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A new era of islamic calvinism??
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Posts: 112 		  Quote DocStaph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new era of islamic calvinism??
    Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 21:13
Originally posted by sedamoun

It's impossible to live exactly like during Mohamed's time (what the Talibans want). Christianity has evolved, just like Islam and Judaism since their creation.

 
Did you know the Talibans personally? How is it that you know what they wanted?
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Posts: 112 		  Quote DocStaph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 21:09
How So Omar? Care to elaborate on your statment please!
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 13:17
Turkey will become more Islamisized only over the dead body of the Turkish military, proud safe keepers of the Kemalist ideals. I believe that  the sociological seed for  Turkey's  Islamic radicalization is there, but it will have to fight against the Kemalist establishment in order to survive. The military is the true power in Turkey, politically as well as economically.
 
 
Partly correct, its more complex than that however. The army isn't actually "anti-Islamic", today as part of millitary training and millitary schools religion is also taught, and many influential people in the army are proud of the successes of Turkish-Muslims. Infact in the Millitary headquarters there are many paintings in rememberance of the Ottomans, Timurids, Selcuks and the armed forces see's itself as the continuation of "Mete-Hans" army from 200 BC as the Turks of Turkey have never been ruled by another power.
 
The army and most people in Turkey see the army as the guaranteur protector of the nation. The army's purpose is to serve the country, that included respecting people's beliefs. It's suprising but religion is not supressed instead its quite free and often an important factor which is used.
 
Alot of Turkish nationalists also have respect for Islam or are quite religous as Islam never was forced on Turks and since they converted they achieved incredible success.
 
Also alot of religous people have respect for the army as they see it as the continuation of the muslim armies and if it wasn't for the army they would be living under a non-Muslim power and feel more religously oppressed.
 
The millitary is the main power but what alot of people in the West find hard to comprehend is that the army is actually the most trusted organisation in Turkey. People don't fear or have a problem with the millitary having power. In the millitary people of all social backgrounds have a chance to succeed. In pollitics only the rich and well connected do. Plus all people see polliticians do is cheat, be greedy and if they had the chance they'd sell half the country. In the current environment of Turkey;s location the worst possible action could be the millitary handing all its power over to the polliticians. Unlike in the West, any Tom Dick and Harry can start up a party pump it full of dirty money, use mass media propoganda get elected screw up and then vanish, parties fly and leave in Turkey. Most people have no time for their games and so have far more trust in the millitary whose primary goal is simply for Turkey.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 04:00
If anything, I am tending to side with the Nestorian heresy of the old days which claimed that the godhead is way too complex to be comprehended by our own miniscule human minds and one should focus on one's own personal being in order to attain enlightment. In other words, God is reachable and attainable indivindually by each one of us without the "assistance" of organized religion.

Thats pretty much what Islam teaches as well.
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Posts: 762 		  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 19:10
I am not religious but I was born and baptized Christian Orthodox. Without wanting to offend anyone, let me say this: I have lost my conviction in monotheism. All three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) carry within the seed of their own destruction which is this: that they are intolerant of others and all carry the element of forceful conversion which leads to persecution and war.
If anything, I am tending to side with the Nestorian heresy of the old days which claimed that the godhead is way too complex to be comprehended by our own miniscule human minds and one should focus on one's own personal being in order to attain enlightment. In other words, God is reachable and attainable indivindually by each one of us without the "assistance" of organized religion. But this would jeopardize the comfortable living that muftis, rabbis, and bishops have set up for themselves at the expense of the rest of society for  well over a thousand  years now so the status qvo  remains as is.

On Turkey:
Turkey will become more Islamisized only over the dead body of the Turkish military, proud safe keepers of the Kemalist ideals. I believe that  the sociological seed for  Turkey's  Islamic radicalization is there, but it will have to fight against the Kemalist establishment in order to survive. The military is the true power in Turkey, politically as well as economically. The military has replaced traditional Islamic dogmas with a hardcore, potent nationalism that puts the nation first and religion, well, somewhere back there. I don't see this changing in the next decade, sort of a  domestic Islamic uprising that the military would crush anyway.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 18:15
i think condition to   islamic reforms.but that is not like cristian's.muslims peoples are use quran and sunnet.but i use just quran (allah's words).im not believe  true reach the  today to muhammeds says.i think
enough the quran in my life
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Posts: 215 		  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 01:42
Originally posted by ill_teknique

- the sunna was written and composed by mortal fallible individuals who are no more special than anyone else why would not some of them be deviating from their original version.  And even al bukhari was a human being that might've been able to make a mistake.  The sunna is there for examples not to be prior to the qu'ran
 
Everybody can make mistakes. Even the prophets.
We are all human.
 
He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.When the blind man came to him.How do you know? He may purify himself. Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.As for the rich man.You gave him your attention.Even though you could not guarantee his salvation.The one who came to you eagerly.And is really reverent.You ignored him.Indeed, this is a reminder.
[80:1-11]
 
Moreover, God commanded Pophet to Say:
 
Say: "If I am in error it is to may own loss;if I am on guidence that is so because of what my Lord reveals to me.He is all-hearing and all-too-near.
[34:50]
 
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Posts: 215 		  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 00:46
Originally posted by Maju

Long life to corruption and distortion of the messengers' messages...
 
Quran is not corrupted. It is preserved.
What is corrupted is what Muslim world calls Hadiths.
 
Do you know what is Hadith?
After the death of prophet, like 200- 250 years after, some people began to collect claimed to be sayings of the prophet.
 
Imagine that you don't like Muslims.
Somebody comes to your door and asks:
 
Do you know any sayings from the prophet?
-- Yes of course! My grand grand father told my grand father. And my grand father told my father, and my father told me.
What is it?
..... Evil Smile In heaven men get 70 wifes!
 
 
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Posts: 215 		  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 00:30
Originally posted by OSMANLI

"So obey Allah and obey his Messenger..."
Qur'an 64:12
 
Where is the rest of the verse? The whole verse is:
 
You shall obey GOD and you shall obey the messenger. If you turn away, then the sole mission of our messenger is to deliver the message.
[64:12]
 
No doubt the message is Quran, and it is complete.
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Posts: 215 		  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 00:07
Originally posted by Maju

 And the very Quran, if I'm not wrong, warns that it is enough in itself.
 
Clap
 
There is not an animal that crawls in the earth, nor a bird that flies on its two wings, but they are communities like you. WE have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they all be gathered together.
[6:38]
 
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
[6:114]
 
Assuredly, in their narrative is a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a thing that has been forged, but a fulfillment of that which is before it and a detail exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy to people who believe.
[12:111]
 
These are revelations of God which we recite to you correctly: In what other lore but God and His manifestations would they then believe. Allas the woe for every dissembling sinner.
 
[45:6-7]
 
 
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 20:14
Regarding Islamic calvinism, the BBC had an ineresting article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4788712.stm


A new form of Turkish Islam is emerging here, one which is pro-business and pro-free market, and it's being called Islamic Calvinism.
http://www.journalof911studies.com
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 09:33
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by malizai_

An arrow shot form the bow of ignorance always misses its mark. In case you never took a class in religious studies, u may read at ur leisure.

As a matter of fact I even had a school textbook on comparative religion published (by McGraw-Hill) about 30 years ago. It was pretty widely used in UK schools.

I never actually taught a class in religious studies, but my collaborator on the book was a long-time professional RE teacher (and a Christian).

U know what... reading back that comment of mine seems a bit arrogant and entirely unneccesary, sorry!! If anything that should have been a privately held view.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 08:32
Originally posted by malizai_

An arrow shot form the bow of ignorance always misses its mark. In case you never took a class in religious studies, u may read at ur leisure.

As a matter of fact I even had a school textbook on comparative religion published (by McGraw-Hill) about 30 years ago. It was pretty widely used in UK schools.

I never actually taught a class in religious studies, but my collaborator on the book was a long-time professional RE teacher (and a Christian).



Edited by gcle2003
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 08:20

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

This is what my friend said:

Now this is Gospel: (and rather long, but although it is not specifically spelled out when Jesus says: 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " then sexual immorality could definitely include homosexual behaviour.

Sexual immorality could include homosexual immorality. It doesn't follow that all homosexual behaviour is immoral, any more than all heterosexual behaviour is immoral.

It isnt however spelled out. Especially since sex out of marriage is a sexual immorality and marriage is specifically between a man and a woman.)

Heterosexual sex outside of marriage is 'immoral'. That's standard in most cultures. After all it amounts to breaking a promise if nothing else, and, as I've mentioned before elsewhere it endangers property inheritance rules.

The AV has

21:For from within, from the hearts of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22: Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness;

23: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Which is reasonable enough, and in line with other passages that sin comes from within. But you notice 'homosexuality' per se is not mentioned. Adultery and fornication throughout the texts are frowned on, but in contexts that refer to illegitimate male-female relationships. 'Lasciviousness' means 'lust' of any kind.

Even if you do read into the text some condemnation of homosexuality per se (as opposed to homosexual lust or promiscuity) it still is only being classed with a whole string of other offences including pride and simple foolishness, not as something particularly to be condemned.

And the whole thing is subject to Jesus' overriding commandments to love your neighbour, and perhaps more than anything here, that no-one except those without sin should cast the first stone.

And who could consider himself to be able to do that without suffering himself from pride?

 



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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 20:37
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Originally posted by Osmanli

How can one call your self an 'Islamic Reformer', since any changhe to Islam is consdered a 'Bidda' which is totally 'Haram' unlawfull.
I totally agree


In that case you should abandon all your hadith and sunna based practices, which are often even against the Quran.

That is truly haram.

the sunna is not again the Quran. not even a littel.

the sunna explains the quran in sayings and practice of the Prophet.



Actually, most of the time when discussion some of the Islamic practices, wether controversial or not, they aren't in the Quran but in the Sunna/Hadiths. This means that the essence has been decorated with much stuff that is not what The Prophet preached but what other say about his preaching, life or whatever.

And the very Quran, if I'm not wrong, warns that it is enough in itself.

I think that Sunna has corrupted Quran, like St. Paul and the Church dogma corrupted Christ's message. Not that I have anything against that corruption... but each thing must be named by their proper name.

Long life to corruption and distortion of the messengers' messages...

I agree with the bulk of that. Muslims should remember that the Qu'ran is the definition of Islam, and the sunnah is an aid to help you practice or understand it. You shouldn't start basing beliefs on Hadises alone.
The Sunnah hasn't corrupted the Qu'ran. Because the Qu'ran is still the same unchanged. The Church never had a Qu'ran, the bible is more like a lot of hadises strung together. Its what people think that Jesus said, not what he actually said.
You should always think about what your doing, or what or believing in. Since the message is preserved in the Qu'ran any thinking person should be able to figure out whats idle tradition and what is important sunnah.  Men and Women praying seperately in mosques, make sense. The mosque I got to is always packed, your always bumping into people. If you add girls into the mix (the girls currently have a separate section upstairs), suddenly your going to want to bump into them. Your whole reason for going to the Mosque will change from Piety to girls.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 13:37

An arrow shot form the bow of ignorance always misses its mark. In case you never took a class in religious studies, u may read at ur leisure.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

"The Old Testament

The collection of books that the majority of Christians (including members of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches) call the Old Testament includes not only the 24 books of the Jewish Tanakh, but also certain deuterocanonical books preserved in the Greek of the Septuagint. The Roman Catholic Church recognizes seven such books (Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach [Ecclesiasticus], and Baruch), as well as some passages in Esther and Daniel, that are not included in the Jewish Scriptures. Various Orthodox Churches include a few others, typically 3 Maccabees, Psalm 151, 1 Esdras, Odes, Psalms of Solomon, and occasionally even 4 Maccabees. Protestants in general do not recognize these books as truly part of the Bible, though they may print them along with the books they do recognize.

The New Testament

The New Testament is a collection of 27 books with Jesus as its central figure, written primarily in Koine Greek in the early Christian period, that almost all Christians recognize as Scripture. These can be grouped into:

Those "jewish  scriptures" u referred to are a part of the bible. Jesus was a jew. He upheld the mosaic law(earlier jewish scripture).

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17 KJV)<--GOSPEL

here is another flavour

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. (Mat 5:17 NET)

 
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 10:18

Originally posted by gcle2003

It seems to me that you're the one who has the problem with the Gospels because they don't back you up.

What do you have to say about my second reply to you?
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Posts: 4030 		  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 09:58
Originally posted by Cywr

Havn't Bosnians been doing this for ages already?


You mean men and women praying together? Yes and no.

Our mosques have never had separate entrances for women and only the very  largest had separate outdoor prayer areas. On warm days, men would pray on the right side, women on the left. On cold days, men would generally let women have all the inside space and they would pray outside on the right and left sides.

Sons are always taken to mosque from a very young age, always. Daughters - it's less strict. They can go, they can not go - whatever.

In the countryside, it was only within the last century that women really started going to mosque at all. You see footage from the largest massacres, like Srebrenica - and there are a lot of women at the funerals. But visit a Bosnian village for a regular funeral - the women will gather some distance away from the actual mosque and cemetery. You may notice Bosniak women tend to wail much more than you'd witness in Western cultures, this is why - they had to be loud simply to be heard.

The most common exception to the rule above was caring for and cleaning the mosque. Women would spend their days at the mosque as though it was their home - sweeping, planting flowers, dusting, polishing, sitting on the steps for coffee - and they'd just leave or stand nearby when the prayer services began.

You can witness this today even in major cities with a lot of refugees from rural areas. For example, Tuzla is the fourth largest city in the country and women rarely attend services at the main downtown mosque:
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 09:45
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Originally posted by Osmanli

How can one call your self an 'Islamic Reformer', since any changhe to Islam is consdered a 'Bidda' which is totally 'Haram' unlawfull.
I totally agree


In that case you should abandon all your hadith and sunna based practices, which are often even against the Quran.

That is truly haram.

the sunna is not again the Quran. not even a littel.

the sunna explains the quran in sayings and practice of the Prophet.



Actually, most of the time when discussion some of the Islamic practices, wether controversial or not, they aren't in the Quran but in the Sunna/Hadiths. This means that the essence has been decorated with much stuff that is not what The Prophet preached but what other say about his preaching, life or whatever.

And the very Quran, if I'm not wrong, warns that it is enough in itself.

I think that Sunna has corrupted Quran, like St. Paul and the Church dogma corrupted Christ's message. Not that I have anything against that corruption... but each thing must be named by their proper name.

Long life to corruption and distortion of the messengers' messages...

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 09:18
Originally posted by malizai

The point was simply this: "homosexuality is abhored by the christian text". It doesn't really matter what your or my view is of the text or if we agree with its ethics.

First u had the problem with the new testament, now the old. So u now have a problem with the "whole testeament".  Sorry mate but u cant be helped.

It wasn't me brought in the old testament. The point is that while you say 'Christian text' all you can find in support is either from the Jewish text or from Paul's post-Christian text.

I don't have a problem with the 'whole testament' because I don't have a problem with the Gospels. What I was asking you to do was to back up your assertion with something that came from the only central Christian texts - the four Gospels and their recording of what Jesus said.

It seems to me that you're the one who has the problem with the Gospels because they don't back you up.

 
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