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Topic ClosedFall of Constantinople 29th May 1453

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fall of Constantinople 29th May 1453
    Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 00:20
Originally posted by Constantine XI

 
The site of Cordoba was originally used as a pagan temple. I do have a source for that:
 

Mezquita, (from Arabic مسجد "Masjid"), is Spanish for "mosque".

This article deals with the one in Cordoba, Spain. It is a 10th century Moorish Islamic house of prayer. The site is older than the building, having been host to a Roman pagan temple, the cathedral church of St Vincent of Saragossa built by the Catholic bishops under Visigothic rule, and finally the Mezquita itself.

 
A historian must deal with the fact that the vast bulk of what happened in history was not recorded, instead the contemporary evidence must be examined to determine what most likely happened. I have provided evidence that there was an empire-wide persecution of pagans, sanctioned by Roman imperial authorities. The evidence to suggest there was a persecution of the pagans in Cordoba and confiscation of their property is MORE CONVINCING than that they simply up and converted, raising their hands in the air and shouting "praise the Lord!" like a pack of evangelical rednecks. Also it wouldn't matter if the bulk of the population was pagan or not, it was the pagan's site and they had a right to it. But of course, the Christians chose to deny the pagans their right to simply exist, so we all know that one way or another the Christians managed to take the site by persecuting the original users. They either killed off the pagans and then took the site, or they took the site from them and then killed them. Not a world of difference.
 
Back to the overarching argument here, you claimed that the Christians had a right to confiscate the Cordoba mosque (the Mezquita) because it was stolen from them, that this was different from Mehmet and Haghia Sophia. Yet you are clearly in error. A little research reveals thats the Muslims were tolerant enough to allow joint use of the site and that the Christians abandoned it, actually relinquished their claim to ownership. I have a source for that too:
 
The construction of the Mezquita (originally the Aljama Mosque) lasted for over two centuries, starting in 784 A.D. under the supervision of the first emir of Cordoba, Abd ar-Rahman I, who used it as an adjunct to his palace and named it to honor his wife. The site was that of the Visigothic cathedral of St. Vincent. When the forces of Tariq ibn-Ziyad had first occupied Crdoba in 711, it had been equitable that they and the Christians share the cathedral space, according to the historian ar-Rz, who documented the mosque's history. But with the establishment of the Umayyads in exile as emirs of Crdoba, the compromise space was no longer sufficient. Negotiations between the Emir and the bishop of Crdoba, eased by the promise of a large cash payment as well as permission to rebuild one of the extramural churches that had been leveled at the time of the conquest, resulted in the Christians' relinquishing their half of St. Vincent, which was razed and the new mosque, in its first phase, built upon the foundations
 
 
So in fact, the Christians GAVE UP their claim to the church VOLUNTARILY, that after centuries of enjoying joint use of it as well as enjoying renovations and enlargements to the building paid for by Muslim authorities. So you have no basis to claim the Christians were "taking back" what was "stolen" from them. As conquerors the 13th century Spaniards simply took what they wanted, just as Mehmet did, so the two situations are perfectly comparable. My original argument that medieval conquerors took by conquest what they wanted and that this was common throughout the medieval world (both Christians and Muslims) is therefore entirely vindicated. My original point has been proven correct, and now it is your lack of research into this matter which is evident for all to see. Happy reading, mate.
 
Nope, you are still wrong Constantine XI.  You apparently did not even read half of what I last posted before posting your latest attempt to redeam Mehmet (perhaps you should change your nickname from Constantine to Mehmet, since you admire him so much).  In fact, you are showing your own double standards with this latest post of yours.  You have constantly argued about using "equitable thinking" during this entire debate and now you refuse to use it yourself. 
 
I asked you for a source regarding specific persecutions of pagans in Cordoba by the builders of the original Church of Cordoba (Saint Vincent).  Instead you proudly display a source that shows that the site was originally a pagan site of worship.  This is not the source I asked for and does nothing for your argument as we both accept the fact that it was originally a pagan place of worship. 
 
In fact, your source works against your argument.  Your source backs up what I said regarding the Visigoth's construction of the Church of Cordoba.  Your vague claims of Roman persecution of pagans (centuries before the church was even constructed) is irrelevant (and lacks equitable thinking) because the Roman's did not build the Church of Cordoba, the Visigoths did.  Yet you continue along this tangent regarding Roman persecution.  Until you can find a source that proves that the Visigoths persecuted pagans in Cordoba at the time of the building of the church your argument is still a failure.
 
Then you claim that the original church was voluntarily given up.  Yes, after the muslims moved themselves into half of it.   How very tolerant of the muslims to allow the Christians to continue to use half of thier own church.  The fact that the eventuall confiscation of the church was "eased by the promise of a large cash payment" proves nothing.  The muslims simply threw the Christians a hand out so that they wouldn't complain as much about the confiscation of their church.  According to your source, the muslims allowed the Christians to rebuild another church that the muslims had already destroyed during the muslim conquest.  Are you going to claim that was tolerance as well?  Doesn't sound very tolerant or voluntary to me. 
 
The only thing you have proven with your posts is that you refuse to admit defeat when you have lost a debate.  All of your arguments so far I've defeated and your new sources only help my arguments more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 00:59

Originally posted by R_AK47

I asked you for a source regarding specific persecutions of pagans in Cordoba by the builders of the original Church of Cordoba (Saint Vincent).  Instead you proudly display a source that shows that the site was originally a pagan site of worship.  This is not the source I asked for and does nothing for your argument as we both accept the fact that it was originally a pagan place of worship. 

It proves the site originally belonged to pagans and this corroberates my earlier evidence of institutionalised Christian driven persecutions. The pagans have a site of worship one day, then Christian persecutions begin and the pagans are wiped out, following which the pagan site of worship is taken over by the Christians. There is no explicit source stating every aspect of the persecutions of pagans over the whole Roman Empire, but historians accept that an empire-wide persecution happened. If all the evidence for a persecution of pagans in Cordoba is present, lacking only a piece of writing which explicitly says it happened, then the historian must conclude that the pagans were very likely wiped out by the Christians. The evidence is in my favour.
 
Originally posted by R_AK47

In fact, your source works against your argument.  Your source backs up what I said regarding the Visigoth's construction of the Church of Cordoba.  Your vague claims of Roman persecution of pagans (centuries before the church was even constructed) is irrelevant (and lacks equitable thinking) because the Roman's did not build the Church of Cordoba, the Visigoths did.  Yet you continue along this tangent regarding Roman persecution.  Until you can find a source that proves that the Visigoths persecuted pagans in Cordoba at the time of the building of the church your argument is still a failure.
 
Please stop misquoting me, it makes you look silly. I actually said the CHRISTIANS were the main agents who persecuted the pagans. I have said Romans persecuted them as well as Visigoths, but my point has always been that the persecutions were driven by Christians. I'll even quote myself to prove it:
Originally posted by Constantine XI

See my above explanation. Your view that all the Christian conversions were peaceful is totally erroneous, the Christian conversions and oppressions were as bad as a foreign invasion. The pagans often had to put up with Christianity imposed by foreigners, either from the far away priests of Rome of from some equally violent foreign tribe such as the Visigoths. It is naive to think that the Christian conversions were all some happy and peaceful affair with cotton candy, fun and games.
 
Originally posted by R_AK47

Then you claim that the original church was voluntarily given up.  Yes, after the muslims moved themselves into half of it.   How very tolerant of the muslims to allow the Christians to continue to use half of thier own church.  The fact that the eventuall confiscation of the church was "eased by the promise of a large cash payment" proves nothing.  The muslims simply threw the Christians a hand out so that they wouldn't complain as much about the confiscation of their church.  According to your source, the muslims allowed the Christians to rebuild another church that the muslims had already destroyed during the muslim conquest.  Are you going to claim that was tolerance as well?  Doesn't sound very tolerant or voluntary to me. 
 
The only thing you have proven with your posts is that you refuse to admit defeat when you have lost a debate.  All of your arguments so far I've defeated and your new sources only help my arguments more.
 
Hey I can't help the fact that the Christians liked money and were corruptable, if they want to sell their soul and their church to the Muslims then that is their business. Obviously they valued possession of the building so little they were prepared to sell it like any old piece of real estate. Also, how many times did the Christians allow the Muslims to share a place of worship when they conquered their lands? Never.
 
In anycase I have proven my original point which you contested, that Mehmet did what any other medieval conqueror did (including the 13th century Spanish). You have been running round yelling about how the Cordoba church was "stolen" (yes, you actually used the word) and how what Mehmet did was uniquely immoral. With the tiniest bit of historical research I have proven that you don't have a clue what you are on about (Cordoba was never stolen from the Christians like you claimed), which is evident and on display for every visitor to the medieval forum to see.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 21:22
Originally posted by Constantine XI

It proves the site originally belonged to pagans and this corroberates my earlier evidence of institutionalised Christian driven persecutions. The pagans have a site of worship one day, then Christian persecutions begin and the pagans are wiped out, following which the pagan site of worship is taken over by the Christians. There is no explicit source stating every aspect of the persecutions of pagans over the whole Roman Empire, but historians accept that an empire-wide persecution happened. If all the evidence for a persecution of pagans in Cordoba is present, lacking only a piece of writing which explicitly says it happened, then the historian must conclude that the pagans were very likely wiped out by the Christians. The evidence is in my favour.

Please stop misquoting me, it makes you look silly. I actually said the CHRISTIANS were the main agents who persecuted the pagans. I have said Romans persecuted them as well as Visigoths, but my point has always been that the persecutions were driven by Christians. I'll even quote myself to prove it: See my above explanation. Your view that all the Christian conversions were peaceful is totally erroneous, the Christian conversions and oppressions were as bad as a foreign invasion. The pagans often had to put up with Christianity imposed by foreigners, either from the far away priests of Rome of from some equally violent foreign tribe such as the Visigoths. It is naive to think that the Christian conversions were all some happy and peaceful affair with cotton candy, fun and games.
 
Hey I can't help the fact that the Christians liked money and were corruptable, if they want to sell their soul and their church to the Muslims then that is their business. Obviously they valued possession of the building so little they were prepared to sell it like any old piece of real estate. Also, how many times did the Christians allow the Muslims to share a place of worship when they conquered their lands? Never.
 
In anycase I have proven my original point which you contested, that Mehmet did what any other medieval conqueror did (including the 13th century Spanish). You have been running round yelling about how the Cordoba church was "stolen" (yes, you actually used the word) and how what Mehmet did was uniquely immoral. With the tiniest bit of historical research I have proven that you don't have a clue what you are on about (Cordoba was never stolen from the Christians like you claimed), which is evident and on display for every visitor to the medieval forum to see.
  
 
Here we go again.  You continue to bring the persecution of pagans by the Romans.  Again, I will inform you that the Church of Saint Vincent (original Church of Cordoba) was built by the VISIGOTHS centuries after the Roman persecutions you speak of.  You claim that the Roman persecutions wiped out the pagans in Cordoba.  Following that logic, then it is apparent that Cordoba was predominately Christian when the Visigoths took control of the area and built the Church of Cordoba.  If the Romans were as good at persecuting pagans as you claim, then there must not have been many pagans left for the Visigoths to persecute.  Since the Visigoths built the Church of Cordoba you cannot claim that the Visigoths stole the land from pagans, because the pagans were wiped out centuries before by the Romans.
 
I see that you are falsely claiming that I've misquoted you again.  Falsely attacking people because your argument is a failure actually makes you look "silly" not me.  You never specifically said anything about Visigoths persecuting pagans.  Instead you made a vague reference to them.
 
I don't know why you are accusing Christians of being greedy, loving money, and selling their souls.  You have an extreme anti-Christian, Western, European bias that has been apparent throughout this thread.  You claim that I am naive regarding the persecution of pagans.  If so then you are equally naive in your claim that the Church of Saint Vincents confiscation/destruction by the muslims was this peacefull, happy agreement (perhaps full of "cotton candy, fun and games" as you like to say).  It is obvious to anyone reading your source that the muslims had already decided what they were going to do with the building.  It is also apparent that the muslims were not very tolerant rulers according to your source (they agreed to allow the Christians to rebuilt ONE of the many churchs that the muslims had torn down). 
 
You have also made a comment stating "how many times did the Christians allow the Muslims to share a place of worship when they conquered their lands? Never."  What you fail to realize is that Christians never conquered any muslims lands during the middle ages, Christians only retook former Christian lands that muslims had conquered/stolen.  Therefore, all of the places of worship that you think should have been shared were originally Christian places of worship in the first place and therefore should not be shared.
 
The original Church of Cordoba was a Christian place of worship that was taken by muslim invaders.  Christian forces later rightfully reclaimed the site during the reconquest.  If you want to start a new thread (in historical amusement perhaps) about righteousness of a  pagan seizure of the the site you might have a point to argue.  However, for the purposes of this thread, your arguments regarding this are irrelevant.
 
The Church of Hagia Sophia was a Christian place of worship for centuries before it was seized by muslim invaders.  Muslims never had a claim to the site before the fall of Constantinople.  Therefore, Hagia Sophia should be returned to the Orthodox Christians as I have previously stated.
 
I believe that I have successfully defeated your arguments and proven mine.  For us to continue arguing this, as I've already stated several pages ago, is pointless.  The only thing you have proven that is "on display for every visitor to the medieval forum to see" is your own arrogance in refusing to stop arguing your losing argument.  Everyone else apparently lost interest in this debate long ago (after proving flaws in your tangent about Romanesque architecture) as we are all that have posted for some time now.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 21:33
You fail to address my rebuttal and I have clearly proven my point that Mehmet II did what any other medieval conqueror did. In the face of having been refuted with historical sources over your blatant inaccuracies about the church of Cordoba, you have again taken to misquoting me and twisting my words to avoid being made to look very silly. As I have more than satisfactorily proven beyond doubt that Mehmet II's actions were simply typical and as I have roundly defeated your biased attempt to portray the Christian forces as somehow morally superior to those of Islam, there is no point in this thread continuing. Your inability to hold together a cohesive argument and to retain any sort of historical accuracy thanks to your rabid Christian bias is plain for all to see, good work making an embarassment out of yourself. I'll save you from any further self humiliation as my points have been vindicated with historical research and evidence, unlike yours which are simply a twisting of words and empty, inequitable rhetoric.
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