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Worst ruler of your country?

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Tonifranz View Drop Down
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  Quote Tonifranz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Worst ruler of your country?
    Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:08
Originally posted by Tobodai

Originally posted by Tonifranz

Buchanan. James Buchanan. He just sat on his behind while the Southern states seceded and dumped the problem on Lincoln. This alone would make him worst.

Jackson was one of the best U.S. Presidents. At least he had guts to stand up to South Carolina when it attempted nullification. He was a strong president, and compared to other 19th century mediocrities, he was one of the best.

At least Carter and Bush didn't just make the U.S. weak like Buchanan.

As for Bush, you have to wait for a period of time to past to heap judgement on him. It's too early. Wait 20 years or so after his death to see if he really is the worst U. S. President (I don't think he is one of the worst, but I'm still reserving judgement).  Remember, in his time, Warren Harding in his time as president was considered one of the best Presidents, and Franklin Roosevelt in the 1930s and Lincoln at the height of the Civil War was considered by many as one of the worst.

 

 

 

no, judgement can be heaped on Bush because of the goof ups.  Never in US history before now have we pre emptively invaded a natio on flase pretences.  We already know it was qrong, that the reasons were lies, we already know we have more enemies now then we did before.  Hosni Mubarak said if we invade Iraq there will be a thousand Bin Ladens created, he was wrong though, its more like 1 million.  I believe as time goes on Bush will only continue to look worse, unles the theocracy gets power and makes him their patron saint that is.

 

ANd how possibly Janus, could he further your personal agenda? Unless of course you mean make the US government easier to overthrow?

Passions! Passions! How many history figures have been reviled and insulted and such during their time? And proven wrong when time passed?

How many historical figures have been admired and flattered during their time? And when time passed happened that those admiration was undeserved?

His term isn't even over!

You have made an elementary mistake by making a judgement too early. Historical judgements on contemporaries should be witheld.

Besides, doing what somebody didn't do before isn't necessarily bad. We have to wait until his term ends, and wait another few years because at this point, partisan passions ran too high.

We must wait for a few years to see the effects of Bush's foreign policy on the Middle East and the world. Preemptive strike may not necessarily bad for the United States interests as some people say. We'll see.

 

 

 

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  Quote Tonifranz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:08

Sorry for double posting.



Edited by Tonifranz
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:17
yes but if you make this argument you are effectively making the point that the more at a distance we are the more effectively we evaluate things, which is totally not true.  For every all encompassing thing we can make of history, thousands of things are lost in the mists of times.  The time of the evaluation therefore must depend soley on the circumstance and not on how many years have passed.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:20
Originally posted by Roughneck

I'll be nice and reserve judgement, although I definitely think he's going to be in the running.

 

I'll offically say Hoover.  When the stock market collapsed and put millions out of work, he did almost nothing.

 

But there was not precident.  Many presidents beofre had done nothing in times of economic crisis, in fact Hoover was probably the first to ever try to do anything period!  He normalized relations with the Latin American world as well as is a great humanitarian from the post WW1 era.  Hes stupidity is nothing compared to Jackson, or Buchanan, or Pierce or any of those other horrible 19th century trolls.

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  Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:36
Mulroney? Sure he wasn't that great, but dont complain about the debt if you dont know of the debt during Trudeau's leadership.
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  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 01:22
That's why I find Hoover's inaction so odd.  He was key to building Europe back up after both wars, was a great humanitarian, you'd think he would have done some thing like FDR.  I haven't read up on specifics of most of those forgotten Presidents, so I can't pass judgement on them.
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  Quote Tonifranz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 02:03

But for example, Tobodai, Caesar's conquest of Gaul's importance to the development of Western Civilization was only realized centuries after the death of Caesar himself!

Or Jackson's stand of nullification stand more in contrast to Buchanan's inactivity twenty years later.

Or Athenian democracy deemed more a force of good in the present times than in times of absolute monarchy.

Besides, Jackson is not a bad president. In fact Jackson was one of the greatest 19th century presidents!

 

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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 07:47
     for China the worst has gotta be Mao Tse-Tung and Chen Shuibian...
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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 08:27

Originally posted by Ptolemy

Mulroney? Sure he wasn't that great, but dont complain about the debt if you dont know of the debt during Trudeau's leadership.

Ccertianly Trudeau is responsible for the debt his cabinet invented deficit financing. IMO he was actually the worst prime minister we ever had. Mulroney is just hated because all of a sudden you see the extra tax you are paying. It really created a sore spot for those of us from Alberta. we never have had a sales tax and then all of a sudden boom.  

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 11:14
Adolf Hitler, don't think I have to state any specific things...
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 11:49

Benito Mussolini of course (and also King Victor Emmanuel III). His over-imperialistic and arrogant bravado caused the death of thousands of people in Ethiopia and Libya. Not to mention, it dragged Italy in the worst war in her history, and let's not forget, it caused the dissolution of the Italian Empire.


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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 13:28
Originally posted by Tonifranz

But for example, Tobodai, Caesar's conquest of Gaul's importance to the development of Western Civilization was only realized centuries after the death of Caesar himself!

Or Jackson's stand of nullification stand more in contrast to Buchanan's inactivity twenty years later.

Or Athenian democracy deemed more a force of good in the present times than in times of absolute monarchy.

Besides, Jackson is not a bad president. In fact Jackson was one of the greatest 19th century presidents!

 

I dont see why, sure he did reign in South Carolina, but he got rid of the bank of the US, was duped by a political conspiracy to raise the tariff, and of course is the most genocidal of any US president, trail of tears anyone?

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  Quote Tonifranz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 17:21

Guess I'll have to defend the seventh president of the United States!!

Anyway, here's the one I did for heavengames, and here's the link .

Originally posted by Tonifranz from Heavengames

He was one of the greatest presidents of the 19th century.

He founded the Modern Democratic Party.

He was the first President not from Virginia or Massachussetts.

The first President not from the East.

The first President of humble origins.

The first President who won a majority of the Popular vote and electoral vote in 1828.

He defeated the British at New Orleans in 1815, suffering less than 20 casualties.

He aquired Florida for the United States. Even though he killed Ambrister and Arthbutnot in an arbitrary way, his actions showed that Spanish Authority in Florida is an empty shell, and strenghtened J.Q. Adams hand against the Spanish diplomats. So, the good that he did for the United States outweight the bad that he did for some British traders in Florida. I won't justify it on moral grounds, but on ground of American self-interests.

He was the symbol of the new democracy in the United States, whereby the vote was spread from those with property qualifications, to that of almost all white males.

He represented the temper, the likes, and dislikes, of his countrymen in the early nineteenth century.

He vetoed more bills than all his predecessors combined.

He was the worst president the Indians ever had. Especially with regards with the Indian Removal Act.

He took a stand against nullification twenty eight years before the Civil War. This is when S. Carolina espoused the dangerous doctrine that any state can nullify any law passed by Congress that it deemed unconstitutional, thus fatally weakening the Central government. Had this action gone unchallenged, it would show the hollowness of the federal government.

He killed the Second Bank of the United States. Though it's financial effects was not all that good, the fact is, it was very unpopular with the people, and he just acted out the popular will.

Under his administration, the national debt was expunged.

He got most favored status with Great Britain with regards to trade with the West Indies, something that his six predecessors was unable to do. It is interesting to note that J. Q. Adams failed to do so when he demanded the trade as a right, but Jackson succeeded by requesting it as a privilege.

He got the French to pay the debt to the United States incurred during French seizure for American Ships seized during the Napoleonic Wars, though he courted a storm in his method of doing so.

In conclusion, Andrew Jackson is one of the greatest Presidents of the United States. He stands head and shoulders above other presidents such as Madison, Monroe, J.Q. Adams, Van Buren, W.H. Harrison, Tyler, Polk, Taylor, and other nineteenth century mediocrities. He invented the theory that the President, with the character of its election, represented the whole United States in its person, while Congress only represented states or districts. He remade the Presidency into an infinitely more powerful institution. He made the Presidency an organ for the expression of the common people.

He was the worst President the Indians ever had. But he was one of the greatest Presidents America ever had. And I believe, if you weigh in his accomplishments against his failings, his accomplishments would weigh more.

But of course, he was not a great man. He was a bastard, a dueler, a troublemaker, and such, but he was a great general, a great politician and a great president.

As for the tariffs, you write that it is actually a bad thing. Remember, early 19th century United States was not an industrial country, and the industrial country at that time was Britain.

It is common knowledge that American industry sprang during the turmoil of the Embargo, the Non-Importation Acts, and the War of 1812, when imports from Britain were cut off. After the war, British goods returned for a vengeance, and threatened to smother all those infant industries.

And so what do you do to protect those industries? You raise the tariff! Hence the 1816 tariff, which is 20-25% on the value of imports!

And there was the tariff of 1824, which is 35%. Plus the 1828 tariff (45% on manufactured goods, and just as heavy on raw materials), the so-called tariffs of abomination, which was made during J.Q. Adams' administration, and the 1832 tariffs (35%), which Jackson signed, which lowered the 1828 so called tarrifs of abomination, the tariff whom you say was manipulative. And he further signed a compromise tariff in 1833 (which lowered, over a period of ten years, the tariff to 20-25%).

Plus there was the 1842 tariff, the 1846 one, the 1862, and all of those in the late nineteenth century.

Still, all these tariffs protected American infant industry from foreign competition, and ensured that these infants will become giants in the period after the Civil War. IT's imports were negligible, since most of the raw materials needed by the industries were in the United States itself.

Tarrifs enabled the United States to become the richest most industrialized country in the world.

And tariffs is the source of revenue for the government during this time. Besides, the debts of the American revolution, both foreign and domestic, was paid for by tariff duties. And the final installment of foreign debt was paid for by Jackson, again using tariff duties.

Without tariffs, the government of the United States in the 19th century would be deprived of revenue.

Originally posted by Tobodai

I dont see why, sure he did reign in South Carolina, but he got rid of the bank of the US, was duped by a political conspiracy to raise the tariff, and of course is the most genocidal of any US president, trail of tears anyone?

As for the trail of tears, yeah, its deplorable and reprehensible, but to say that makes him the worst is just not fair.

To quote myself again from heavengames:

Originally posted by Tonifranz from heavengames

He is a good leader. Yes, I agree, his Indian policy is contemptible, but his other achievements more than compensates fot it.

Otherwise, we can't consider Diocletian a great Emperor because of his persecution of Christians even if he extended the life of the Roman Empire by 200 years, we can't consider Philip II of Spain a great king of Spain, or at least a good one, because he murdered Protestants, or consider Shi Huangdi a great emperor of China for creating the Chinese empire even though he deliberately killed scholars, or Peter the Great for killing many others.

Greatness isn't measured by how moral you are while you are in office. It's measured on how you leave the country as contrasted by how you found it. Greatness should be measured as the sum of his achievements, not on how good he is to some peoople. If you don't do anything bad, if you didn't kill any particular group of people, but let your country be invaded or destroyed, is he greater than someone who killed a lot of people but left the country more prosperous and more powerful? No he's not.

Andrew Jackson's achievements more than compensates his Indian Policy. He left the country more democratic, without debt, more unified, more respected, and more powerful. Yes, his Indian policy should not be ignored, but it should not overshadow his other achievements.

So Andrew Jackson is a great president of the United States.

Otherwise, let's all say that Diocletian is not a great Emperor and the worst Emperor!

and

Originally posted by Tonifranz

Genghis Khan is a great Mongol Khan.
Atilla is a great Hunnic Leader
Julius Caesar is a great Roman Leader
Napoleon is a great French Emperor
Louis XIV is a great French King

and

Andrew Jackson is a great U.S. President base on his other achievements.

All of the above committed some atrocity against some people. But that doesn't mean they aren't great.
To say that his Indian Policy prevents him from being great is to ignore the lessons of history.

Morality doesn't equate greatness, and making atrocities against some people isn't a disqualfier to greatness. Otherwise, most of the historical leaders we consider great would not fall on the great category.

Why should we hold a different standard for U.S. Presidents?

So there. Jackson can't be considered the worst U.S. president and must be ranked among the greats!!!!!!!!

 

 



Edited by Tonifranz
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 18:00

NOpe, you have failed to convince me.  His economic policies were failures, the tariff if you want to argue it as a good thing was not his doing but congresses, it was however, by his intervention that corrupt opportunists used him to increase it to  levels that are way to high.

I am a proponent of free trade and the British EMpire may have had a head start in the industrial revolution, but they continued to develop by pursuing lazziez faire policies and their industries thrived without a tariff!

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 18:03
I do however want to commend you on your knowledge and intelligent argumentation, even if I disagree with you.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 20:35
Just maybe it's too early to judge Bush's foreign policy, but to cut taxes while invading two countries has to be the height of madness.  In less than 4 years we've gone from having a budget surplus to a huge deficit.  I think we're going to be a very long time paying off this debt.
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 20:58

I'll go with Abe Lincoln, for the killing of hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen.

But seriously, I would say Andrew Jackson.  Mainly for hus authorization of one of the most tragic events in US History(the Indian Removal Act), and for his quick temper(going so far as to duel people on a few occassions).

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  Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 23:38

Originally posted by Dawn

Ccertianly Trudeau is responsible for the debt his cabinet invented deficit financing. IMO he was actually the worst prime minister we ever had. Mulroney is just hated because all of a sudden you see the extra tax you are paying. It really created a sore spot for those of us from Alberta. we never have had a sales tax and then all of a sudden boom

Ah, an Albertan. Well I'm from Saskatchewan, as I told you in another thread, so we just love taxes! Though really, I dont think Saskatchewan liked him that much. I myself only like Trudeau's non-economic policies.

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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 01:22
-

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 05:09
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

My country is Turkey, which is the successor state to the Ottoman Empire. Although we never had a scarcity of bad leaders, I'd say the worst ever were the Ittihat ve Terakki Cemiyeti (Comittee of Union and Progress-CUP) triumvirate (Jemal, Talat, Enver Pashas) that ruled the Ottoman Empire from 1908 to 1918.

In just 10 years, they oppressed the people, tried to Turkify the Arabs and other minorities, ethnically cleansed the Armenians, caused the Empire to join the World War on the German side after Germany was engaged in two-front war (which according to the German high command meant no chance of victory). They were also tyrannical governors and incompetitive military leaders, when they took the matters directly in their hands. Enver's disregard for logistics caused the non-combat loss of 90000 troops in a counter-offensive in the mountains of Eastern Turkey (they came from the desert, equipped for desert warfare and froze to death at -30 degrees celcius). In the end the 600-year-old Empire collapsed and partitioned between the Allies, and Istanbul and Anatolia were under occupation. The peoples of Turkey (mainly Turks and Kurds), already devastated by numerous wars, had to fight yet another war- and this time for independence- because of that.

Completely disagree with you pal!

Because your post indicates you have ''hear-say history''knowladge on Ittihat ve Terakki.

1-Ittihat ve Terakki actually started to rule in 1913.The period between 1908 revolution and 1913 is well-defined by historian Sina Aksin:as a checking power.

Ittihat ve Terakki didnt intent to rule the empire at first.Because leaders of Ittihat ve Terakki themselves confessed that they had had not enough state-men,they were seeing themselves not capasitied enough.But after the Balkan Wars,and rumours of Kamil Pasa giving Edirne to the Bulgarians,they tought there was no any chanceanymore.

2-i dont know if you really have read life stories of Cemal,Talat and Enver but i have read.Especially the memories of Cemal Pasa clarifies everything.The main philosophy of the Ottoman Turk intellectuals were to save the empire from a collapse in the 19.centuıry.Ittihat ve Terakki was born in these conditions in 1889 in Ottoman Selanik.

 

3-When it comes to the ideology of Ittihat ve Terakki,one think should never be forgetten...Ittihat ve Terakki was born to save the empire from collapse with the Identity Ottoman...If you look at Ittihat ve Terakki postcards,you see that they bring together Arabs,Armenians,Kurds,Greeks,Slavs and Turks together under the umbrella of the Ottoman.The allegations of pan-turkish fallacy towards the Ittihat ve Terakki is answered by Cemal Pasha:

''Greeks can open their own schools,found their own national foundation,as well as the Circassian...So are the Bulgarians,Armenians and Macedons..but why is being critisized when the Turks open their own school?''

4-Actually,Ittihat ve Terakki gave many goldens to the Arab seyhs.in order to gain them next to themselves.because Ittihat ve Terakki with Germany declared jihat in 1914.so how come you claim it?or believe it?

PLEASE beylerbeyi,Please..because an objective history rejects every assumption.

5-The Armenian Issue is being generalized..Therefore it cant being understood...but even in 1914,when the kurds of Bitlis rebelled toward the Armenian because of land dispute of a long time,local governor of Ittihat ve Terakki didnt hesitate to distribute weapons to the Armenians of Bitlis in order to defend themselves ..Ofcourse,this cant not tell the whole issue..But it once agains indicates that Ittihat ve Terakki never developed a racist policy...



Edited by TheDiplomat
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