for serving his homeland (patrida) and his people (reffered as Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks).
- Analysis of the Hellenization argument (external article by Akritas)


More to come...












Edited by Flipper - 02-Nov-2007 at 11:33

Originally posted by Flipper Krater, i think you fall in the case of spamming right now: 1) You refer only to Yiannis, ignoring what i have mentioned. 2) I asked you to answer on some specific questions, dealing with your opinion, if you want a healthy discussion and really want to get answers. 3) You go in circles mentioning again the 3rd Philippic, which has been debated to death in the thread from the beginning. 4) Your posts make no sense anymore. You claim things without having data/evidence or quotes by legetimate historians. In other words, playarism. 5) You're using sophism. You do not suggest or present an opinion. I see deliberately invalid arguments displaying ingenuity in reasoning. I feel you avoid speaking to me right now, quoting my post but answering to Yiannis. Later I will make a list on every matter discussed here and link to the page it is mentioned. I guess after that, we only have the choise to move on to any other NEW non discussed matters. This is a thread with essays on the matter. I think it is pitty not to refer to them and mention the same things on and on.

Krater could you please, please, calm your aggressive tone. Also, please try to put forward your argument in a succinct manner, without using capitals and smilies like it's the summer of '69. That would be great thanks. This topic is being monitored. 

I was responding to the nature of the posts being offered Leonidas, I was essentially verbalising my irreverent attitude to the way the topic is being discussed by ironically posting a nonchalant response to a 'discussion' that is anything but nonchalant, and by nature pointless.

Or failing that, i'm sorry and won't do it again..

Originally posted by Dolphin I was responding to the nature of the posts being offered Leonidas, I was essentially verbalising my irreverent attitude to the way the topic is being discussed by ironically posting a nonchalant response to a 'discussion' that is anything but nonchalant, and by nature pointless. Or failing that, i'm sorry and won't do it again..

The Greeks were only third in number in Alexandru army ,after Macedonians and Thracians , so the claim that Greeks conquered the Achaemenid is ridiculous, and Macedonians and Greeks considered themselves different nations in that era ,and probably were