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Topic ClosedA small request.

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terörist

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: A small request.
    Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 06:48
Be carefull when you use terms like "Communist","Capitalist" ,"Christian","Muslim"etc.If the subject talks generally about the theory of Communism or Capitalism or generally about Christianity and Islam etc then there is no problem.But if the topic focuses to a specific country,e.g China,try to avoid it.It's more preferable to say "Chinese Communists",rather than simply "Communists" because when you use that term you generalize and you create stereotypes about all the people who follow the same ideology or religion.The same for Capitalists,the same for Christians (Orthodox,Catholic,Protenstant etc),the same for Muslims(Sounite and Siite) etc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 15:59
You are right. I also want to add something.People easily accuse together such as you are a communist1 for ex. I am not happy with these kind of situations.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:41
It's a good thing to know that at least someone agrees with me!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:52
Originally posted by Spartakus

It'sa good thing to know that at least someone agrees with me!


I agree with you as well, Spartakus.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:56
I know comrade,i know.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 16:56

I think the most over used term is "Fascist."

How many here really know what the term means?  I'll bet most who use it don't have the faintest idea what the meaning or background of the term is.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:39

I agree, although I believe there is a difference between generalizing for the sake of stereotyping, and generalizing for the sake of bringing together different belief systems into a greater ideological category. As always, however, it is best to be careful, and tone matters a great deal. Well, that's just what I (a communistic capitalist/militaristic pacifist/agnostic Christian) think .

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 04:40
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

I think the most over used term is "Fascist."

How many here really know what the term means?  I'll bet most who use it don't have the faintest idea what the meaning or background of the term is.



Fascist means totalitarian: it is correctly applied to:
  • People who rejoice on the damage caused by their weapons on civilians
  • People who consider that it's ok to cause damage on others as long as there's a nationalist/patriotic excuse behind
  • People who have a dogma and want everybody else to accept it (i.e. fundamentalists)
  • People who believe that their nation/race/faith is better than the rest
  • People who don't think that Human Rights apply but in their own case
  • People who favor the existence of ghettos/neocolonies in our unified World
  • Etc.
Sadly the term fascist has not lost its ability to correctly describe the most pernicious realities in our world. Sadly humans can still be described well with that term.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 07:10
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

I think the most over used term is "Fascist."

I agree with that. Many people (unfortunately most of them are leftist) call everyone who is both right wing/conservative and authoritarian fascist. I think that's much too simple, and makes a caricature out of fascism. Authoritarian conservatives prefer to keep things the same, while fascists are in a certain sense revolutionary. Fascists therefore want to infringe on every level and part of society, including families, churches, etc., which is something authoritarian conservatives don't do.
Furthermore authoritarian conservatives usually want to switch off public opinion, while fascists mobilize public opinion for their own cause.

For these reasons I don't consider people like Salazar or Pinochet fascist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 08:54
You emphasize the less relevant characteristics of fascisms. Mussolini or Franco didn't make torch parades. You are blinded by the unique characteristics of Nazism.

Mussolini did like some exotic parafernalia... but he was a Leo: he liked to attract attention.

Fascism is synonim of right-wing authoritarism - and I admit that you can use it also for left-wing authoritarism, particularly Stalinism, though it loses its meaning largely because of its socialist character (Stalin nationalized much more than Lenin ever did).


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:05
Originally posted by Maju

You emphasize the less relevant characteristics of fascisms.

I don't think those characteristics are irrelevant. In fact the public opinion one is extremely relevant, because of that fascist regimes (unlike most authoritarian conservative ones) enjoy the support of most (or in any case a large part) of the population. And the revolutionary character of fascism makes it much more dangerous than authoritarian conservatism.

Mussolini or Franco didn't make torch parades.

I'm not sure what you mean with torch parades, but I think Mussolini did make them.

And Franco is a bit of the odd one out. In his early years he was undeniably a fascist, but in his later years he was much less so. I think he converted his dictatorship to an 'ordinary' authoritarian conservative dictatorship, in order not to suffer the same fate as Mussolini and Hitler.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 22:31
Franco never risked the fate of Mussolini: he was an ally of the allies as well. He was cared by the USA - and he was always a fascist.

You put the emphasis in the trivia, not in the essence.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 12:36
You put the emphasis in the trivia, not in the essence.

I think those 'trivia' are very much part of the essence. Without populism/mass agitation and attempts to thougoughly change the society fascism is not fascism.

Many leftists tend to call every rightwing authoritarian regime they don't like fascist, which both blurrs the definition of fascism and diverts attention from real fascism. If we want to prevent the rise of a new fascism, we shouldn't  label people 'fascist' too easily, it's counterproductive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 21:45
Fascism is not fascism then, because fascism has never attempted to change society.

There's nothing specific in fascism that isn't in other unspecific right-wing authoritarisms since the times of Sharrukin. The only thing is that maybe they copied some paraphernalia from Socialism, particularly Stalinism - but that was just aesthetics. You don't judge a political ideology for the aesthetics but for the substance.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 08:33
Originally posted by Maju

Fascism is not fascism then, because fascism has never attempted to change society.

It did. The Germany and Italy of 1940 were definately very different from the Germany and Italy of 1920.

There's nothing specific in fascism that isn't in other unspecific right-wing authoritarisms since the times of Sharrukin. The only thing is that maybe they copied some paraphernalia from Socialism, particularly Stalinism - but that was just aesthetics. You don't judge a political ideology for the aesthetics but for the substance.

I think it's the other way around. Conservative authoritarian regimes have borrowed some of the aesthetics of fascism (Peron and Vargas are good examples of this) without becoming fascist themselves.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 20:39
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Maju

Fascism is not fascism then, because fascism has never attempted to change society.

It did. The Germany and Italy of 1940 were definately very different from the Germany and Italy of 1920.


Sure: the Chile of Pinochet was also very diferent of democratic and socialist Chile. The Spain of Franco was sdefinitively diferent that the Spain of the Republic. The Portugal of Salazar was totally diferent from the democratic Portugal before his coup.

sh*t happens, you know.


There's nothing specific in fascism that isn't in other unspecific right-wing authoritarisms since the times of Sharrukin. The only thing is that maybe they copied some paraphernalia from Socialism, particularly Stalinism - but that was just aesthetics. You don't judge a political ideology for the aesthetics but for the substance.

I think it's the other way around. Conservative authoritarian regimes have borrowed some of the aesthetics of fascism (Peron and Vargas are good examples of this) without becoming fascist themselves.


Peron is a ver odd character and Peronism is as well. Go figure that the current leader of Argentina, friend of Lula and Chvez and fierce critic of Bush is a Peronist himself.

I'm not sure who's Vargas now. Dominican Republic maybe?

But if you say that South American military juntas like that of Pinochet weren't fascist, show me anything they are diferent at (apart of some mediatic approach, more a fashion of the 30s than a character of fascism itself).

Mussolini defined fascism but his regime wasn't diferent from other many militarist nationalist regimes that had existed before him since Napoleon or Cromwell or would exist after him.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 06:59
I think it is a very good idea.


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