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Topic ClosedAre Islam and democracy compatible really

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Islam and democracy compatible really
    Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 20:48

Well are they?

Some people will bring up Turkey and here is what I have to say about that.

Turkey has gotten to where it is today (its secularism and semi democracy) by rejecting Islam.

Even today in Turkey the religous citizens dont have as much rights as the non religous citizens.  So the Turkish model seems to actually prove that if you want a secular, democratic nation, you need to force it.

More examples are that the shah's of Iran did not do enough to force secularism into the mainstream and therefore we have the mullah's today.  And the Egyptian and Palestinian examples also prove that in a democratic election where the radical religous parties are not controlled (like in Turkey) they will sweep to power. 

What do you all think? Can we get to democracy through Islam or do we have to do it by fighting Islam?

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 22:31
Your question is valid for any religion: Europe has not walked the path of democracy by following the Inquisition and bowing under "God-appointed" monarchs.

One must chose between liberty or rigid patterns. You can't be free in a cage... but, if you are addict, you can return to your cage all fridays...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 23:14

no, i dont agree. with christianity, it was never forced aside, the mentality was always more liberal then islam.

there were instances where religion had to be forced out of politics, but for the most part, religion and politics were almost always seperate because of the non religous monarchs.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 00:27
Originally posted by prsn41ife

no, i dont agree. with christianity, it was never forced aside, the mentality was always more liberal then islam.

there were instances where religion had to be forced out of politics, but for the most part, religion and politics were almost always seperate because of the non religous monarchs.

Don't forgett the witch hunt, inquisation and their victims who were burnt at the stake.

I agree with Maju when he says:"Your question is valid for any religion: Europe has not walked the path of democracy by following the Inquisition and bowing under "God-appointed" monarchs."

Maybe i will make a thread about "Heinrich Kramer" the german inquisator and his book "malleus malleficarum" (The Hammer of Witches or the Hexenhammer).



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 00:32
It is attitudes and values which need to be changed, rather than religion. If rigid Medieval Christianity, which actively promoted a society to mirror Heaven (i.e. an absolutist King playing the role of god, the bureaucrats and soldiers being archangels and cheribs) can become largely democratised, then so can the Islamic world. It will just require a separation of church and state and for social values to believe in in a strong legal system and democratic rule.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 00:42
There's a point in Christianity being a little less essentially political than Islam. After all Christianity developed for 3 centuries outside any state and even in opposition to it. But after Christianity becomes the oficial religion of the Roman Empire and its successor states, it became a very political religion.

I can understand though that Islam, which is born as a religious state (except for a brief forming period), and a very vigorous one, this separation of religion and state that Christians can found with the sentence "to Caesar what is of Caesar, to God what is of God" - that is a statement of apoliticism inside a context of the political nationalist Judaism of Jesus' and early Christian times.

But the essential question can be: did Mohammed concieve Islam without state or it concieved it as a political entity. I can't answer that... only Muslims can.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 02:46

Is Democracy compatible with Islam? Well, how many successful democratic islamic nations do you see?

The fundamentalists are more loudspoken than the "moderate" muslims. Some have said that they stay silent in other threads. How does staying silent help your case at all?

Democracy requires an acceptance of different thoughts and ideas, and at this time islam does not have this, so at this time, I do not think islam and democracy are very compatible. However, there could be a time.

But if the majority do wish to continue to be ruled in backward theocratic nations, I say let them have it their way.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 04:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 17:07

the thing with christianity it is that it is a pliable religion that adapts. that is why the christian world is mostly democratic today.

islam on the other had is strict and, for lack of a better word, backward in ideology, still clinging on beliefs, and rituals that are now obsolete.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 01:50

well here what i think

a secular country does NOT mean a Democratic country.

and stopping religiouse groups from participating in the governmnet isnt Democratic.

also prsn41life forcing people to belive in what they dont belive in isn't Democratic either. dont you think so?

and maju many muslims belive that islam is  the correct way God wanted people to live from brith to death. thats include politics. and politics in Islam does include how to have a peacfull relation with non-muslims.

if you looked at history you will see that the percentage of non-muslims lived in Islamic empires/states was much much higher than non-Christans lived in a Christan empires/states.

Islamic times of spain and portugal are very good example of that, a spanish told me that houses of Christans muslims and Jews in Alandalusia were together in the same areas not sperated or put into communities, a well known arab christan and arab Jewish scintists came from that period, and  when Christans kicked the Muslims and the Jews of Spain islamic states took them.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 02:49
Originally posted by strategos

Is Democracy compatible with Islam? Well, how many successful democratic islamic nations do you see?

And how many Christian countries were ruled by democracy in 1600's? Does this mean Christianity is not compatible with democracy? What is yoru point?

Why do you go that far even? Just in 1973? what was the "Christian" nation of Greek? A dictatorship under George Papadopoulos.

Originally posted by strategos

But if the majority do wish to continue to be ruled in backward theocratic nations, I say let them have it their way.

Well, to be more realistic. Those so called Christian nations that are democratic are not only silent about no democracy in the Middle East, but have supported raising dictators. In fact, in may parts of the world too including again George Papadopoulos' regime being supported by the United States.

So, maybe if the West remove its hands from supporting dictatorships through all contemporary history of the Middle East and from Shah of Iran to Qadafi, then maybe Middle East will be better.

However, I don't think this will happen. Realistically speaking, if the West will leave the Middle East politics alone for Democractice elections, maybe we will see more of Hamas stunning victories repeated again. Can they stand that? 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 02:54

well said cok gec.

they (the west) just need to leave us alone. politicaly wise.

but to be more realistic since they (the west again) created Israel they wont leave us alone ( politicaly wise again) not anytime soon.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 17:05
And how many Christian countries were ruled by democracy in 1600's?

Can I get a check on todays date?

 

 

maybe we will see more of Hamas stunning victories repeated again. Can they stand that? 

Maybe the question is, can the muslim world stand that? These terrorist groups and theocratic states do not make the middle east's image any better.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 17:50
Originally posted by azimuth

and maju many muslims belive that islam is  the correct way God wanted people to live from brith to death. thats include politics. and politics in Islam does include how to have a peacfull relation with non-muslims.

By peaceful, you mean blackmailing them: "convert, pay tribute or be invaded"?

I know it's not "convert" but "allow missions" - but at the same time Islam doesn't allow other religions (or anti-religious discourse) to be promoted in its domain.

That scheme is not valid for non-Muslims and tehrefore it can't be valid for Muslims either... unless Muslims want to be the pariahs of the World.


if you looked at history you will see that the percentage of non-muslims lived in Islamic empires/states was much much higher than non-Christans lived in a Christan empires/states.

Not actually. Look at the colonial empires: how many Muslims lived in British India? In French Algeria? Or in the Russian Empire?

When "Christian" countries have expanded over Islamic lands they have mostly respected Muslims - with the only exception of Iberia.

In contrast, how many non-Muslims are there in Northern Africa? In modern "secular" Turkey?

The situation has changed depending of the places and circumstances.


Islamic times of spain and portugal are very good example of that, a spanish told me that houses of Christans muslims and Jews in Alandalusia were together in the same areas not sperated or put into communities, a well known arab christan and arab Jewish scintists came from that period, and  when Christans kicked the Muslims and the Jews of Spain islamic states took them.



This is a topic on its own. Spain has always been a fundamentalist state. Also, in that time, the political principle in Europe was "cuius regio, eius religio", and Protestants and Catholics were also persecuted, the same that Cathars or Hussites had been in the past.

Apparently (some) Christian Spanish believed that Moriscos and Jews helped the Barbary corsairs: they were the scapegoat of their frustration about the cotinuous raids of these Algerian pirates. Spain also sought to build its national identity on religion, and in this sense Moriscos were a "problem".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:05

its the year 2006. if you are comparing muslim countries to that of europeans ones in teh 1600's, then you prove my point.

you guys should be ashamed.  my personal opinion is that islam is not compatible, its either one of the other, and i applaud people like Ataturk who made the right decision.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:25

How about this...who cares?

What is real democracy? Real democracy is decision making by a vote of the whole populace, which is impossible. What is a republic? elected representatives. However, in an elected legislature, which by definition is democratic, it does not mean religion must be kept separate,

Separation of church and state is an American idea. Even when Europe started to change religion still held official status (and in many countries it still does).

I dont care if religion is involved in Islamic governments. It is their concern and if the people want it (which is most important) then you have true free government. Just because it isnt in the image as the west would like it means nothing.

For example, freedom of speech in the Muslim world and in Europe doesnt work, but in America it does, that is just a difference in culture. However if that is how the people want it then it is a freedom in it self.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:34
Islam is no less compatible to democracy or secularism than Christianity.

I am personally non-theist/agnostic, but I think Islamists are not real Muslims.

Even the most religious people can be secular.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:37
Democracy is a paradox in itself, because there is always a possibility that the majority could want a non-democratic system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 23:03
Originally posted by barish

Democracy is a paradox in itself, because there is always a possibility that the majority could want a non-democratic system.


But this is very rare to say the least. Hitler (the typical case that is claimed to have been a democratically chosen tyrant) didn't have a majority and only using extraordinary powers (after a full decade of minority governments against the Parlament by other conservative parties) and banning the main opposition party (the communists) could rise to government by a majoritary vote in a mutilated parlament.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 23:23

what are you guys talking about?

democracy being a paradox? democracy not even being a democracy? tell that to the billions of people hoping one day to live in a truly free democratic state and rid themselves of their tyrant dictators.

what do you have to say to those people? what do you have to say to the freedom loving afghans, who prayed for the taleban to fall, what do you say to the iranians, who want the mullahs gone, but cant do anything about it, what do you say to the belarusians? waht do you say to the zimbweians?

i bet all those people are happy with the status quo right?

your comments are the very same reasons that dictators claim in order to stay in power.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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