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Are Islam and democracy compatible really
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Spartakus 
Tsar 
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
 Topic: Are Islam and democracy compatible reallyPosted: 08-Jun-2006 at 18:27 |
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Spartakus,
You have started with declaring that Turkey is an undemocractic state beacause it does not have socialist and lefist parties. I stated that Turkey is not a proper democracy,not an undemocratic State.And i stated many other reasons too,in the beginning.Read carefully next time.
Unless this small Turkish Community forming a part of the Turkish Race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA (The Greek Cypriot underground organisation fighting for ENOSIS, the annexation of Cyprus to Greece) can never be considered as terminated. (From speech delivered by Archbishop Makarios at Panayia village on 4 September 1962)
Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. EOKA's policy was not a formal policy of the Hellenic State.And while EOKA was fighting the British occupation,Turkish-Cypriots were making dinner to their anglo-saxonic rulers....How many Hellens are in Constantinople today?1.000 maybe?And how many Muslims are in Western Thrace?120.000 maybe?
Turkey is not a police state. Don't speak nonsense and try to be objective.
Tell that to the Kurds.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 18:34 |
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If Left parties can't gather popular support that's their problem, how is it that an Islamist rooted government could be freely elected? explain that.
1.Borders with the USSR
2.USA-NATO
3.Kemalists
4.Islamists
5.Military
If a true Communistic Party managed to enter the Parliament with a strong percentage ,then the whole structure of the Turkish political scene,as well as foreign policy,would severely changed.No one of the above wants sth like this.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 18:45 |
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CHP (Kemalist) is a left-wing party.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 18:52 |
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When challenged for a second time, you start blaming public opinion, and the Turkish public for not electing the commies into parliament. This is ridiculous ... What is your point? There are certainly much better ways to prove Turkey is "undemocratic" than the lack of commies in parliament. And judging from the headline on their website ( Turkey shall be saved from Israel
 ) I am actually glad they are not in parliament or have any influence on Turkish foreign policy.
Oh plz,cut the bullsh*t.I never accused public opinion,i clearly said that the public opinion is formed by the existant political power.Proper democracy,means all voices allowed to speak without control,domestic or foreing,and to form their electorate freely.The leftists did not enjoy that privilege.Let's hope that sth will change with the EU(Although EU is also against Communistic Parties). |
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 18:56 |
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Spartakus
EOKA's policy was not a formal policy of the Hellenic State.
The Greek Junta? the fact that EOKA members are today governing in Greek Cyprus? the idea of Enosis, the coups etc etc common now don't be so one-sided.
1.Borders with the USSR
2.USA-NATO
3.Kemalists
4.Islamists
5.Military
If a true Communistic Party managed to enter the Parliament with a strong percentage ,then the whole structure of the Turkish political scene
If the people wanted a far-Left government they could vote them in, simple as.
Did you ever care to think, maybe the people don't want this?
Why should Turkey destroy its own interests? and since when did was a democracy determined by having a Leftist government in power.
America isn't ruled by Leftists does this make it un-democratic, this is such a flawed argument. |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Omar al Hashim
King 
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 21:03 |
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No, you did it in the 20's. That whole region has a terrible history, and no country is innocent. Pellopensus was once inhabited by Slavs and Goths you know. |
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Neoptolemos
Colonel 
Joined: 02-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 659 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 21:25 |
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@ Bg_turk and Bulldog
Digenis wrote: "Militarism,problems with basic human rights,police state,opression of minorities,limited freedom of speech... want more?" Spartakus wrote: "Turkey can be considered a democracy,but it is far away to be considered a proper democracy.Why?Minorities,"white cages",no leftist parties allowed to operate,military too powerfull etc." There is the forest and there is a tree in the forest (leftish parties). You can choose to consentrate in the tree and forget about the forest all you like, but this is not going to change the reality; the forest will still be there. -------------------------------------- @ Omar al Hashim There is a huge difference between peace-time and war-time, so your counter-example is irrelevant. |
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Lmprs
Arch Duke 
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 23:52 |
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I can tell it to my Kurdish friends at school or perhaps to my relatives from my father's side. Not all Kurds are PKK militans, why can't you accept it? |
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 23:56 |
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Not again, I am tired of proving it. It is clearly stated in its constitution. Just because you are a leftist Greek your arch-rival doesn't have to be a right-winger. |
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 00:01 |
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Of course Turkey is not a proper democracy. Who is denying it anyway? But it is not a police state either. And I think leftist-rightist concept is different in each country. In Turkey left-wing seems to be more authoritarian, while rightists are rather libertarian. That's the reason Spartakus doesn't consider CHP as a left-wing party. Edited by barish - 09-Jun-2006 at 00:02 |
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Akolouthos
Sultan 
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 01:19 |
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At the risk of breaking up the growing Turkocentric discussion, I would like to posit my opinion of the original question:
Islam is no less compatible than any other major monotheistic religion as far as it's premises go. It is all about interpretation.
And back to the discussion at hand:
Everyone involved in the present argument should take these two true statements to heart. Course that's only my opinion, but bravo barish for summing up the situation!
-Akolouthos
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 04:37 |
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The Greek Junta? the fact that EOKA members are today governing in Greek Cyprus? the idea of Enosis, the coups etc etc common now don't be so one-sided.
Try to study history next time.Hellenic Hunta was installed in 1967,not in 1962-63.So what EOKA members are in the goverment.They helped in the liberation of the island from the British occupation while Turkish-Cypriots were making them dinner........
If the people wanted a far-Left government they could vote them in, simple as.
Did you ever care to think, maybe the people don't want this?
Why should Turkey destroy its own interests? and since when did was a democracy determined by having a Leftist government in power. Stop being so naive and look what's happening around you.There is no way that a far-left goverment would be installed in Turkey ,during the Cold War or even now.For the reasons i've stated.
No, you did it in the 20's.
That whole region has a terrible history, and no country is innocent. Pellopensus was once inhabited by Slavs and Goths you know. Oh GOD!Slavs and Goths did not even existed when the Hellenic State was founded in 1830s.We are talking about Modern History,not medieval one.And in the 20's we traded muslims with Orthodox people,according to a treaty,we did not kicked them out .There is a great difference in that.
It is clearly stated in its constitution.
Just because you are a leftist Greek your arch-rival doesn't have to be a right-winger. It's not the Constitution that defibes what you are,but the policies.And the policies are rightist.
can tell it to my Kurdish friends at school or perhaps to my relatives from my father's side.
Not all Kurds are PKK militans, why can't you accept it? And there are Turks in Athens who left from Turkey in order to seek political sanctuary in Hellas.Just because you have some Kurds in school,this does not mean that all Kurds have a nice living or they are not being watched by MIT.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 05:00 |
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The purpose of EOKA was not the "liberation" of the island from Britain, but its subjugation by Greece. EOKA sought ENOSIS and union with Greece, and Turks on the island knew too well what that would mean for them from their past experience in Crete and its annexation with greece. To portray EOKA as liberators when they wanted to turn cyprus into some obscure greek province is unserious and this at a time when Greece was a millitary dictatorship, at least Britain was governing the island democratically. What kind of "liberators" would seek to replace a democratic government with a dictatorial one? EOKA were a terrorist organization that used terror to achieve its purposes - and killed many Brits, Turks and even leftist Greek Cypriots who disagreed with them.
so what? what's your point? the usa doesnt have a communist party in congress, does this imply it is less democratic. of course not. And in the 20's we traded muslims with Orthodox people,according to a treaty,we did not kicked them out. There is a great difference in that.
Please stop making unsupportable claims which are clearly wrong ... Macedonian refugees (either Turkish or Slavic) would certainly disagree that they were not kicked out. Villages were burnt, churches and mosques destroyed ... in Macedonia, in Crete. Some were not even lucky enough to be kicked out, they were massacred wholesale. And I think we discussed this so many times and I provided sources, and you keep on making these erroneous claims that muslims were not kicked out. Edited by bg_turk - 09-Jun-2006 at 05:04 |
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 08:27 |
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take a step back when approaching the question. Is the question about the religion itself or its followers? Religion isnt about politics- ideally - so i would even go there. For example asking; "is christianity modern?" or "is buddhism socialist?" fair questions?
The followers of islam have to be, understand or want democracy; for democary and islam to co-exist. This is a society question not religion, and one with history and economics in the mix. There is nothing to suggest that this is not (or cant be) the case. Warning: Asking is islam is compatible to democracy already loads the question from the outset, and then getting past that, we would all have to agree what is democratic. Edited by Leonidas - 09-Jun-2006 at 08:28 |
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Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 4613 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 08:32 |
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we have a thread on the aegean......
 turkish politics is very interesting, even unique in some ways, but turkey is but one example. If we want to ask is turkey democratic then lets discuss that in its own right. Edited by Leonidas - 09-Jun-2006 at 08:33 |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:08 |
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so what? what's your point? the usa doesnt have a communist party in congress, does this imply it is less democratic. of course not.
Don't compare a hyper-power situation,with a muppet State.It's totally stupid.
The purpose of EOKA was not the "liberation" of the island from Britain, but its subjugation by Greece. EOKA sought ENOSIS and union with Greece, and Turks on the island knew too well what that would mean for them from their past experience in Crete and its annexation with greece. To portray EOKA as liberators when they wanted to turn cyprus into some obscure greek province is unserious and this at a time when Greece was a millitary dictatorship, at least Britain was governing the island democratically. What kind of "liberators" would seek to replace a democratic government with a dictatorial one? EOKA were a terrorist organization that used terror to achieve its purposes - and killed many Brits, Turks and even leftist Greek Cypriots who disagreed with them.
What were Turkish-Cypriots doing when young Hellens were prisoned and tortured in British prisons on the island?What were Turkish-Cypriots doing against the British occupation?Nothing, because the only thing they cared about was to secure their own asses.EOKA wanted to liberate the island from the British ,for which the Turkish-Cypriots did nothing about .They did not care about Cyprus,but for themselves.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:21 |
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I'm really sorry but trying to justify the Eoka is absolutely ridiculous even more absurd is that you call yourself a Leftist and then attempt to support these extremists methods.
The un-amed Turkish Cypriots were on the verge of being exterminated off the face of Cyprus.
All this talk about doing nothing for "Cyprus" is ridiculous, the whole ideal of Enosis and EOKA regarding Cyprus was that it was Greek and would become part of Greece, why on Earth would you expect Turkish Cypriots to support such an idiotic ideology.
Unless this small Turkish Community forming a part of the Turkish Race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA (The Greek Cypriot underground organisation fighting for ENOSIS, the annexation of Cyprus to Greece) can never be considered as terminated. (From speech delivered by Archbishop Makarios at Panayia village on 4 September 1962)
How about the Akritas plan? or that Makarios actually ruled Cyprus.
General Grivas
Grivas said: "The Greek forces from Greece have come to Cyprus in order to impose the will of the Greeks of Cyprus upon the Turks. We want ENOSIS but the Turks are against it. We shall impose our will. We are strong, and we shall do so."
I mean these extremists were slaughtering Leftist Greeks aswell, the poor Turks on the island were left against an armed millitary force whose policy was to kill them off and annex the Island to Greece.
Now stop being so one-sided, your just digging a deep hole for yourself.
so what? what's your point? the usa doesnt have a communist party in congress, does this imply it is less democratic. of course not. Don't compare a hyper-power situation,with a muppet State.It's totally stupid.
Muppet state? so a superpower doesn't have to have a Communist party but other's do in order to PROVE how democratic they are?
Do you realise that to the "democratic" mindset of American's, Communism isn't really seen as being compatable with Democracy.
Would you support Turkey if it had a Communist part in government?
Edited by Bulldog - 09-Jun-2006 at 14:22 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:23 |
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Fighting for liberation, my  ! EOKA was fighting for union with Greece, plain and simple.Turkish Cypriots were happy under Brittish rule - at least their basic rights were respected and they were treated as equals. Why should they fight the Brittish and help a terrorist organization such as EOKA whose purpose was ENOSIS (union with Greece)? Why should the Turkish Cypriots want to make their island part of a hostile state, which would have most likely resulted in their extermination (like with the Cretan Turks when Crete was annexed to Greece)? |
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Giannis
Baron 
Joined: 25-May-2006 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 493 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:31 |
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Crete was annexed by Greece? How can you annex a place that is at the first place yours?
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 Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
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bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:39 |
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Crete was part of the Ottoman State. |
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