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Buddhist fundamentalism/terrorism???

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Buddhist fundamentalism/terrorism???
    Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 21:56

For every major religions, there are always "affiliated" groups dedicated to terrorism, from Christian terrorist groups (e.g. Ku Klux Klan, The Order, Lord's Resistance Army, etc.), to Islamist terrorist groups (too many to name), to Jewish terrorist groups (e.g. Jewish Defence League, Egrof Magen, etc.).

Have you heard of any Buddhist terrorist group? Some would argue that Aum Shinrikyo, the group that was responsible for the sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995 was a Buddhist sect, but I find that association a little ambiguous.

Some point out that "not unlike other religions, Buddhism also has 'skeletons in its closet' which it carefully conceals in the Western world." I came across the following website and do not know what to make of its contents. It mentions things such as "Buddhocracy" and the "Unholy alliance between Hitler, Buddha, and Krisna". There are also many negative comments on the Dalai Lama and on Tibet. It also gives many examples of Buddhist violence in countries such as Sri Lanka, Burma, Bhutan, Laos, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Kashmir, and Korea.

http://www.trimondi.de/EN/links.htm

The following is an example of what the site is about:

'There are dark aspects in this philosophy of compassion, non-violence and tolerance. Zen-Buddhism for example influenced the most sophisticated warrior philosophy of the East: the extremely brutal and suicidal Samurai Ethics. In Tibetan Buddhism one can find believes in spirits and demons, in secret sexual practices, in war gods, in occultism. Lamas search to influence their retinue and the world with all sorts of magical rituals. In Sri Lanka Buddhist violence and Buddhist racism are the order of the day. In chemas-microsoft-comfficemarttags" />lace>Burmalace> and in Kashmir Buddhist armies are fighting. And yet the Dalai Lama has another face that peeks out from behind the mask of goodness, charity and kindness, which gives one pause to think more deeply about the shadow sides of this man of peace. Why is Buddhist fundamentalism so dangerous - because it shows a tendency to religious Fascism! Its not well known that the brain trust of the SS in Nazi Germany was extremely interested in Vedic- and Buddhist- teachings, in the Lamaist culture, and in Zen-Meditation with the goal to construct with elements of these eastern believes its own Nazi-Religion.Buddhism C if it will become congruent with western values like democracy, human rights, equality of gender etc. must be reinvented. The condition therefore is an open, critical and honest debate.'  

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 23:39
Buddhism is an extremely diverse religion, which unfortunately I don't know enought about
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 03:00
In Vietnam, there is a fundamentalist Buddhist group called Hoa Hao.  They have a tendency toward militancy.  That is to say, during the Vietnam War they had their own militia for self-defense.  However, they have no connection whatsoever with terrorism and they have a policy of tolerance and acceptance of other religions.  I have heard that you would not want to mess with them, though.

In my understanding, terrorism would actually be forbidden in Buddhism, since Buddha preached against killing and harming others.  Groups like Aum Shinrikyo are not Buddhist, they are more like seperate religions (cults, actually) unto themselves.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 04:56
There is a definatly a dark side to Tibetan Budhism, though nothing in comparison to the others. Alot of the times this is becuase it didnt fully replace the older religions and this helped it develope a stronger (in tibetan/mongolia) occult side.

Tibetan buddhism
Though i have always like all things tibetan i do think the west gets the romantic sanatised version. I was once a big believer in the dalia lama in my teenage years, but now i think a little differnt. Tibetan buddhism is made up of different sects and schools, yellow hat and the red hat are the two biggest. There was voilenec agianst each other.

Tibetan buddhism incorperated alot of the much older (native) shamanistc Bon religion and this could be viewed as 'polluting' of the buddhist ways. Allot of westerners have a romantic view of the Tibetans, but ive seen photo's with their shamans using drums using human skin and there is these skull cups made from a human cranium.

Ive decided to google as i type so i can show examples of tibetan religious icons and musical/ritual instruments


skull cup

Here is a rkang-gling trumpet made out of human femur


here is a Damaru drum with the description to the picture below.

"In Tibet, the human cranium is used in making the damaru, a drum with whirling balls, here two skulls are combined and, according to the holy texts, it is preferable for these to be taken respectively from a boy of sixteen and a girl of twelve. Monkey skins are stretched over the skulls, and one end is decorated with an eight-petalled lotus smeared with a girl's menstrual blood, and the other end with a mandala. Sixteen pierced holes allow the skin to be attached using human hair. "link



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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 13:08

Originally posted by Leonidas

There is a definatly a dark side to Tibetan Budhism, though nothing in comparison to the others. Alot of the times this is becuase it didnt fully replace the older religions and this helped it develope a stronger (in tibetan/mongolia) occult side.

Tibetan buddhism
Though i have always like all things tibetan i do think the west gets the romantic sanatised version. I was once a big believer in the dalia lama in my teenage years, but now i think a little differnt. Tibetan buddhism is made up of different sects and schools, yellow hat and the red hat are the two biggest. There was voilenec agianst each other.

Tibetan buddhism incorperated alot of the much older (native) shamanistc Bon religion and this could be viewed as 'polluting' of the buddhist ways. Allot of westerners have a romantic view of the Tibetans, but ive seen photo's with their shamans using drums using human skin and there is these skull cups made from a human cranium.

Very interesting.

This "dark" side of Tibetan Buddhism has actually been exploited by Communist China as one of their rationalizations for "liberating" Tibet from the grip of "barbaric medieval practices".

Could you care to share with us how you think differently about the Dalai Lama?

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 20:45
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmation


In my understanding, terrorism would actually be forbidden in Buddhism, since Buddha preached against killing and harming others.  Groups like Aum Shinrikyo are not Buddhist, they are more like seperate religions (cults, actually) unto themselves.

Terrorism is fobiddan in Islam but that doesn't stop Al-Qaeda.
Terrorism is fobiddan in Christianity but that doesn't stop the IRA.
Terrorism is fobiddan in Judeaism but that doesn't stop Israel.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 22:48
Terrorism is not forbidden in my religion but I still have to know of a Pantheist terrorist. 

Maybe the problem is to put too much emphasis in useless moral prohibitions, while not emphasizing enough the cultivation of reflexive wisdom.

Note: the IRA is not Catholic: it is Marxist.

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  Quote King Kang of Lemuria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 00:53

I do think Tibetan Buddhism has been played out by both sides.  I can see how atheistic Chinese Communist Party would have generated negative propagenda against it to suppress any empathy or uprising for independence. 

But I also see how Hollywood/University liberal intellects have proped them against Chinese human rights record.Isn't it funny how the West didn't give a rat's behind about them until China has become more competitive?

That is not to, of course, take anything away from Dalai Lama as a spiritual person and leader.  There was a line from 'Kundun', that caught me.  I don't know Dalai Lama actually said this or not, he probably was quoting a Buddhist scripture;  So he fled Tibet as an young man chased by Chinese Communist soldiers.  He goes over Himalayas(the biggest physical obstacal on Earth) on a donkey's back, reaches to narrow mountain path China/India(Nepal?) border exhausted.  An Indian guard who might have heard about his possible exile walks up to him and asks him, "Are you Buddha?  Dalai Lama barely lifts up his head and replies faintly,

"I am like the Moon on a surface of water, If you see me and I try to be good, you see Yourself."

The history is his story, not my story. -Sun Ra of the Arkestra
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 03:07
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmation


In my understanding, terrorism would actually be forbidden in Buddhism, since Buddha preached against killing and harming others.  Groups like Aum Shinrikyo are not Buddhist, they are more like seperate religions (cults, actually) unto themselves.

Terrorism is fobiddan in Islam but that doesn't stop Al-Qaeda.
Terrorism is fobiddan in Christianity but that doesn't stop the IRA.
Terrorism is fobiddan in Judeaism but that doesn't stop Israel.


The point is there have never been any Buddhist terrorist groups.
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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 04:05

wow, hes quite the sharp shooter. In 1985 he shot a hornet. I am not sure but I believe you have to be a pretty damn good shot to be able to hit one.

In any event, I want to dispute some of this article http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-2-09.htm#DL14

It mentions his fascination for weapons and machines of war...all I can say is big deal. I mean comeon...whats wrong with observing how nice military informs looks? Whats wrong with fascinations of artillery or other things. All of us have fascinations in that area and while the Dali Lama is supposed to be a reincarnation we have to remember that he is human with no memory of his former lives (If you believe that sort of thing, personally I dont) and thus subject to the natural elements just as normal people are.

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  Quote King Kang of Lemuria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 04:11

Yo,Scytho, it all depends how you define 'terrorist groups'.  I'm pretty sure many Buddhists picked up arms to fight what they mghit define as evil or foreign regimes.  I don't think Shaolin Temple monks went through that kind of training just to lose some weight. 

I know for sure that many Korean monks fought against Chinese or Japanese invasion/occupation.  Were they terroists?  Well they weren't part of Korean regular army.  They were more likely to fought next to bunch of farmers with pitch and forks just to defend their family and land.  I don't think these stories are rare in places like Vietnam or Thailand.  To the invading/occupying force maybe they were 'terrorists' not unlike the Middle East today. 

Btw the only nation ever have been convicted of 'International Terrorism' in the World Court sanctioned by U.N. is U.S.A. for atrocities we have commited in Nicaragua in the 80's.  U.S. was ordered to pay billions to Nicaragua but they ignored the ruling and vetoed it in Security Council.  Of course the 'Liberal Media' ignores it, too. Don't believe it ?  Look it up, plz.  How is that for defining 'Terrorist Groups'?  



Edited by King Kang of Lemuria
The history is his story, not my story. -Sun Ra of the Arkestra
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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 04:24

Yeah the US was the only nation to commit international terrorism...Never mind what the North Koreans have been doing to Japan and South Korea since the end of the Korean war...Or how about what France did in Algeria...you know...mowing down groups of refugees ect ect...What BS. The Europeans have a real sexual fascination about convicting America in their courts...I think it is the only way for them to get off.

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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 05:40
Ha, Ha, I like that last post, Loknar!

Yo, Kang--
I never said Buddhists have never fought.  Fighting is avoided in Buddhism, but the possibility is left open as a last resort.  That's not quite the same as trying to convert the world to a certain religion through force of arms.  There has never been a war fought in the name of Buddhism.  In other words, there is no such thing as a "holy war" "crusade" or  "jihad" in Buddhism.  I guess it would seem too absurd to try to force others to attain enlightenment!


Edited by Scytho-Sarmatian
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  Quote jfmff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 06:22
Quote:

"I guess it would seem too absurd to try to force others to attain enlightenment!"



I just read one of the articles about the Dalai Lama and it was a complete crap. So partial that I doubt any of it is true. There are a lot of people who want to discredit the Dalai Lama namely PRC and the NKT/Dorje Sungden suporters.

Anyway, that belongs to Tibetan Buddhism, which I don't folow. I folow the Theravada Buddhism, the Buddhism of the South. We folow the Pali Canon as our scriptures. If someone claims to be a buddhist and goes around kiling people they just can't be considered buddhists. There is no room for interpretation in the scriptures about this. Just like a monotheist who doesn't believe in God just can't be considered  a monotheist. The five lay vows, the most basic moral buddhist discipline, involves not kiling, not even animals. The problem with religions is always the same: the ones who folow them are human. There are people who folow correctly the religious teachings but there are those who don't. When we are analysing a religion we should evaluate their teachings and not what their folowers do.


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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 07:41

Originally posted by Maju

Terrorism is not forbidden in my religion but I still have to know of a Pantheist terrorist. 

Maybe the problem is to put too much emphasis in useless moral prohibitions, while not emphasizing enough the cultivation of reflexive wisdom.

Note: the IRA is not Catholic: it is Marxist.

There is/was more than one IRA - the original, the Provisional, the Real and maybe some others. The genesis of the movement was religious/tribal. But I agree some of the latter-day versions were Marxist.

My first mother-in-law was an IRA supporter during WWI, but she was as anti-Marxist and devotedly Roman Catholic as they come.

(And in fact one of the major supporters in the seventies was Ghadaffi, who is Muslim - or at least claims to be.)

 

 

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 22:14
Flyingzone wrote:
"This "dark" side of Tibetan Buddhism has actually been exploited by Communist China as one of their rationalizations for "liberating" Tibet from the grip of "barbaric medieval practices"."

They can rationalize all they want, tibetan culture or any culture should not be value judged or forcibly changed. I didnt post those things to denegrate Tibetans, i dont really care what they use to make drums.The west definatly gets the sanatised warm and fuzzy version and yes the chinese would focus on the dark gritty side. Either way it has all sides covered and they should all be respected and left alone.

"Could you care to share with us how you think differently about the Dalai Lama?"

When i was in my early teens,  i thought he was for the tibetans best interests, which in my mind always ment eventual independance. I respected non voilence as the moral high ground and as one strategy.

When you are ment to be the leader of a nation, you must also protect it and he is failing this. So now i think he is being irresponsible and using buddhism as an exuse to not  facing the bigger but more noble hardship of actively defending what is rightfully yours.

He went down the autonomy path instead, and it seems to me they are all more interested in making millions from paper back books and spreading (read; selling) their version of spirituality, rather than kicking the PLA out. The PRC is slowely killing the tibetan way of life and this seems to be accepted by the tibetan leadership. There will be no tibetan culture in tibet if it isnt vigoursly defended.


Edited by Leonidas
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 22:42

Originally posted by Leonidas

Flyingzone wrote:
"This "dark" side of Tibetan Buddhism has actually been exploited by Communist China as one of their rationalizations for "liberating" Tibet from the grip of "barbaric medieval practices"."

They can rationalize all they want, tibetan culture or any culture should not be value judged or forcibly changed. I didnt post those things to denegrate Tibetans, i dont really care what they use to make drums.The west definatly gets the sanatised warm and fuzzy version and yes the chinese would focus on the dark gritty side. Either way it has all sides covered and they should all be respected and left alone.

My opinion on this issue is actually very similar to yours. I despise the Hollywoodized "sanitized" and "fuzzy" version of Tibet as much as the PRC's version (i.e. they so-called "liberated" Tibet from feudalism and superstition).

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 22:53

Originally posted by Leonidas



When i was in my early teens,  i thought he was for the tibetans best interests, which in my mind always ment eventual independance. I respected non voilence as the moral high ground and as one strategy.

When you are ment to be the leader of a nation, you must also protect it and he is failing this. So now i think he is being irresponsible and using buddhism as an exuse to not  facing the bigger but more noble hardship of actively defending what is rightfully yours.

I think none of us can really say for sure what the motivation behind another person's action is. On one hand, one can argue, like you, that the Dalai Lama's "inaction" is an act of poor leadership and even cowardise. On the other hand, one can equally argue that he's only sticking to his principle of "non-violent resistance" and trying to avoid bloodshed at all cost (especially the blood of his fellow Tibetans) by making compromises and accommodations.

I think whether you agree with his decision or not, his actions are at least consistent with his beliefs, unlike many other religious leaders who, while preaching love and peace, would not hesitate to incite violence.

I would never go overboard and see the Dalai Lama as a "holy man" because in my opinion, no man is holier than another. But I like this guy and have a lot of respect for him.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 23:36

Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

In Vietnam, there is a fundamentalist Buddhist group called Hoa Hao.  They have a tendency toward militancy.  That is to say, during the Vietnam War they had their own militia for self-defense.  However, they have no connection whatsoever with terrorism and they have a policy of tolerance and acceptance of other religions.  I have heard that you would not want to mess with them, though.

I am MOST impressed by how much (strange information) my fellow forumers know ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_Hao

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 03:20
flyingzone wrote:
"I think none of us can really say for sure what the motivation behind another person's action is."
and
"But I like this guy and have a lot of respect for him."
i wouldnt second guess his personal motivation though im not convince all of those other monks are the real deal. I still respect him, but only as a religoius leader.  i completly disagree with his politics.

"On one hand, one can argue, like you, that the Dalai Lama's "inaction" is an act of poor leadership and even cowardise"
Im not calling him a coward, he is in the end, a buddhist monk. I am saying he is iresposible as the ultimate leader of the tibetans.

"On the other hand, one can equally argue that he's only sticking to his principle of "non-violent resistance" and trying to avoid bloodshed at all cost (especially the blood of his fellow Tibetans) by making compromises and accommodations."
Buddhism is a non voilent religion but the level of non voilence is still open to interpretation, defense in most buddhist society is still a valid exception. I vaguely remember reading about a group (maybe they're hindu) in the himalyas that hardly walk and filter their water so not to kill things they cant even see. From that extreme to monks changing the defensive martial arts of china into assasin type skills in japan.

As far as i am concerned there is no resistance. Nor is he talking to, or compromising with a reasonable foe

"I think whether you agree with his decision or not, his actions are at least consistent with his beliefs, unlike many other religious leaders who, while preaching love and peace, would not hesitate to incite violence."
maybe not completely consistent with his prevoius incarnations then. But it is true that he is better than other present leaders.

If he cannot be a effective political 'earthly' leader becuase he sticks with the spiritual side of things, then that role should be for someone else. He can fullfill his role being the highest spiritual leader, but this 'government' in exile should then take on the political leadership and be concerned about liberating and ruling its people.

This being consistant with my belief of a seperation of religion and state.


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