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Kingdom of Champa

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kingdom of Champa
    Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 04:27
Chams are/were Malay. The same type of seafaring Malay as those still living in Patani in southern Thailand, and Kelantan and Terengganu in Penisular Malaysia. As were those that once lived in the ancient Cambodian kingdom of Funan. The peninsular-coastal Malay belt, or crescent, in the early centuries AD, formed a contiguous corridor from Kedah, Pahang, Terengganu and Kelantan in the Malay Peninsula, through Patani and Negara Seri Dharmaraja (Nakhon Si Thammarat) in today's Thailand, through Funan in today's southern Cambodia, through to Champa in today's central and southern Vietnam.
 
There were thus already 3 - 4 formal Malay realms on the SEA mainland around the 100 - 200 AD period. The Langkasukan confederation, roughly grouping Kedah, Patani, Kelantan, Terengganu and perhaps northern Pahang in the Malay Peninsula; (possibly) Funan; and Champa.
 
That time, of course, there were no religious barriers yet dividing the Malays on one side, and the Mons and Khmers on the other, as do exist today, and they mixed and interbred freely between them.
 
The jury is still out, whether Malays ruled as an elite minority aristocracy then got defeated, in Funan, which had a mixed, Mon-Khmer-Malay citizenry, or whether they were indeed always submissive to the more numerous native Khmers there.
 
The terms Polynesian & Austronesian are merely recent western inventions unknown to those ancient mainlandic Malays. All they knew was that they were all Malay people.
 
They can still converse almost completely with one another using their own respective Malay dialects. There is still much common lexicon between the local Malay dialects of Patani-Kelantan-Terengganu Malays and Cham Malays. One example I can recall off-hand is 'chak' (pronounced 'chok') for a hoe, whereas Malays further south and west in the Malay Peninsula call the hoe a 'changkul' (today spelt 'cangkul').


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 07-Apr-2010 at 20:56
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 20:45
Originally posted by TranHungDao

The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders.  They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.  Vietnam overran Champa in 1471, massacring 10's of thousands and taking as many as slaves.  Many others fled to Malaya, Cambodia and Hainan Island.  Needless to say, the relationship between the Vietnamese and the Chams was a 1000 year old blood feud.

They were tough adversaries.  Militarily, they did better against the Vietnamese than the Mongols ever did.
Now, I'm not so sure if your post is a statement of derision or one of admiration. It seems to have contained both elements.Wink
 
As for the piracy, I think many, if not most, tribes or nations which had any significant access to the sea would have had pirates among them, at one time or other in their history. Vikings and Norsemen; North African Barbary; Arabs; Mycaenian Greeks; mediaeval Spaniards, Portuguese and Anglo-Saxons; Chinese and Japanese; Javanese and Buginese Indonesians; the Lanun Malays; Indians; Khmer Cambodians; the Siamese etc. etc. etc. The Cham were just one among many.
 
That doesn't mean the pirates were always sanctioned by their formal governments, or their general populace. A few grains of sand doesn't make a coast. A few drops of water doesn't make an ocean.
 
Maybe Viets didn't get around to piracy because their kingdom was so small and fenced in on all sides at first, their coastline so insignificantly short,Tongue before they conquered formerly Cham and Khmer lands.
 
Chams were a thorn in the side of Viets? After you guys had grabbed all their land, and (in your own words) massacred 10's of thousands of their people, you mean? Wow! I believe it'd be more correct to say that the Viets were a thorn in the side of the Cham. The thorn that eventually destroyed the entire flesh.Cry


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 07-Apr-2010 at 21:32
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 21:18
  Three points. First, Panduranga continued to exist as a vassal state of the Nguyen Lords until 1832, when emperor Minh Mang terminated his ancestors agreement with the Cham and took steps to expell many of them. 'Panduranga' the vassal state covered the Central Vietnamese coast from Nha Trang (former Kauthara) down through Phan Rang and Phan Thiet. Essentially, this meant that the coast was left to the Cham, while the Vietnamese filled in the narrow valleys of the interior. Thus Khanh Hoa and Dien Khanh predate modern Nha Trang, which was founded by Yersin.

Second, the Cham were hardly occasional pirates. But then, they were also hardly the only pirates on the South China Sea. One disadvantage to the fractured political unity of the Malay peoples was that piracy against others, to include other Malay states, was considered fair play. The French School of the Far East (EFEO) has surveys of the wide varieties of watercraft used in Vietnam that notes both Cham and Chinese maritime architectural models. I would suggest that many Cham were simply absorbed into the Central Vietnamese population, though a survey of Cham overseas communities was recently published in Vietnam. (AFAIK, Vietnamese only - No English so far)

Finally, the Cham were not the only Malays of Indochina. The Jarai, Rhade, and Raglai were racially akin to the Cham (Malayo-Polynesians in the scientific term of the day) and considered by some to be 'Upland Cham'.  In fact, the name used for the Central Highlands by the United Front for the Struggle of Oppressed Races was "The High Dega Plateaus of Champa" (Source: Letter, President Y-Bham Enoul, No. 346-FLC, 9 August 1965, published in "Tiger Men", Barry Petersen, p. 153). 


Edited by lirelou - 07-Apr-2010 at 21:21
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 21:44
I have a Cham friend, a Cambodian citizen, now holding a mid-level post in the Cambodian government. He says, that the Cham in Vietnam have little freedom of choice. Little empowerment. Forced assimilation. 'Highly oppressed'Cry would be the sum inference.
 
But Cambodian Cham, he says, are now beginning to enjoy greater rights and empowerment, as a minority, under the new post-Khmer Rouge administration.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 07-Apr-2010 at 21:50
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 06:28
Highly oppressed is overstatement. They can practice their religion, whether Muslim or Hindu, they can travel in country without special permits, and they can live in traditional houses and wear traditional clothing. They are no more oppressed by the government than anyone else, but they are likely more aware of the limitations. They are certainly not as carefully watched as the Jarai Christians are, but you can be sure that the Cham Bani are being carefully monitored for signs of fundamentalism. They are certainly subject to the same petty Vietnamese racism that all Central and Southern minorities are, but this has more to do with Vietnamese culture and the aftermath of Minh Mang's expulsion or assimilation policies. One of the few good things I will ever say about this government is that such racism is not government policy, but reflects the government's inability to overcome long held cultural attitudes.  As for assimilation, that is not necessarily a bad thing. At present, Vietnam is a far more stable and economically viable country than Cambodia. 
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 06:28
'Forced assimilation is not a necessarily a bad thing'.
 
Yeah, right.
 
But somehow, for some funny reason, your ancient ancestors spent 1,000 years resisting assimilation by Chinese. Ummm ...Sleepy
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 09:03
Shield, I didn't say 'forced'. That's your choice of words.  Cung, phai noi toi khong mot nguoi viet. Toi la nguoi My. Also, I should say that I am not a Viet. I am an Irish-Franco-American who actually fought in the war with FULRO affiliated troops, and went to an occasional celebration with a Cham parachute company based in Nha Trang.

My Vietnamese commander in the Pleiku MIKE Force was Major Ton That Thuan. If you don't recognize the name 'Ton That', it is a branch of the Nguyen royal family. Major Thuan's physical features were very Malay, as are many Central Vietnamese (He was from Hue. More than likely, a Cham was an ancestor on the maternal side.) Unlike some Asian governments (such as the Koreans), the government of Vietnam is quite willing to acknowledge that modern Vietnamese are the genetic and cultural amalgam of earlier peoples, to include the Cham. Yes, it would have been nice if Minh Mang had never ended Panduranga, and it continued to exist today as a self-governed entity within Vietnam, but that was never really an option. There is simply no way that any minority groups could have held their territories once the war was ended and the population rate began to take off. Ninety million VIetnamese engaged primarily in agriculture will move into whatever space is needed.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 17:58

I have no idea Lierlou is Vietnamese or not but Lirelou have learn the Vietnamese history from pro Vietnamese books too much then. After that you start to objectively analyse the part which you can not find in these books. If assmilation is good thing, let's ask ourself, Palestine is happy accept Israel assimilation or Israel welcome palestine assimilation. Or if you are irish origin. Do you welcome British assimilation or not? So most of the assimlation in this world is happend by FORCE for sure.

Cham ethnic as well as all other minority ethnic inside Vietnam are not equal to "Kinh" ethnic (the majority ethnic in Vietnam) especially in political practice. It's hard to find any Cham who have a position in the goverment, the highest they could have is the head of their own Cham village consist of maximum 100 households. But Cham community in Cambodia are doing better in this point. Combodia goverment have given chances for them.

If Lirelou said Vietnam economy is better than Cambodia. Why don't we compare with other regional nation like Singapore, Malaysia, even with Thailand. Vietnam economy is still 100 years behind Singapore, 50 years behind Malaysia or 30 years behind Thailand.

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 02:52
Originally posted by unclesam2009

Cham ethnic as well as all other minority ethnic inside Vietnam are not equal to "Kinh" ethnic (the majority ethnic in Vietnam) especially in political practice. It's hard to find any Cham who have a position in the goverment, the highest they could have is the head of their own Cham village consist of maximum 100 households. But Cham community in Cambodia are doing better in this point. Combodia goverment have given chances for them.
That's more or less like the type of story I've herd from Cham friends, plus the personal impression I get from my few visits to Cambodia and Vietnam.
 
Could be because to the Viet, the Cham were a former ancient arch enemy. Whereas to the Khmer Cambodians, the Cham were simply occassional rivals.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 12-Apr-2010 at 02:55
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  Quote papen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 05:22
I read TranHungDao's post and even for me, as a Vietnamese. I feel pretty offended. Pirates and slave traders were practiced by every countries in ancient time, not just Champa.

Perhaps this is why the Vietnamese state of Van Lang, circa 700-600 BCE was so easily conquered by a handful of refugees from a conquered Yueh state to establish the short lived state of Au Lac in about 257 BCE.  Au Lac also occupied the Red River Delta and is considered to be Vietnamese.  It was conquered & annexed by Tried Da (in 207 BCE) who established Nam Viet in 211 BCE, which was headquartered in what is now Canton, China.


This is so wrong. The name Yue (or Yuet in Cantonese, no such thing as yueh) is a given name of the Qin kingdom (china) to any tribes in the South of China. They were not Yue refugees or whatever. Van Lang was a country of Lạc people (Luo Yue), and Âu Lạc (Ou Luo) was formed after the tribe of An Duong Vuong won the war against Hung Vuong and merged both tribes Âu Việt Ou Yue and Lạc Việt Luo Yue. That's why the country named Âu Lạc. Even for the kingdom Nan Yue. I don't think it's a kingdom of Han people. When Zhou Tuon marched to southern China, he only brang 200.000+ Han soldiers with him. And Nan Yue kingdom was big, his Han soldiers only took around 20-30% of the population. So saying the Yue refugee invaded Viet country because of Han people was wrong. Zhou Tuo needed Yue people to form his own kingdom Nan Yue as China changed a new king and he didn't want to follow the new emperor. He was treated as a traitor for not following the new emperor, and so his soldiers. They were stucked in the South and had no choice but to form the kingdom Nan Yue.

1.  Vietnamese, or rather the people of the Red River Delta, had were the center of the Dong Son culture, which was the first to do bronze casting.
2.  The Vietnamese also invent wet rice cultivation.  The rice growing world grows rice by this method.

There's no source say that the people of Dong Son culture was the 1st to do bronze casting.
Vietnamese didn't invent wet rice cultivation. According to my research in both China and Vietnam's history. The 1st king of Vietnam was Hung Vuong was the son of Lac Long Quan, and Lac Long Quan was the 2nd/3rd generation of Shen Nong (Cultivation God of China). Wet rice cultivation was in the whole southern china + SEA in almost the same time.

Military attempts againts Da Viet were made only in Khublai Khan's period as he was tempted to launch military conquest to abroad. However Vietnam have never been important for Mongols as was China during Yuan dynasty. Imagine whether they find enough treasure in Vietnam's jungle as in Persia and China?

In the whole history, China invaded Vietnam 26 times. As Vietnam was a part of Nan Yue and as well a province of China for almost 1000 years, and so China always though that Vietnam was a part of China.

Well, from what TranHungDao wrote, I could see there's really a lack of Chinese History. In ancient time, China was not always a united country. Vietnam was independent from Southern Han. And the Mongo who attacked Vietnam was not Khublain Khan but his son who wanted to show off, also there's a deadline's pressure of conquering the South.

And do you know why Vietnam can beat Champa at that time. i think you understand well the Huyen Tran princess & Che Man King marriage, in which Tran Nhan Tong purposely settle an marriage for political purpose.

not only that, but the most importance was weapon. Vietnam fighted with China a lot, as well as Champa attacked us (there's a time Cham army almost reached Viet capital), we couldn't conquer Champa not until we had guns.

Back to the Cham's problem. In my opinion, I think it's the same as America Indian in America. As I know, many of Cham people in Vietnam still kept their culture as well as speak their language (learn Vietnamese as 2nd language) but they're still poor as they only want to live in their Cham community. They don't want to adapt. I studied in Vietnam and I know Vietnam's education give extra credits to minor ethic students. But most of them dropped out schools to help their families or just didn't want to study.


Edited by papen - 04-Nov-2010 at 05:52
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 10:28
A few points, Papen.

First, not all Chinese 'invasions' were true invasions. Since the King of Vietnam was a vassal of the Chinese emperor, he had the right to call upon China for military assistance when threatened by rebellion. This happened several times during the Trinh-Nguyen period, as well as during the Tay Son rebellion. (That is also true for Korea, another vassal of China.) That the Chinese viewed Vietnam as both a friendly state and ally is amply demonstrated by the numbers of Ming Chinese refugees who rfeceived permission to settle in Vietnam (and Cambodia). Mac Cu'u comes to mind, as his settlement of Southern Cambodia was what awakened Kinh interest in the Mekong Delta.

Second, regarding the Cham, they were not always 'hereditary enemies" of Vietnam. The Nguyen Lordsn allowed Panduranga to survive long after 1471. It was only after the Nguyen dynasty was established, and Minh Mang came to the throne, that the Cham were regarded as an emeny that had to be expelled or assimilated. All of Vietnam's assimilation projects point back to Minh Mang. The Nguyen Lords were quite happy with a multi-ethnic state.
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  Quote papen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 02:38
Well. From what I read, China really sent army over to attack. Of course there's a possibility that some of them might not be a real invasion. Besides, as you said Vietnamese King had the right to call upon China's military assistance, it's true. However, if my Vietnamese history was not wrong, Vietnamese tried never ask Chinese for help (not until fighting the French and South Vietnam), even when Vietnamese had the civil war between Trinh-Nguyen (Đằng Trong - Đằng Ngoài). As Vietnam was a new country after she broke free from China in 938. Even until the Trinh Nguyen war (1627), it's not a peaceful country (Mongol invasion (Yuan dynasty) from 1257-1288, Champa 1377-1383, occupation 1407,etc). The reason Vietnam became a vassal state of China because Vietnam couldn't deal with both China and Champa at the same time. In the other hand, China also had it's own civil wars to deal with. However, whenever China gained back it's power, it always tried to claim back Vietnam. For example the invasion of Ming dynasty in 1407. Ming sent troops under the name of helping Vietnam, but then later it annexed Vietnam with Ming Empire with the reason that Vietnam had no king for the throne.



As you can see in the map, many times Vietnam was a province of China. That's the reason why many Vietanamese people now is worrying about the Paracel Islands. As I know, Vietnam won't never give up on the islands, but then if Vietnam keep resisting China, it could use that reason to invade Vietnam 1 more time like what it did in the past.

I agree with you on the point Cham was not always a hereditary enemies. I remember there's a mass immigration of Cham people during Minh Mang time. During Nguyen time, only the royal Cham families ran away.


Edited by papen - 05-Nov-2010 at 02:54
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 13:43
Please notice that I never said that China "never" invaded Vietnam. I merely pointed out that many so called "Chinese invasions" were in fact military expeditions to assist the King of Vietnam based upon his request for such assistance. I suspect that the nationalist view of Chinese invasions has something to do with Minh Mang's ordered rewrite of all the official court histories, but Professor Li Tana would be the expert there.

As for the paracels, no less than five countries claim them. That is a mess that only some international tribunal can sort out. Otherwise, the side with the largest navy will prevail. My gut feeling is that if first discovery and exploration is the deciding factor, then the Malay countries have the stronger claim (Indo., Malaysia, and the Philippines) as they have the longest tradition of sea-faring inthe region. Assuming that someone cannot tie the people who inhabited Oc Eo to modern Vietnam. 
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2010 at 23:10
Originally posted by papen

There's no source say that the people of Dong Son culture was the 1st to do bronze casting.
.......
 
 
 
 
Right. The old Ban Chiang people (who lived in whats now Thailand) were working earlier (ca 2000 BC or even earlier) with bronze than the  Dong Son people (ca 700 BC )
 
Originally posted by papen


Vietnam fighted with China a lot, as well as Champa attacked us (there's a time Cham army almost reached Viet capital), we couldn't conquer Champa not until we had guns.
...

  
Whats meant with “almost reached... ” ?
The Chams, under their king Che Bong Nga destroyed the  Viet capital Thang Long at least twice (actually thrice according some scholars). The 1371 and 1376 destructions are well documented.
Georges Maspero’s classic work Le Royaume du Champa ( 1928; English version 2002) cites the old Vietnamese chronicles themselves on this issue. They describe the events related to the Cham conquests of the capital, the pillaging, the clashes etc.
 
 
Star


Edited by Sander - 06-Nov-2010 at 23:27
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 10:14
And after the defeat of Champa, numbers of Cham prisoners were re-settled in the North around Thanh Long, which suggests that any genetic survey of the Red River Delta should pick up some traces of Cham markers in modern Vietnamese. It may at times have been an unhappy experience for the minorities, but from the Nguyen Lords forward, all Vietnamese states have eschewed the 'pure race' nationalism that one finds in Japan and Korea. Vietnam is willing to recognize minorities as a part of the nation and its historical experiences, though under Ming Mang's rule and Ngo Dien Diem's government, the authoritarian push for forced assimilation earned both the opposition and distrust of minority populations.
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