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Muslim Spain
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Aelfgifu View Drop Down
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslim Spain
    Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 08:04

Tolerance is a rather relative term. In order to discuss it, some consensus to what it means is necessary. After all, in a time where thinking differently can get you killed, being allowed to live as long as you pay lots of taxes and keep your mouth shut is heavenly tolerance, even though nowadays it would be seen as horrible discrimination.

Take also in consideration that when the 'other' can be used to earn money, tolerance rises enormously, whereas in times of need and scarcity, the 'other' is the ideal scapegoat, and tolerance falls again.
 
And when crimes are committed in the name or religion, one must always question whether it was committed because of religion, or whether religion was just the excuse used to get away with it.
 
In whatever time or place, tolerance is seldomly a case of altruism or culture. Tolerance and its absence is in many ways a side effect of politics and economy.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 31-Jul-2007 at 08:12

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Sikander View Drop Down
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 12:34
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

In whatever time or place, tolerance is seldomly a case of altruism or culture. Tolerance and its absence is in many ways a side effect of politics and economy.
 
Bingo!!! I wouldn't say it better.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 15:48
 
Originally posted by Sikander

There were several, and contested, reforms in the "Spanish" Church towards convertig the mozarabic rite into the procedures imposed by Rome. But Mozarabic rite was very old
My point was that it was Catholic and accepted by Rome (even though it wasn't the preferred Roman rite). Several different rites are accepted by Rome.
 
I snipped the rest because I agreed.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 15:52
 
Originally posted by Sikander

It wasn't Catholicism! At that time there was no such thing, only the "Roman" Church (encompassing both West and Byzantium) and some Eastern Churches like the Armenian or the Coptic, for instance.
I doubt Akolouthos and other Orthodox Christians will agree with you there. Or the Copts for that matter.
The Catholic Church has existed since the Apostles' first ministry. Before Peter ever got to Rome in fact.
The Visigothic king converted because, as Arians, they were not accepted by the population who considered as heretic: the locals prefered instead the Byzantines who ruled Southern Hispania because these belonged to the aproved Church.
The division between "Roman" and "Greek" Churches was performed a few centuries later.
And both remained Catholic, as they had always been. And still are.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 31-Jul-2007 at 15:52
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 16:16
You bet, the full name of the "Catholic" church is "Roman Catholic Church" or the Catholic Church based on the city of Rome!
 
The Orthodox, Coptic and other churches are also "Catholic" as far as I know. Catholic mean "Universal" with was the dream of St. Paul.
 
Pinguin
 
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 16:30
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Sikander

It wasn't Catholicism! At that time there was no such thing, only the "Roman" Church (encompassing both West and Byzantium) and some Eastern Churches like the Armenian or the Coptic, for instance.
I doubt Akolouthos and other Orthodox Christians will agree with you there. Or the Copts for that matter.
The Catholic Church has existed since the Apostles' first ministry. Before Peter ever got to Rome in fact.


Quite right you are, gcle. Heck, I don't think Janus and most Catholics would agree with that either. I don't believe I can recall ever having heard of any Church being called Roman before the Schism--except, of course, for the local church at Rome.

-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 31-Jul-2007 at 16:31
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 19:29
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by es_bih

 
A lot of Leonardo's posts over the last few months smack of Western Supremacy actually it is not hard to notice after reading them.
 
 
 
 
 
Probably you are not a good reader ... Please, take note of two simple facts:
 
1. I don't believe even in the existence of a "Western World" (as I don't believe in the so called Judeo - Christian roots of Europe, the hyphen doesn't exist at all Big%20smile)
 
2. My polemical posts are always a reaction caused by exceedingly biased posts of other forumers.
 
 
Regards.



If I am wrong I apologize for any insulted, however, your posts do have some seemingly Western biases. As far as other forumers and their biases that is not my buisness, however, my post was not meant to have any bias, nor should it be viewed as such, as it was never written with any bias.
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 12:39

Well, I guess you may be right with the "Caholicism" think. Nevertheless this issue goes way beind the discussion scope.

What do you know about the movement of the Andalusian sufis? I know that it was wide-spread in the least controled parts of the Andaluz, like the Garb. But  don't know if it was particular to some social groups, like the Berbers or the Muladis, or it was popular among the Arabs as well.

In Portugal, and I'm sure in some Spanish places as well, there's a lot of "morabitos", i.e., old places of reunion and pray of the sufi communities that later became shrines (the community's leader was usualy burried there). After the Reconquista the morabitos were obviously transformed into chapels.
 
Some photos of morabitos:


Edited by Sikander - 01-Aug-2007 at 12:46
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 12:15

I found this interesting character while I was researching the Muslim/Arab presence in the Garb al-Andaluz (at the Douro region). I think it reflects a little bit the un-religious, opportunistic environment in the High Middle Ages Iberia. Ive posted it on Wikipedia.

 

Ibn Marwn (Abd al Rahmn Ibn Marwn ibn Yūnus), aka Ibn al-Djillīqui (son of a Galician) was a muladi whose family had come from northern Portugal and settled near Merida.

 

In 868 AD, leading a host of muladin and mozarabs, he rebelled against Emir Mohammed I and after a heroic resistance he got honourable surrendering terms from the Emir and was given Badajoz whom he started to fortify.

Knowing of an incoming attack by the Emirate forces, he fled northwards settling in the castle of Karkar (Carquere, near Lamego, Portugal). Afterwards, at Ibn Marwns request, D. Afonso III of Len sent him auxiliary troops and the combined army defeated the Emirate forces. Returning to Badajoz, now a well fortified city, he ruled the whole of the Garb. His dynasty ruled until 930AD.

 

Used bibliography:

VELOZO, Francisco Jos, UmMuulmano Precursor da Independncia Portuguesa: Bem Marvo, o Galego in O Islo, n. 5, Agosto 1969

CAMPOS, Jos A. Correia de - Monumentos da antiguidade rabe em Portugal, pgs. 111 a 112
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