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Topic ClosedAre Islam and democracy compatible really

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Islam and democracy compatible really
    Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:00
At least we are learning Constitutional  lawSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 06:31
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Oohoohoo...What is it that you smoke nowadays?Tongue
 
Communist Party took its place in the parliament in 60s with several representatives...And it is a legal party today among with many other hardcore leftist parties.But their balloting mass is just too small.
 
The reason it is not taken seriously today is their comical statements...Once in a program, president of TKP stated " We will close all the private sector once we come to the power"...LOL..All they do is to organize some youth in universities, coordinate demonstrations and protests and fill everywhere with papers...
 
 
 
 
 
It maded in the 60's?No kidding!LOLWhat was his power?Unimportant.Was it surveillanced by the USA and Turkish intelligence?Definently.And their balloting is just too small for reasons i've stated before.Just try next time to read all my posts.
And closing the private secteur is far better than having a bunch of Generals ruling the country,Kurds hunted down,people imprisoned in white cages for their beliefs,besieging illegally property which belongs to the Patriarchate,military aircraft  threating allies ,minority people kicked out of their homes........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 07:03
No general, except Kenan Evren, has ever ruled Turkey.

Actually Communist Party of Turkey was founded in 1920.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 07:11

Realistically, a person with power does not need to rule in an obvious way.Haven't you heard the term "parastate"?Apparently not.

Actually Communist Party of Turkey was founded in 1920.
 
A Party surveillenced and controlled by secret services,military,political powers for decades cannot operate freely.A Party that cannot operate freely is a political corpse.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 07:59
Spartakus
It maded in the 60's?No kidding!LOLWhat was his power?Unimportant.Was it surveillanced by the USA and Turkish intelligence?
 
What on Earth are you blabbering on about, they were powerfull enough to try and cause a coup and were inside the millitary.
 
So what's your problem with Intelligence? it shouldn't exist? oh I get it, only if its somthing like the KGB that would be fine wouldn't it LOL
 
Communism = The Police State, didn't you ever realise this.
 
Its a blessing to the world that Communism is done and dusted, get over it dude.
 
Oh..........
 
And closing the private secteur is far better than having a bunch of Generals ruling the country,Albanians/Gypsies/Turks/Jews hunted down,people imprisoned in white cages for their beliefs,besieging illegally property which belongs to the Muftu,military aircraft  threating allies ,minority people kicked out of their homes........
 
 
You have such warped views, I mean really their amazing, you think if a Communism party comes to power it will be great for all mankind and sweep Greece off its feet and the two countries will enjoy a romantic happy happy after.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 10-Jun-2006 at 08:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 08:07
Originally posted by Spartakus

 
 
It maded in the 60's?No kidding!LOLWhat was his power?Unimportant.Was it surveillanced by the USA and Turkish intelligence?Definently.And their balloting is just too small for reasons i've stated before.Just try next time to read all my posts.
And closing the private secteur is far better than having a bunch of Generals ruling the country,Kurds hunted down,people imprisoned in white cages for their beliefs,besieging illegally property which belongs to the Patriarchate,military aircraft  threating allies ,minority people kicked out of their homes........
 
Don't spill your biased information about Turkey all over the forum, my friend...
 
A bunch of generals ruling the country, such a thing never occurred except the interregnum times happened after 1960 and 1980 coups.And practically, it is true that military has influence over politics, but please don't exaggerate the level of it.
 
And shall a communist government HAVE TO take power in Turkey or what?I don't know why you had made Communist Party's small ballots as an obsession...People don't want radical left-wing in Turkey, instead they go vote for social democrat parties like DSP(Democratic Left Party) and CHP(Republican People's Party),which both had come to power for many times...So, that discards your discussion of Turkish governments being rightist all the time...
 
Kurds being hunted down, yes Kurdish terrorist faction named PKK is being hunted down...But maybe like Mr.Pangalos,some of the Greeks have a different point of view to that issue...
 
Military aircrafts, I bet Greece is the angel on that issue for your sideLOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:14
From all the points i brought,you stay on Communism!As i said,but none of you really pays attention,as usual,is that one of the reasons why Turkey is far away from being a proper democracy,is that it did not allowed leftist parties to operate freely.In a proper democracy,as i 've already said,Parties are free to operate and to form their electorate without surveillance and control.That is not the case with Turkey,and for this reason is not a proper democracy.Maybe now you can understand?So,don't focus on the nature Communism again.It only shows stupidity.
 
Don't spill your biased information about Turkey all over the forum, my friend...
 
I am not the one who has Europe under Turkish flag in my avatar my friend.......
 
yes Kurdish terrorist faction named PKK is being hunted down
 
Kurdish terrorist action?For decades Kurds did not even existed for the Turkish State......
 
Military aircrafts, I bet Greece is the angel on that issue for your sideLOL
 
Show according to you,a nation of 10.000.000 people can pose a threat for a nation of 60.000.000 people with more than 600.000 troops and 300 firghting aircrafts?Man,you must return to school!LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:17
Originally posted by Spartakus

For decades Kurds did not even existed for the Turkish State......


Turks still do not for the Greek state...



Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jun-2006 at 14:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:20

If i remember correctly,Turkey signed the Lausanne treaty too.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:29

Originally posted by Spartakus

I am not the one who has Europe under Turkish flag in my avatar my friend...

Do you know where that image is from?

Originally posted by Spartakus

Show according to you,a nation of 10.000.000 people can pose a threat for a nation of 60.000.000 people with more than 600.000 troops and 300 firghting aircrafts?Man,you must return to school

Are you joking? War is not about merely numbers.
    

Edited by barish - 10-Jun-2006 at 14:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:33
Correct but that was not the point...

It is somewhat arrogant to demand the recognition of minorities in another country, and the complete opposite in your own. It is like littering the streets, while at the same time shouting at the top of your voice "Keep the streets clean!".  Its a little bit inconsistent, isn't it?

I cannot help but conclude that your statements about the Kurds or any other minorities in Turkey do not stem from a genuine concern for their well being, but from a desire to score points against Turkey in favor of Greece. otherwise you would have supported the same for the minorities in Greece

I fully support all minority rights for Kurds and I am glad the Turkish state has recognized their right to refer to themselves as Kurds, and I hope it will go further in promoting their culture and language, and I strongly condemn any past and present assimilatory policy against peaceful citizens of Kurdish origin.  Do you do the same for minorities in Greece?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:35
Are you joking? War is not about merely numbers
 
You need to learn more about Modern Warfare and Warfare in General.Numbers are in fact very usefull.Turkey has numbers,thus having the ability to initiate an attack wherever and whenever it wants, while having the capability to fight for a very long period of time.Combine that with modern weapon systems and then you have a very dangerous military force.
 
Do you know where that image is from?
 
I know what it shows,and in the end that is what is important,because it simplyis a mirror of what the person  thinks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 14:56
Originally posted by Spartakus

From all the points i brought,you stay on Communism!As i said,but none of you really pays attention,as usual,is that one of the reasons why Turkey is far away from being a proper democracy,is that it did not allowed leftist parties to operate freely.In a proper democracy,as i 've already said,Parties are free to operate and to form their electorate without surveillance and control.That is not the case with Turkey,and for this reason is not a proper democracy.
 
As I said, there are some certain points(namely coups) in Turkish republic history that democracy ceased to exist, but it is not only the leftist parties which had been not allowed to operate, during the 60 coup, Menderes' Democrat Party, and during the 80 coup, many right parties were closed by military administration.
 
I can't deny that there had been a general antipathy, and in the 50s,some things happened like what McCarthy did in USA,against radical left parties and leftist people, but that was due to paranoia of political officials and the shadow of Soviet Union over Turkey,though I don't support it at all...
 
If you look at the situation now, you can see there is nothing against any party.
 
Originally posted by Spartakus

I am not the one who has Europe under Turkish flag in my avatar my friend.......
 
One of our other Greek members had brought that up that to use as a counter-argument for my theses...Maybe because he was lacking other arguments and he decided to use my avatar as a materialTongue
 
It is a picture taken from a Greek animation(http://www.e-grammes.gr/turkman.htm) and it is been put as my avatar just for fun, to tease Greek obsessions about Turkey,nothing elseLOL
 
Originally posted by Spartakus

yes Kurdish terrorist faction named PKK is being hunted down
 
Kurdish terrorist action?For decades Kurds did not even existed for the Turkish State......
 
I didn't understand the relevance but for your Kurd hunt theses,only PKK is put under such a thing,not innocent civilians
 
Originally posted by Spartakus

Military aircrafts, I bet Greece is the angel on that issue for your sideLOL
 
Show according to you,a nation of 10.000.000 people can pose a threat for a nation of 60.000.000 people with more than 600.000 troops and 300 firghting aircrafts?Man,you must return to school!LOL
 
Yes, it can pose a threat...In case of your discussion,Pakistan with 150 mil. people can't pose a threat to India with 800 mil. people,so I find it silly. And also, nobody can deny the fact that the Greek jets are also involving in air corridor violations sometimes, like the Turkish jets...It is two-sided power display.


Edited by Kapikulu - 10-Jun-2006 at 14:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:00
Correct but that was not the point...

It is somewhat arrogant to demand the recognition of minorities in another country, and the complete opposite in your own. It is like littering the streets, while at the same time shouting at the top of your voice "Keep the streets clean!".  Its a little bit inconsistent, isn't it?

I cannot help but conclude that your statements about the Kurds or any other minorities in Turkey do not stem from a genuine concern for their well being, but from a desire to score points against Turkey in favor of Greece. otherwise you would have supported the same for the minorities in Greece

I fully support all minority rights for Kurds and I am glad the Turkish state has recognized their right to refer to themselves as Kurds, and I hope it will go further in promoting their culture and language, and I strongly condemn any past and present assimilatory policy against peaceful citizens of Kurdish origin.  Do you do the same for minorities in Greece?

The point is that in Hellas until the 90's, the only minority existed was the Muslim minority of Thrace.And that is what it is ,a Muslim minority according to the Lausanne treaty and according to reality.This minority was not treated well untill the 70's and 80's,it's true.But ,do not  forget that until the 70's,Hellas was destroyed politically ,economically and socially:
1936-1940 Dictatorship of Metaxas
1940-1941 War against the Axis Forces
1941-1944 Harsh Axis Occupation
1944-1949 Civil War,thousands dead and exiled
1950-1967 Political instability ,the rightists ,winners of the civil war,hunt down leftists and exile them
1967-1974  Dictatorship of Hunta
 
The whole people suffered from poverty,political instability,ideoligical war.How can you expect that a minority would be treated in the best way,when the Hellen citizens themsleves had immense problems?And how do you expect to treat them well,when Turkey kicks the Hellenic minority out of Constantinople,invades in Cyprus,almost provocked war in the 1987?The specific minority is not an ordinary minority.It's a minority bounded by a treaty and in the borders with a hostile neighbour.Combine that with the whole economical,political,social situation of Hellas as described above,and then you will understand why.
 
Now,after the 90's ,many foreigners came to Hellas:from Asia,from the former Eastern Block, from Africa.But none of them could be considered a minority.Some of them were too few,some others like Albanians were just coming to Hellas in order to work,and left again back to their country.Another reason,is that foreigners started to organize only the last decade,like the Pakistanis.Another reason is that,there are already second generation immigrants,thus it's a matter or time that they will intergrade into the Hellenic society.It's not that simple.
 
And in the end,it's not arrogant to say what is the reality.We discuss about Turkish reality,not about Hellenic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:09
If you look at the situation now, you can see there is nothing against any party.
 
Now is relevant.If by now you mean the 90's then you are wrong.If you mean now,after 2003 for example,then yes things have been imrpoved,due the possible entry of Turkey in EU.But that's all,a small improvement.
 
I didn't understand the relevance
 
Oppresion against the Kurdish population.
 
Yes, it can pose a threat...In case of your discussion,Pakistan with 150 mil. people can't pose a threat to India with 800 mil. people,so I find it silly. And also, nobody can deny the fact that the Greek jets are also involving in air corridor violations sometimes, like the Turkish jets...It is two-sided power display.
 
We do not have nuclear weaponry,like Pakistan.We can only wage a defensive war,not an aggresive one.And the Hellenic jets involve in air fights ,only because Turkish fighters have violated the Hellenic air space.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:18
To be honest I was expecting nothing but another meager attempt of an apologetic denial, Spartakus ... why cant you be a man enough and acknowledge that the refusal to grant the minorities in Thrace and Macedonia the right to identify themselves as Turkish or Slavic is wrong? Why is so hard to see the obvious and swallow your Greek pride?

This is why I am so critical of Greece ... because most of you Greeks in this forum are utterly and absolutely failing to be self-crtical (maybe the only exception is xristar) and if it wasnt for our criticism you'd probably paint your state as the shining craddle of democracy under the oblivious and indifferent eyes of your Western European allies.






Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jun-2006 at 15:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:35

I just  told you why the Muslims of Thrace where not treated well,because of the history of Hellas and because of the special place in which this minority is in.Whether you want to believe or not that's another issue.Apparently you can ask the 300.000 dead Hellens of  WII,the 154.000 dead Hellens of the civil war,the thousands of Hellens exiled during the same periods,the exiled Hellens of the Hunta regime.

When you have a minority bounded by a treaty ,situated in the borders with a hostile neighbour like Turkey and has the same religion with it,then it's natural to treat it with a special manner.Now,if you do not undestand about politics ,then it is not my problem.And we discussed about what the minority's character is a bizzilion times.
 
There are no minorities in Macedonia.Only the Bulgars and the muslims ,who left after the Treaty of Neigy in 1919 and the Lausanne Treaty in 1923.If you are talking about FYROM,that's another historical issue which can only be discussed separately.Although,we have talked about it for a bizzilion times too.
 
I never painted Hellas as a shining craddle of democracy.But my State is far better than every other State in the Balkans.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:50
Originally posted by Spartakus

 
Do you know where that image is from?
 
I know what it shows,and in the end that is what is important,because it simplyis a mirror of what the person  thinks.
 
LOLI take that as a compliment, thanksLOL
 
Judge people with their avatars, go on...And prove the obsessions showed in that brilliant Greek animation rightBig smile...


Edited by Kapikulu - 10-Jun-2006 at 15:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:52
Originally posted by Spartakus

I just  told you why the Muslims of Thrace where not treated well,because of the history of Hellas and because of the special place in which this minority is in.Whether you want to believe or not that's another issue.Apparently you can ask the 300.000 dead Hellens of  WII,the 154.000 dead Hellens of the civil war,the thousands of Hellens exiled during the same periods,the exiled Hellens of the Hunta regime.

When you have a minority bounded by a treaty ,situated in the borders with a hostile neighbour like Turkey and has the same religion with it,then it's natural to treat it with a special manner.Now,if you do not undestand about politics ,then it is not my problem.And we discussed about what the minority's character is a bizzilion times.
 
There are no minorities in Macedonia.Only the Bulgars and the muslims ,who left after the Treaty of Neigy in 1919 and the Lausanne Treaty in 1923.If you are talking about FYROM,that's another historical issue which can only be discussed separately.Although,we have talked about it for a bizzilion times too.


We are not talking about history nor politics, we are talking about human and individual rights now at this present moment, not about people who have died decades ago but about people whose communal rights continue to be undermined even now as we speak.

I hereby state that I, bg_turk, fully, unconditionally and unreservedly accept the right of every Armenian, Rum, Kurd, Bosniak, Albanian within the boundaries of the Turkish Republic to refer to themselves as such and to preserve, practice and promote their culture, religion and language.

Do you accept the right of any Greek citizen to freely call themselves Turkish, Slavic Macedonian or Bulgarian, and to establish cultural organizations that carry the those names in order to promote their linguistic and culutral heritage? Yes or no? If yes, how do you comment on the recent ban on the Turkish Teachers Union in Xanthi?


I personally unequivocally condemn any recent or current harrasments of minorities in Turkey and to a lesser extent in Bulgaria.


I never painted Hellas as a shining craddle of democracy.But my State is far better than every other State in the Balkans.



these two sentences are an oximoron - the second is essentially the complete antidoe of the first.

In any case I am glad to be a Bulgarian citizen and I am confident that as such I enjoy far more rights than my fellow Turks that were  unfortunate enough to be born in Greece, and to whom you continue to refer by the contrived name of Muslim Greeks.  Greece is by far not better than Bulgaria with regard to minority rights.


Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jun-2006 at 16:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 15:56
Originally posted by Spartakus

If you look at the situation now, you can see there is nothing against any party.
 
Now is relevant.If by now you mean the 90's then you are wrong.If you mean now,after 2003 for example,then yes things have been imrpoved,due the possible entry of Turkey in EU.But that's all,a small improvement.
 
I didn't understand the relevance
 
Oppresion against the Kurdish population.
 
Yes, it can pose a threat...In case of your discussion,Pakistan with 150 mil. people can't pose a threat to India with 800 mil. people,so I find it silly. And also, nobody can deny the fact that the Greek jets are also involving in air corridor violations sometimes, like the Turkish jets...It is two-sided power display.
 
We do not have nuclear weaponry,like Pakistan.We can only wage a defensive war,not an aggresive one.And the Hellenic jets involve in air fights ,only because Turkish fighters have violated the Hellenic air space.
 
There wasn't in 90s, there was in 80s...If there are no limitations for any parties, how can that be a just "small" improvement?
 
In Istanbul or Ankara, Communist Party is probably the most active party with all those protests,demonstrations,slogans,papers.
 
One more time, those evil Turks, very bad boys,they do every bad while we are sitting down silently in our corner...Evil Smile
 
You were saying hunting down the Kurdish people, now you have changed it one more time,well go on with that, but I won't discuss this in this topic about Islam and democracy's compatibility, open a different thread if you'd like to go over.
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