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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Islam and Christianity
    Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 11:54
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by azimuth

only a branch of Arabs came from Abraham.

So who was living in the Arab peninsula when Abraham was alive (assuming he was)?


No idea. When is it supposed that Abraham lived? He is supposed to a Sumerian from Ur... but his name sounds to me to Indian Brahma and brahman...

Anyhow, there's a so-called "Cohen gene" which is found in mos Jews of the Cohen (rabbi) caste, who are supposed to come from Aaron, the brother of Moses (Moses would have that same sublineage of the haplogroup J)

This person may already be historical, as genetics confirm it somehow. Other non-Jewish "Cohen" are the Lemba of Southern Africa (who have always claimed Jewish ancestry), some Kurds and some Italians.

Levites (another priestly caste) also have not one but two main ancestors: one may well be Levi, son of Jacob, the other is probably a Khazar lineage.

Yet, the majority of plain Jews don't have any of those lineages and are basically impossible to pick apart from Palestinians genetically, specially Sephardic Jews, who seem more pure (Askhenazim are more mixed with Khazars and other Europeans)

If you accept the Genesis account, then one of Abraham's descendants was Israel, whose children became the Jews. But Genesis accepts that there were stacks of other peoples around at the time. Abraham himself was Chaldean (according to the Book), and not - obviously - one of the 'children of Israel'.

This might explain the Kurd connection, actually.

Actually the Abraham myth is not incompatible with a group of Chaldeans having migrated to Canaan and settled there. But they were by no means the only inhabitants.

That's for sure.

Still it is surprising that the lineages of those cult founders are still detectable, not among all Jews (obviously) but among some privileged castes.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 13:14
Religious are among the greatest tool to divide people on.......  baseless assumptions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 12:37
I am surprised that the responses seem to be unaware of the latest DNA results relating to Mitochondria and Y Chromosome studies. The fact is Science through DNA has supported GENESIS 3:20, that HUMANITY is decended from ONE COUPLE(Adam and Eve)! Just as the BIBLE has always said. This shows that true science always agrees with the Bible which is believed to be written by GOD. Docyabut's statement indicates ignorance of facts. How can such a statement be made without any support? It is easy to say as Pikeshot1600 said, that Adam and Eve are mythic ancestors in spite of the scientific evidence, however such a statement is based on blind faith rather then on evidence. It is better to be aware and agree with current facts then to have beliefs that contradict the evidence. Here is a quote from a website regarding Mitochondria Eve (www.gnxp.com).
June 29, 2003

Mitochondrial Eve

Of all the women who have ever lived, there was one woman who was special.  She was the common maternal ancestor of all women currently alive.  She was "Mitochondrial Eve".

Consider the set of all women who have ever lived.  Each had exactly one mother.  Now shrink the set of all women to contain only mothers.  Each of them had exactly one mother.  Shrink the set again to contain only mothers of mothers.  Again, each of these women had exactly one mother.  Again, shrink the set to contain only mothers of mothers of mothers.  Continue doing this until you have a set with exactly one woman.  She is the maternal ancestor of all living women; she is Mitochondrial Eve.      & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;  Notice the date of the article! Here is a quote regarding the Y chromosome(www.chrom.com).

9:22 PM 11/22/1995

Men can trace male chromosome to one male 188,000 years ago, study says

NEW YORK (AP) -- Every man on Earth today can trace his Y chromosome to one male who lived about 190,000 years ago, before anatomically modern humans had evolved, a study suggests.

There were many males around at the time, but only this one left a Y chromosome legacy that persists today, said researcher Michael Hammer.

The Y chromosome is one of the 24 kinds of microscopic threads that hold genes. Unlike the other chromosomes, it is passed only from father to son.

The new study also supports the idea that modern humans arose in one place, rather than evolving on more than one continent.

Hammer, an assistant research scientist at the University of Arizona in Tucson, published the work in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

He compared the detailed makeup of a tiny piece of the Y chromosome as sampled from eight Africans of various backgrounds, two Australians, three Japanese and two Europeans. The idea was to look for how varied that piece was among the different ethnic groups, and then calculate how long it would take for evolution to produce the diversity he found.

The results suggest that all men alive today could trace their Y chromosomes back for about 188,000 years to the same person. "We would all have a Y chromosome that existed in the same guy," Hammer said.         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;         & nbsp;      Thus science as we can see shows the Bible is a document that is factual and reliable. Too bad people make groundless statements based on personal prejudices and pre-conceived ideas that we wish to believe in spite of evidence.        &nb sp;

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 15:35
Cuauhtemoc: Adam and Eve never met...

The chronology for each lineage is diferent: the mutation that we call "Eve" and that is behind all our female lineages is a lot older than the mutation we call "Adam".

This has some logic because statistically men are more likely to be more strongly selected than women, therefore the oldest common forefather (aka Adam) should be (and in fact is) a lot younger than the oldest common foremother.

Also your data is a little obsolete: "Adam" lived about 90-60,000 years ago, while "Eve" lived about 150,000 years ago. See Y-chromosomal Adam and Mithocondrial Eve.


Y-chromosomal Adam is not the same individual at all points in human history. The most recent common patrilineal ancestor of humans alive today is different from the one for humans alive a thousand years in the future: as male lines die out, a more recent individual, the Y-mrca of a subtree of the preceding Y-Adam, becomes the new Y-Adam.


Also, take in account that our purely paternal (Y-chromosome) and purely maternal (MtDNA) lineages that we can trace genetically, are not the only ancestors we have. While each of us has only one single uninterrupted Y-chromosome male-male... lineage, we have zillions of diferent forefathers, most of them from diferent genealogical lines probably. Yet their inheritace is not visible via that marker (but is equally present in our overall genetic makeup).

See also Most recent common ancestor


Edited by Maju

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 17:23
And it is for this reason we don't define "Adam" and "Eve" as "the first".  They are simply "the common ancestors" of all humanity.  "mtEve" was just one member of a clan which contained other women.  As time went by, the genetic inheritance of the other women of her clan died out, either by eventually having all male heirs (which would discontinue mitochondrial inheritance), sickness, famine, other natural disasters, or interclan warfare. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 17:42

No idea. When is it supposed that Abraham lived? He is supposed to a Sumerian from Ur... but his name sounds to me to Indian Brahma and brahman...

It didn't matter which period in Sumero-Babylonian history he lived.  From some of the earliest records, we know that many peoples of different backgrounds inhabited the land.  According to one Sumerian poem, Sumer is described as "many-tongued", hence Abraham (Abram) could still be a Semite (his name is perfectly Semitic).  A study of names indicated that in northern Sumer the majority of names were Semitic with a Sumerian minority, but in southern Sumer the majoity of names were Sumerian with a Semitic minority.  They also identified other names as being "Subarian".   Abram as a Semite would not be out of place in southern Sumer where Ur was located.

Abraham himself was Chaldean (according to the Book), and not - obviously - one of the 'children of Israel'.

Ummm, no.  Abraham was a "wandering Aramaean" (according to the Book), not because he was Aramaean but because after his family left Ur they settled in Harran.  The region of Harran was known anachronistically as either Padan Aram or Aram Naharaim, hence his relatives and himself became Aramaeans.  When Abraham migrated to Canaan, he and his descendants adopted the Canaanite language.  I speak of the region of Harran as being anachronistically "Aram" because the Aramaeans did not even colonize the region until about the 11th century BC.  In the time of Abraham, the nomads of the region were known as Amorites, of which we know several tribal names, including of all peoples the habiru which some equate with Hebrews.  By the time the earliest part of the Bible was written, the Aramaeans were already in the land, hence the writer or writers only knew that part of Mesopotamia as "Aram". 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 02:20
Maju, I am obviously aware of the data and that is why I presented it, as the discussion had been solely based on personal opinion with blind prejudice; and or ignoring or at least believing a dogma without support. As I am sure you were aware of as you must have read the other earlier posts. It is rediculous to suggest that Adam and Eve never met, for even as you responded in ur answer to me with a clarification of what would appear as utter nonsense! As you stated with possible trepidation or at least a recognition that I would mention this, that is regarding different chronologies of the Y chromosome and MtDNA and I quote you, "this has SOME logic because statisticly men... and more lightly." I am aware how the data under question is interpreted, however it would be just as legitimate to conclude and more logical that original Adam and Eve did meet! Conclusions as you know many times, whether in the scientific or other areas are interpreted with prejudices or pre-conceived ideas. The fact is we have an ancient document believed to be written by GOD to be correct! Who would have believed humanity came from one women or man before this discovery? Rhetorical question I know, but the answer is NO ONE! I am sure you are aware that these discoveries startled the scientific world! They agreed with the Bible! If a person had a document thousands of years old, would they not point this out reasonably? As you know previous to this, the most popular theory was humanity evolved from different groups and different areas of the world. You may comfort yourself with other interpretations of the data, but the fact is its supports a document that many wish to disregard and if we throw in logic, Adam and Eve met! SHARUKIN, the data can be legitimately interpreted as i have done. You may comfort yourself by saying they refer to common ancestor, however it is interesting since there was a disregarded theory in an ANCIENT book known as the BIBLE that said all humans were decended from one pair and thus they named them Y chromosome "Adam" and Mitochrondia "Eve"! What could they do with this competing theory but give it recognition? As you must know sharukin the theory advanced before this discovery was that humans evolved from different groups and different parts of the world. Who would agree with that?www.bible.ca                                                                                                     
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 03:39
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by azimuth

only a branch of Arabs came from Abraham.
So who was living in the Arab peninsula when Abraham was alive (assuming he was)?

Northen penisular arab tribes such as the Qureish are decendent from Ibrahim(pbuh). Obviously other arab tribes were living in the Arabian peninsular.
Originally posted by Maju

This might explain the Kurd connection, actually.

Kurds were around in Noahs(pbuh) time, and Noah was before(?) Abraham

Anyway, this is supposed to be about Islam and Christianity. No randoms. I like talking to christians, they have a moral base I can relate too.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 13:37
I'll try to be brief, as I'll be writing about something often discussed and debated. But here's my humble approach to the matter:
 
Christianity and Islam are two closely related faiths (together with Judaism). Both monotheistic, both sharing the same prophets (but Muhammad and Saleh as far as I know) and the same God, sharing obvious and similar values about family, social justice, etc.
 
Though they're both Abrahamic faiths, I think the approach and the mindset of the christian is signifcantly different from that of the muslim. In Christianity, Jesus isn't just an extraordinary man, a life example of humbleness, love, moral teachings and forgiveness, He is also the redeemer of all mankind, the Son (and lamb) of God who died for our sins and the person of God incarnate. This central notion of Christianity, which binds all christian theology, teachings, interpretation of New and Old Testaments and truly central to a christian's life is totally rejected by Islam, who regards Jesus simply as a prophet of God, a mortal man and not God or son of God. Furthermore, Christ's crucifixion is rejected in the Qur'an, where it's stated (or according to muslim belief, where God states) that Allah (God) created an illusion so that all Jesus' enemies thought that they were crucifying Him but, in fact, they were crucifying someone else (not specified but suggested to be Judas Iscariotes). Consequently, in Islam, Jesus rose up to Heaven alive and will remain there until the end of times.
 
Both religions believe in the second coming of Christ, but where as christians believe Jesus God will come to judge the living and the dead, muslims believe that Jesus man will fight alongside with the Mahdi (the Guided One) against the Anti-Christ, or in islamic terminology, the Dajjal (the Deceiver) to establish a perfect islamic society.
 
Addingly, Muhammad plays no role in Christianity, opposed to his central role in Islam where he is believed to be the Last Prophet sent to mankind by God (The Seal of the Prophets). Muslims do not worship Muhammad, for Islam is strictly and utterly monotheistic. The only one worthy of worship is Allah (the God). Any visual depiction of God, Muhammad or the Prophets is clearly forbiden (as we've recently seen with the Muhammad's cartoons issue). Nevertheless, Muhammad's life (known through a collection of stories and sayings reported to him, known as the Hadiths) is considered the perfect example to follow, for he was the perfect man.
 
Relating to the daily life, Islam may be regarded as more ritualistic than Christianity. The daily prayers are to be kept with few exceptions allowed. Some of the prohibitions of Moses Law, disregarded by the bulk of Christian doctrine, are regained in Islam, such as dietary laws, corporal punishments for adultery and robbery, polygyny (one man having multiple wives) is allowed and a concept of righteous, needed and expected struggle to defend the faith, be it against outside enemies or inside desires, commonly known as Jihad.
 
On the overall, the christian tries to emulate his or her life according to the example and the teachings of Jesus. The new and main commandment to all of the faithful is to Love one another, as I have loved you, so Love is the way through which the christian faith should always be expressed. The concept of Trinity, the triune God, is deemed as polytheistic by islamic standards.
 
The muslim is expected to shape his or her life and behaviour according to the Qur'an (literal word of God) and Hadith (teachings and life of Muhammad). The islamic religion (Din) should always have the central role in the muslim's and Umma's (community's) living. Islam is considered to be God's religion perfected to man, and is expected to be all-encompassing, such as God. Therefore, Islam covers subjects that some christian might find awkward, such as how to eat, what to wear, how to divide inheritance, etc.
 
Although both are central characters of the two faiths, Jesus and Muhammad are significantly different. Jesus preached for redemption, forgiveness, and love for one another (including your enemies), He sought to alert to the Kingdom of Heaven as a reality that one could grasp here and not just after death. Furthermore, He was a pacifist, preached non-violence and died as a martyr and redeemer. He claimed, and christian hold, that He was the Messiah and the God incarnate.
 
Similarly, Muhammad started preaching Islam in an hostile environment of a pagan and polytheistic Mecca. He and his few followers were persecuted for their beliefs and were forced to escape to Medina (the Hegira or Hijra - begining of the Islamic calendar) where the first muslim community was established under the rule of Muhammad. But, contrary to Christ, he leaded muslim armies into battle and raided Meccan caravans for booty. Through war and diplomacy, by the time of his death all of the Arabia peninsula was already under the flag of Islam.
 
Islam claims to be the last revealed religion of God, perfected to man and delivered through His words, in the Qur'an, and through Muhammad's life and teachings, in the Hadiths. Islam reckons the Old and New Testaments as God's scripture, but holds they are no longer valid for the Jews and he Christians corrupted them. So, the only uncorrupted scripture is the Qur'an. 
 
Though there are significant theological differences, Christianity and Islam share a common ground. Coexistence has existed for centuries, and mutual understanding should be encouraged on both parts for the sake of Mankind.
 
Personally, as a Christian, I think Islam is a form of syncretism of Christianity and Judaism, developed by Muhammad. Although I don't believe the Qur'an is the word of God, therefore denying all Islamic faith, I see in my muslim brothers and sisters common ground for coexistence, cooperation, truthful understanding and peace.  
 


Edited by Theophos
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 16:24
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Ummm, no.  Abraham was a "wandering Aramaean" (according to the Book),

Which book are we talking about?

AV, Genesis 11: 31

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

(At that time Abram had not yet adopted the name Abraham.)

not because he was Aramaean but because after his family left Ur they settled in Harran.  The region of Harran was known anachronistically as either Padan Aram or Aram Naharaim, hence his relatives and himself became Aramaeans. 

You mean when I came to live in Luxembourg I stopped being British and became a Luxembourger?

Viewing Abraham at least as a character in a book, the earliest mention of him has him coming from where the Chaldees lived. Now he could have been an alien invader from Alpha Centauri, but the minimal assumption has to be that he was supposed at least to be Chaldean.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 22:15

therophos qoute - Furthermore, Christ's crucifixion is rejected in the Qur'an, where it's stated (or according to muslim belief, where God states) that Allah (God) created an illusion so that all Jesus' enemies thought that they were crucifying Him but, in fact, they were crucifying someone else (not specified but suggested to be Judas Iscariotes). Consequently, in Islam, Jesus rose up to Heaven alive and will remain there until the end of times.

 

Please explain as to why Islam  didn`t think it was Jesus, that was crucified, but yet was  rose to heaven alive?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 23:16

In the old time religon people used to think there was no people after the great flood of Noah , so I can see where they connected the desendants of Ham( Canaanites) to the desendants of Shem  ,Abraham, and that every person on earth was of  the line of  Abraham. however we know today there was no world wide flood , and the flood was only a local flood, and there were many many peoples.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 23:51
Both religions believe in the second coming of Christ, but where as christians believe Jesus God will come to judge the living and the dead, muslims believe that Jesus man will fight alongside with the Mahdi (the Guided One) against the Anti-Christ, or in islamic terminology, the Dajjal (the Deceiver) to establish a perfect islamic society.
 
Now I liked that because it simply says that we are all the children of god  so what is the problem today ,as to why there has to be certain religous states, when all people should lived together under a one God.? The USA
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 23:58
Originally posted by therophos

Both religions believe in the second coming of Christ, but where as christians believe Jesus God will come to judge the living and the dead, muslims believe that Jesus man will fight alongside with the Mahdi (the Guided One) against the Anti-Christ, or in islamic terminology, the Dajjal (the Deceiver) to establish a perfect islamic society.

This may be shia Islam, but I'm not sure. I know the shia's 12th Imam is Mahdi, and that he will come back and do something, but what I don't know. In sunni Islam, Jesus will come just before Armageddon and lead the belivers to Judgement.

Originally posted by therophos


But, contrary to Christ, he leaded muslim armies into battle and raided Meccan caravans for booty.

The 'booty' was actually the muslims possesions that they had to leave behind in Mecca. The Meccans were trying to sell them in Damascus.

Originally posted by docyabut


therophos qoute - Furthermore, Christ's crucifixion is rejected in the Qur'an, where it's stated (or according to muslim belief, where God states) that Allah (God) created an illusion so that all Jesus' enemies thought that they were crucifying Him but, in fact, they were crucifying someone else (not specified but suggested to be Judas Iscariotes). Consequently, in Islam, Jesus rose up to Heaven alive and will remain there until the end of times.

 

Please explain as to why Islam  didn`t think it was Jesus, that was crucified, but yet was  rose to heaven alive?


In Christianity Jesus was crucified, then resurrected, then raised to heaven isn't it? In Islam, he wasn't crucified or resurrected, but was raised to heaven.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 04:17

The original question by Talleyrand,

I am aware that my quastion might sound provocative but was there a time in history of real peaceful coexistation between Islam and Christianity?                                                                                                                                   As any historian knows there has never been peaceful co-existence between Islam and Christianity. One to suggest that peaceful existence ever existed would have to ignore the facts of history. Here is a quotation from Wikipdia on treatment of DHIMMIS by muslims! 

Under Muslim rule, dhimmis were allowed to observe the commandments of their religions, albeit with many restrictions attached. In exchange, they had to pay taxes for the benefit of the Muslim community and faced additional regulations, some of them intentionally humiliating and serving to remind dhimmis of their inferiority vis-a-vis Muslims.[3] The overarching principle in the treatment of dhimmis is encapsulated in the statement: "Islam is exalted, and nothing is exalted above it"[4]. In the words of the British historian Bernard Lewis:

It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam began to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesman for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right. Traditional Islamic societies neither accorded such equality nor pretended that they were so doing. Indeed, in the old order, this would have been regarded not as a merit but as a dereliction of duty. How could one accord the same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it? This would be a theological as well as a logical absurdity.[5]

Being second-class subjects of Muslim states, dhimmis were allowed to live, and occasionally even prosper, to a large extent because they practiced valuable trades such as doctors or performed functions that Muslims could not perform for religious reasons such as usury.[6] However, dhimmis always lived on sufferance, vulnerable to whims of rulers and violence of mobs.[7]

                                                                                                                 THEOPHOS must NOT be unaware of history to say that Islam and Christianity ever co-existed as illustrated by DHIMMI laws. Today in Saudi Arabia it is illegal for a person to practice Christianity. However as we know, the United States, European and South American countries as well as some Asian countries, that are not Islamic or communist, allow for freedom of religion. This is in contrast to Islamic countries of our day who impose restrictive laws upon other religious groups. Thus the principles of DHIMMI are still practiced today! Freedom of religion in muslim countries is feared because conversions from Islam would occur. The fact is when a person decides to leave Islam he or she is to be murdered as prescribed in the HADITHS. The Hadith ---Sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad

Abu Dawud 38:4357 When the Apostle of Allah cut off the hands and feet of those who had stolen his camels and apostacised and had their eyes put out by fire, Allah reprimanded him and revealed: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for rnischief through the land is execution or crucifixion." (38A359).. or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land" This was "revealed about polytheists and if any of them repent before they are arrested it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment which he deserves"

Muslim 623 The Prophet said: "It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life (if the person is Muslim), and the deserter of Islam."

Bukhari 9:89:271 A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"                                                                                                                         Thus true co-existence is impossible because of persecution in Islamic governed countries, however Western societies allow freedom of religion.        &nb sp;         &nb sp;         &nb sp;         &nb sp;         &nb sp;         &nb sp;         &nb sp;     

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 04:20
Sharrukin wrote:

Ummm, no.  Abraham was a "wandering Aramaean" (according to the Book),

Which book are we talking about?

Deuteronomy 26:5.   Abrahams relatives in Aram Naharaim (or Padan Aram) were likewise called Aramaean (Genesis 25:20; cf. Genesis 22:20-24).

AV, Genesis 11: 31

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

(At that time Abram had not yet adopted the name Abraham.)

Living in Ur did not make one automatically a Chaldaean.  Ur was a cosmopolitan city attracting people from all over the Middle East and beyond.  Ur eventually became the possession of the Chaldaeans which inhabited the southernmost marshlands, but the population of Ur (and the other great cities of Babylonia was "Babylonian" (i.e. the Akkadian-speaking population of the south). 

Quote:

not because he was Aramaean but because after his family left Ur they settled in Harran.  The region of Harran was known anachronistically as either Padan Aram or Aram Naharaim, hence his relatives and himself became Aramaeans. 

You mean when I came to live in Luxembourg I stopped being British and became a Luxembourger?

Not the same concept.  "British" and "Luxembourger" are nationalities (self-identities based on the nation-state).  "Chaldaean" and "Aramaean" were tribal identities.   Today, just as in the past, a person's tribal identity can change, because the tribe allows for such absorption, and thus tribal identities or loyalties are quite fluid.  A case and point are the Bakhtiari and the Pashtuns.  The Pashtuns are loosing members to the Bakhtiari because the Bakhtiari welcome newcomers.  Former Pashtuns now identify themselves as Bakhtiari.

Viewing Abraham at least as a character in a book, the earliest mention of him has him coming from where the Chaldees lived. Now he could have been an alien invader from Alpha Centauri, but the minimal assumption has to be that he was supposed at least to be Chaldean.

The problem is that he is never given that identity.  The only other ethnic identity Abraham (Abram) is given is that of "Hebrew" (Genesis, 14:13).  Since Ur (regardless of the anachronistic use of "Chaldaean") was part of a land that was "many-tongued" any inhabitant of Ur may have been from any number of ethnic origins, not just "Chaldaean").  The term itself is not attested until about 850 BC, far too late to be an ethnic identification for Abram.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 05:02
To my previous post I meant to add that there are over 100 verses in the Quran that may be catogorized as war verses. Here is an example of one, SURA 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

                                                                                                                  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 06:56
Originally posted by Cuauhtemoc

Maju, I am obviously aware of the data and that is why I presented it, as the discussion had been solely based on personal opinion with blind prejudice; and or ignoring or at least believing a dogma without support. As I am sure you were aware of as you must have read the other earlier posts. It is rediculous to suggest that Adam and Eve never met, for even as you responded in ur answer to me with a clarification of what would appear as utter nonsense! As you stated with possible trepidation or at least a recognition that I would mention this, that is regarding different chronologies of the Y chromosome and MtDNA and I quote you, "this has SOME logic because statisticly men... and more lightly." I am aware how the data under question is interpreted, however it would be just as legitimate to conclude and more logical that original Adam and Eve did meet! Conclusions as you know many times, whether in the scientific or other areas are interpreted with prejudices or pre-conceived ideas. The fact is we have an ancient document believed to be written by GOD to be correct! Who would have believed humanity came from one women or man before this discovery? Rhetorical question I know, but the answer is NO ONE! I am sure you are aware that these discoveries startled the scientific world! They agreed with the Bible! If a person had a document thousands of years old, would they not point this out reasonably? As you know previous to this, the most popular theory was humanity evolved from different groups and different areas of the world. You may comfort yourself with other interpretations of the data, but the fact is its supports a document that many wish to disregard and if we throw in logic, Adam and Eve met! SHARUKIN, the data can be legitimately interpreted as i have done. You may comfort yourself by saying they refer to common ancestor, however it is interesting since there was a disregarded theory in an ANCIENT book known as the BIBLE that said all humans were decended from one pair and thus they named them Y chromosome "Adam" and Mitochrondia "Eve"! What could they do with this competing theory but give it recognition? As you must know sharukin the theory advanced before this discovery was that humans evolved from different groups and different parts of the world. Who would agree with that?www.bible.ca          &nbs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                


You're Bible-ranting. Genetical "Adam" and "Eve" lived in totally diferent times. That's all you can get from genetics.

You can also know that other people lived in those times and that many of them are also our ancestors, though not via an uninterrupted father-son or mother-daughter line.

You Bible-worshippers are always trying to justify your superstitions with pseudo-science... but you just can't. The True Book (reality)  deny your beliefs systematically.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 07:05
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


In Christianity Jesus was crucified, then resurrected, then raised to heaven isn't it? In Islam, he wasn't crucified or resurrected, but was raised to heaven.



And in reality?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:15
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Sharrukin wrote:

Ummm, no.  Abraham was a "wandering Aramaean" (according to the Book),

Which book are we talking about?

Deuteronomy 26:5.   Abrahams relatives in Aram Naharaim (or Padan Aram) were likewise called Aramaean (Genesis 25:20; cf. Genesis 22:20-24).

The AV in all these references has 'Syrian' not 'Aramaean' but I guess we can take them as equivalent.

However Deuteronomy 26:5 does not refer to Abram/Abraham, but, from the context, to Israel himself. "...A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation great, mighty and populous."

Now both Abraham and Israel 'went down into Egypt'. However the last clause quite obviously applies not to Abraham, but to his grandson Israel, founder of the nation of the "children of Israel." Israel therefore, native-born and livig in Canaan, was considered 'Syrian'.

From Genesis 37:1 however we know that Isaac, Israel's father, was a 'stranger' in Canaan, even though he was born there: yet more so must Abraham have been. As 'strangers' still, neither can therefore have qualified as 'Syrian' the way Israel does.

The other two quotations are somewhat confusing. Gen 22: 20-24 presents us with Abraham's brother and his descendants with no indication of nationality or residence or whatever (they are not listed among the people who left Ur with Abraham in the first place). Gen 25:20 describes some of the same family, including Isaac's father-in-law and brother-in-law as Syrians. Presumably therefore they and Isaac's wife Rebekkah are not 'strangers' in Canaan; all this only clears itself up is one accepts that affiliation is through the maternal line (not surprisingly as it still is in Judaism).

Jacob/Israel is therefore 'Syrian' because his mother was, not because his father was, nor of course because his grandfather Abraham was.

AV, Genesis 11: 31

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

(At that time Abram had not yet adopted the name Abraham.)

Living in Ur did not make one automatically a Chaldaean.  Ur was a cosmopolitan city attracting people from all over the Middle East and beyond.  Ur eventually became the possession of the Chaldaeans which inhabited the southernmost marshlands, but the population of Ur (and the other great cities of Babylonia was "Babylonian" (i.e. the Akkadian-speaking population of the south). 

Quote:

not because he was Aramaean but because after his family left Ur they settled in Harran.  The region of Harran was known anachronistically as either Padan Aram or Aram Naharaim, hence his relatives and himself became Aramaeans. 

You mean when I came to live in Luxembourg I stopped being British and became a Luxembourger?

Not the same concept.  "British" and "Luxembourger" are nationalities (self-identities based on the nation-state).  "Chaldaean" and "Aramaean" were tribal identities.   Today, just as in the past, a person's tribal identity can change, because the tribe allows for such absorption, and thus tribal identities or loyalties are quite fluid.  A case and point are the Bakhtiari and the Pashtuns.  The Pashtuns are loosing members to the Bakhtiari because the Bakhtiari welcome newcomers.  Former Pashtuns now identify themselves as Bakhtiari.

Depends very much on the tribe. Our main surviving relic of practices in those times and places is Judaism, in which, as I mentioned, is through the mother. Assimilation during later life is rare.

Abraham therefore would not have been able to become 'Syrian'. In his family that had to wait until Jacob was born to Rebekkah.

Viewing Abraham at least as a character in a book, the earliest mention of him has him coming from where the Chaldees lived. Now he could have been an alien invader from Alpha Centauri, but the minimal assumption has to be that he was supposed at least to be Chaldean.

The problem is that he is never given that identity.  The only other ethnic identity Abraham (Abram) is given is that of "Hebrew" (Genesis, 14:13).  Since Ur (regardless of the anachronistic use of "Chaldaean") was part of a land that was "many-tongued" any inhabitant of Ur may have been from any number of ethnic origins, not just "Chaldaean").  The term itself is not attested until about 850 BC, far too late to be an ethnic identification for Abram.

Despite what you said above, I understand that Ur was conquered by the Akkadian Sargon c. 2300BC. But anyway, we are talking about a book here. In saying Abraham came from a city of the Chaldees, obviously 'Chaldees' is being used in whatever sense the author of the text meant. I gather the Hebrew is Khasdim, or something, although that's probably only a back translation from whatever the Greek was in the septuagint.

When a Shakespearean character is washed up on the shore of Bohemia, there is little point in questioning whether the 'real' Bohemia had a 'real' coastline or not.  It's the meaning within the text that matters.

 

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