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Europe vs rest of world in the Middle Ages

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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Europe vs rest of world in the Middle Ages
    Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 18:23
The first stage of the modern state isn't the identification between State and Nation, but between the Crown and the State, more than an identification a trully confusion of the private lands of the King with the public interest of the nation considering the nation as the community of vassals of the King; at the moment that the power of the King-Crown grew, it will try to absorb the territory of the vassals. This is the real proces of state's formation.

There are early examples of the identification between Crown and Nation, we can see the France of the Hundred Years War and a movement of nationalism. But this early stage of this identification (as i show, not in the XVI century but in the XIV-XV) can't deny the fact that the main "leifmotiv" of the state expansion followed other concepts. Never exist a trully concept of nation-state in western Europe until the XIX century, when they tryed seriously to create this identity (according with Eric Hobsbawn); of course, at least for western Europe, there are a paulatine identification of the state with a nation, France and the french, England and the english, Spain and the castillians... but for many time, these countries wasn't nation-state but a conglomerate of nations all good servants of the King-state.

Pd. Talking at the same time that Maharbbal LOL


Edited by Ikki - 21-Sep-2006 at 18:29
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 18:24
Nation-state if it ever existed is rare and pretty limited both in time and space but when we say state we usually mean modern (after 1455) western or western-like political organization.

Then (I'm sorry dear Konstantinius if I sound a little patronizing) there is NOT such a thing a "civilization" so the notion of state is strictly independant from that.

Finally the state is a common and effective solution to set up and enforce rules but it is by no mean the only one. The Middle Age for instance are a good example, the very idea of sovereignty was though reverd officially, pratically absent. Not mentionning all the societies regarded with contempt that yet clearly "civilised" do not have a state see the Na in China before the Ha invasion.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 20:32
Originally posted by perikles

I think that the comparison is not a quite fair. Although i consider Europe more advance than every other region of the planet at all ages, we compare Europe vs China. I maen a whole continent vs a single nation. And even in Europe we have three systems the eastern (Byzantine empire following by Ottoman Empire) and the western Spain, France, British, Latins and if i could say that the nothern (Russia, Prossia etc) These all systems was interactive. So the development of Europe at that ,although many wars were taking place , it was amazing. And if we consider that europeans had as a base the ancient greek civilization this is the proof that Europeans were at all times more advance. Industrial, army, arts and even philosophy.
 
I don't much understand this reasoning, perikles. Whenever I try to explain Chinese history to people, I always begin by relating it to the west, saying Han China was to the East what the Roman Empire was for the West, laying the groundwork for high civilization spread throughout vast regions and affecting later civilizations who came after them in the same region or surrounding areas. Although the Romans borrowed much from the accomplishments of the earlier Greeks, the Roman Empire left the Middle Age European societies that came after them the groundwork for written law, urban development, sophisticated culture and governance, technological base for further achievements, etc., and Roman influence left permanent marks on territories outside of Europe as well.
 
The same principles mentioned above for the Roman Empire to later civilizations greatly parallels China's importance to early social, political, economic, martial, agricultural, literary, and philosophical development in nearly the whole of East Asia, spreading Chinese goods and ideas through land/maritime trade and conquest to foreign regions such as Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Central Asia, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, etc. 
 
To say that European art is "more advanced" than Eastern art is a matter of subjectivity and largely one's own personal opinion, but it is rediculous to say that Western Art reached a more sophisticated level than Eastern Art. Do I even need to list all the examples (I will if you press me about that one, and I don't want to go on a rant, but I will if provoked)?
 
European armies of antiquity and the middle ages were superior to that of China's? LOL Dude, read a friggin history book. Seriously. I'd be glad to point you out to a few good ones.
 
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that by the 19th century Industrial Revolution, European powers were far more advanced in science and technology than China. However, China is not only the birthplace of many indigenous innovations and incredible inventions that helped shape their society and spread out to the Eurasian world, but China also underwent their own proto-Industrial Revolution during the Song Dynasty, from the 10th to 13th centuries, long before Europe would ever dream of producing goods on such a massive scale or monitoring an enormous economy on such a massive scale for that matter. In terms of mathematics, technology, and science, we see such figures as the mathematicians, scientists, and inventors Gan De, Liu Hui, Luoxia Hong, Zhang Heng, Tu Shih, Zu Chongzhi, Zu Geng (whose writing was a thousand and one hundred years before Bonaventura Cavalieri's), and with the earliest Chinese doctrines and lengthy treatises on math, science, and invention stemming back all the way to the Western Zhou period (1045 - 771 BC), and maybe even prior during the Shang (I'll get back to you on that one). The ancient Chinese were largely equal to their Hellenistic and Roman contemporaries in terms of mathematical, scientific, and technological innovation, and early on were experts of documenting herbal medicication for illnesses. 
 
And finally, we come to your listing of philosophy. This part of your post displays in a most comical/ironic fashion your complete ignorance of Chinese and East Asian history for that matter, and the importance of early Chinese philosophy, with its deep impact on the future generations of the Eastern World, not just China. In the same time frame and age of the Athenian Golden Age, the great Greek philosophers Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, the Chinese states under the weakening hegemony of the Zhou Dynasty were undgoing a widespread movement known as the One Hundred Schools of Thought, a movement sparked by figures who were concerned with the rising social ills that were harming the fabric of moral society and driving human beings to engage in what many considered futile and wasteful fulfillments of mindless warfare and trivial, materialistic, and petty pursuits that undermined the basic needs of the people and stability of the state. Let's look at some basic information about Chinese philosophers during the age before Jesus Christ (BC):
 
*Kong Fuzi (Latinized as "Confucius" by the Jesuit Matteo Ricci), a 6th to 5th century BC traveling philosopher who gathered many disciples (chronicling his life as well as the Spring and Autumn Annals). Kong Fuzi is the founder of Confucianism, a 2,500-year-old tradition of China, famous for the Golden Rule, "Is there is one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all of ones life? Is not reciprocity such a word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do unto others." In his philosophy he built a formal system of moral and ethical conduct within different levels of human social relations, such as ruler and ruled, friend to friend, father to son, husband to wife, etc. His movement was largely implemented into Chinese tradition once Emperor Wu (r.141 - 87 BC) of the Han Dynasty made it official that the Imperial Exams of drafting officials into the bureaucracy were to be designed emphasizing the Confucian Classics.
*Mengzi (Mencius), promoted early Humanism as an aspect within Confucian teaching, taught that all human beings were born with innate goodness and were corrupted by the ills of society; he also praised the well-field system of distributing private property to sharecroppers (in a system of 9 square girds, with the 9th square grid in the center being used to produce food for the government graneries in times of economic uncertainty and inflation of grain prices), and preached that any king who abused governance and the right of the people should be overthrown by the people, who would effectively revoke his right in the "Mandate of Heaven" Mencius once told a Warring States Era King these words of wisdom:
 
"Now when food meant for human beings is so plentiful as to be thrown to dogs and pigs, you fail to realize that it is time for garnering, and when men drop dead from starvation by the wayside, you fail to realize that it is time for distribution. When people die, you simply say, 'It is none of my doing. It is the fault of the Harvest.' In what way is that different from killing a man by running him through, while saying all the time, 'It is none of my doing. It is the fault of the weapon.' Stop putting the blame on the harvest and the people of the whole Empire will come to you," (Mencius, Book 1 Part A, 3).
 
*Xunzi, another Confucian follower who went against his contemporary Mengzi and said that all human beings were born wicked and evil, and thus it was society's job to maintain them and look after them by strict adherence to code of law. Han Feizi and Shang Yang would later develop his teachings to the harsh philosophy known as Legalism
*Mozi (Micius), founder of Mohism in the 5th century BC. His teaching was founded on the principle of universal love for all people, and that all were created equal by the will of heaven, and that the harmonious balance believed to encompass heaven should be set as the prime example for those on earth. Mozi taught that the material physical world of the human senses wer more important and valuable to understanding the world than relying on human imagination and internal logic, based on the capacities in our ability to form knowledge through abstract thought. He was often a critic of Kong Fuzi's ideas as being too elitist and noble-centric), he stressed principles of merit over heredity in governmental importance, and believed ancient rituals were a waste of time and weren't necessary in a more advanced, functioning society. Mozi aligned his philosophy to help the smaller, weaker states against the larger, more militaristic ones, believing warfare was a waste of time and state energy, in the end, bringing his philosophy on the brink of extinction (with Qin's infamous Burning of the Books in 213 BC) until it later blended with the ideas of Confucianism in the Han Dynasty.
*Laozi, founder of Daoism, emphasizing the natural course humans should follow, that human society was just a part of the fabric of the overall world and greater surrounding of nature, that people's lives were guided by natural elements that were largely out of their control, and responsible for the written classic known as the Tao Te Ching in the 6th century BC
*Sun Tzu, a 6th century government official from the State of Wu who wrote his famous Art of War on military tactition and treatise on ancient international diplomacy between neutral, rivaling, and allied states
 
From Sun Tzu's Art of War:
 

Strike the enemy when he is in disorder.
Avoid the enemy when he is stronger.
If your opponent has a temper, irritate him.
If he is arrogant, encourage his egotism.
Attack the enemy when he is unprepared.

 

He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious

He who understands how to fight in accordance with the strength of antagonistic forces will be victorious

He whose ranks are united in purpose will be victorious

He who is well prepared and lies in wait for an enemy who is not well prepared will be victorious

 

One defends when his strength is inadequate;
he attacks when it is abundant

 

When torrential water tosses boulders,
it is because of its momentum;
when the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey;
it is because of timing

 

If reckless, he can be killed;
if cowardly, captured;
if quick-tempered, he can be provoked to rage;
if he has too delicate a sense of honor, he can be easily insulted

*Sun Bin, descendant of Sun Tzu, wrote Sun Bin's Art of War and being a military strategist for the State of Qi, used military strategy to outwit the Wei kingdom in two pivotal battles
*Shang Yang, a Qin-State reformer of Legalism, which was a harsh authoritarian philosophy stressing small rewards for merit and contribution to the state, larger rewards for greater and more frequent deeds done to support the state, and cruel and exacting punishments for crimes, transgressions, and failure to meet state quotas and expectations
*Other 100 Schools of Thought not yet listed: the Yin-Yang School, stressing the emphasis of natural forces causing natural events and influencing human relations, the School of Agriculture, promoting the knowledgee of agricultural processes and explaining agricultural methods and devices used to promote it, the School of Logicians, who much like the traveling sophists and philisophs of ancient Greece, traveled around and promoted the teachings of logic to come to mathematical certainties and understandings, and finally the School of Horizontal Alliance and the School of Vertical Alliance during the mid 3rd century BC, which supported either allying with the State of Qin to destroy the other states militarily, or allying with the other six Warring States left to oppose the behemoth military power that was Qin, who were quickly advancing in greater production of iron weaponry and driven by a harsh system of meritocracy to meet all goals and ends of the militarized state.
 
Eric   


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 21-Sep-2006 at 21:54
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 06:00
I've always foud Sun Tze borring like hell. The all: "If a tiger eats your right hand, defend yourself with the left one" is for me so tedious. At least Plato is funnier "if a tiger eats your right hand blame the sophists, if it eats your left hand blame the politician but never blame the tiger itself". Lot of nonsense but good fun nontheless. This is a bright evidence of the indeniable superiority of the Western philosphy... er... or not.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 06:31
To say that European art is "more advanced" than Eastern art is a matter of subjectivity and largely one's own personal opinion, but it is rediculous to say that Western Art reached a more sophisticated level than Eastern Art. Do I even need to list all the examples (I will if you press me about that one, and I don't want to go on a rant, but I will if provoked)?
While agree that art appreciation is a matter of subjectivity, I think there are quite solid criterias to point out a certain difference if not quite an advancement of Western art.
 
Let's focus on painting, for instance.
 
Since 13th century (Giotto) Western art (re)discovered spatiality, with Renaissance (da Vinci) the painting becomes more "scientific" (Leonardo himself invoking geometry basic principles or some averages to correctly depict the human body proportions but also other bodies - animals, various objects, etc.). Without going at length (for now I think it's not necessary) on it, I'd say in the Early Modern Age, the so called "Classical" Europe, we find an impressive Western expressivity with no match in other corner of the world (at least until they made contacts with Western art).
 
It's a bit difficult to put it in a few number of words.
 
I am not specialist in Chinese art (not even in Western art, however I know much more about it), I've seen some paintings executed during Qing dinasty (some of the Eight Eccentrics, Shi Tao, and others whose names I don't remember right now). They certainly are art, some are masterpieces in their own way, the technique is admirable, I could even understand someone being impressed by this art. But they do not have that quasi-universable beauty, the volumes, the colors, the strong organic feelings the Western art is giving. Contemporary Western art is quasi-photographic, the symbolism (that to give the Chinese artists full trust in their artistic skills and capacities) does not mean simplistic or clumsy depiction, lacking volume or narrow ranges/depths of colors.
Western paintings can easily and eloquently represent a variety of emotions - one can feel the joy, the sorrow, the melancholy - from colors, attitudes, eyes, faces. Western portraits are not sketched like the contemporary Chinese ones. And it's not culture here, it's basic human psychology. 
One Romanian thinker said that the history of the self-portrait exists only in Europe. Though I've considered him eurocentric at the time I've read that book, I've later seen some Chinese self-portraits and I realized he's right.
 
I have yet to find a Chinese match of Caravaggio, Velazquez, Rembrandt or Goya to value Chinese art as much as I value Western one (and it's not only painting, it's also sculpture, music).
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 07:07
Originally posted by Maharbbal

I've always foud Sun Tze borring like hell. The all: "If a tiger eats your right hand, defend yourself with the left one" is for me so tedious. At least Plato is funnier "if a tiger eats your right hand blame the sophists, if it eats your left hand blame the politician but never blame the tiger itself". Lot of nonsense but good fun nontheless. This is a bright evidence of the indeniable superiority of the Western philosphy... er... or not.

    Tell us a "European" phiolosopher who is according to you serious and not boring or funny. And of course his theories must no have been influenced by ancient Greeks.

ps. You are the only one that said Platon funny. You find funny Aristoteles or Socrates also? If you don't like philosophy and you are not understand it there is no need to insult scientist of that level(Highest). Platon has reached the highest level human ever reach(Also Kratheodoris. The teacher of Ainstain)
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 07:19
Platon has reached the highest level human ever reach
I believe philosophy evolved greatly after Plato, so obviously there were higher levels Wink
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 08:58
yes it could be. Could you please name someone greater than Plato?
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:11
Aristotle, Saint Augustin of Hipona, Averroes, Avicena, Saint Thomas of Aquino, Descartes, David Hume, Rousseau, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche... All they can be.
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:20
Come on. You think Kant and NIche greater han plato?
Avicena if we talk about the same person was from Persia right? And as i recal to one criticism i ve read,in the menawhile i am searching my files for details, he was influenced by Aristotle and Platon philosoph. Even he was genious he was influenced by Platon. I don't consider him greater! Thomas Aquino was influenced by Avicena. Descarts is well known and i like him. HIs was a big fun of Socrates. For the others i don't know much. Maybe they can be greter. But this is something which each one of us has a different opinion. It is really ignorance to say that Platon is funny guy. Don't you think?
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:22
Come on. You think Kant and NIche greater han plato?
Avicena if we talk about the same person was from Persia right? And as i recal to one criticism i ve read,in the menawhile i am searching my files for details, he was influenced by Aristotle and Platon philosoph. Even he was genious he was influenced by Platon. I don't consider him greater! Thomas Aquino was influenced by Avicena. Descarts is well known and i like him. HIs was a big fan of Socrates. For the others i don't know much. Maybe they can be greter. But this is something which each one of us has a different opinion. It is really ignorance to say that Platon is funny guy. Don't you think?
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:29
Plato is revered as one of the founding fathers of western philosophy, but a lot has happened since he strolled the streets of Athens and he's not really relevant to the status quo of philosophical discussion anymore other than as a long dead pioneer. Aristotle I would say has had even more of an impact on western philosophy, in fact so many have built on his teachings since he first wrote them that his own texts now hold their main value "merely" in the field of philosophical history, not contemporary philosophy itself. Same goes for Thomas Aquino, Avicenna, Descartes etc. We must not confuse philosophical history with contemporary philosophy, the thoughts of these men were great once but the discipline has moved on and is still moving on. Keep yourself updated, discarding Kant and Nietzsche in favour of Plato and Aristotle is a bit like moving backwards.
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:48
I am not discarding anyone. I just said that nobody can say that Platon was a funny guy. I aggre with Aristoteles. It is true that philosophy was develpoed since Platon but i still considers him if not the greatest on of the three greatest philosophers.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 14:20
Originally posted by Maharbbal

I've always foud Sun Tze borring like hell. The all: "If a tiger eats your right hand, defend yourself with the left one" is for me so tedious. At least Plato is funnier "if a tiger eats your right hand blame the sophists, if it eats your left hand blame the politician but never blame the tiger itself". Lot of nonsense but good fun nontheless. This is a bright evidence of the indeniable superiority of the Western philosphy... er... or not.
 
Haha! That's one of the funniest things I've heard all day. And Chilbudios, thanks for the analysis, that was actually very thoughtful. I have to run and meet friends to go see the movie Jackass 2, so I'll write about Eastern Art later I guess. Hasta Luego! Until then!
 
Eric
P.S. I was always a fan of Descartes myself...
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 06:32
Lot of fuss about not much. I was just saying that Sun Tze was tedious. But as you've started like that let me answer you in three words and a half: Spinoza, Treaty Theologico-politic... Maybe the one and only. So much better than Plato's Republic or Aristotle's Politics in my view.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 02:47
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Lot of fuss about not much. I was just saying that Sun Tze was tedious. But as you've started like that let me answer you in three words and a half: Spinoza, Treaty Theologico-politic... Maybe the one and only. So much better than Plato's Republic or Aristotle's Politics in my view.
 
Nice! Spinoza, that was one smart Dutch-Jewish dude (too bad he felt so out of place in his own time), I actually find myself aligning without a lot of the stuff he proposed. Who would know? A guy who lived in the 17th century that you could relate to. I guess it makes as much sense as putting yourself in the shoes of the ancient Athenians who took that first leap into the unknown and dared to attempt something new and radical that seems so common to people of free republics/democracies today. I hope the world doesn't get reverted from the logic, considering the scary implications now-adays.
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 24-Sep-2006 at 02:51
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 19:31
I think that we digressed the discussion to ancient Greek vs. other Western philosophy. I also think that everyone migrated to the "Why Europe first" (or something like that) thread. Do you want to keep this going?
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