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Timotheus
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Topic: A new era of islamic calvinism?? Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 22:00 |
Very interesting how it's called "Islamic Calvinism" and references a loosening of rules. It's actually very historically accurate, as that is actually what Calvin did (among many more important things), but usually in the western world "Calvinism" is met with a shudder of hate and disgust and loathing of fundamentalists.
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Scorpius
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Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 16:14 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Thank you scorpius for answering my Q's. I greatly appreciate the information you have provided. |
You are very welcome
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DocStaph
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Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 14:45 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
I think your being intentionally difficult. Its simple, if you can afford to do Hajj during your life time then you must. If you cannot afford it, you don't.
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Oh no! This discussion has taken a detour! let's get back to the original discussion in regards to communism and islam being similar or with similar ideas.
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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DocStaph
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Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 14:43 |
Thank you scorpius for answering my Q's. I greatly appreciate the information you have provided.
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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Scorpius
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 21:28 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Where did five pillars evolve from? Which Book? |
They are written in Quran. I will try to show you a few of the verses but actually there are more verses than I am presenting here.
SALAT (CONTACT PRAYERS)
The Dawn Prayer
"O ye who believe ! let those whom your right hand possess, and those of you, who have not reached puberty, ask leave of you at three times before coming into your private apartments -before the Morning Prayer, and when you lay aside your clothes at noon (in summer) and after the night Prayer. These are the three times of privacy for you. At other times there is no blame on you nor on them, for some of you have to attend upon others and to move about freely according to need. Thus does ALLAH make plain to you the Signs; for ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise."
[24:58]
The Noon Prayer
'Observe Prayer from the declining and paling of the sun till the darkness of the night, and recite the Qur'an at dawn. Verily, the recitation of the Qur'an at dawn is specially acceptable to ALLAH.'
[17:78]
The Afternoon Prayer
"Watch over prayers, and particularly the middle Prayer, and stand before ALLAH submissively."
[2:238]
The Sunset Prayer and The Night Prayer
"And observe Prayer at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night. Surely, good works drive away evil ones. This is a reminder for those who would remember. "
[11:114]
SHADADA (DECLERATION OF FAITH) [1]
"[1] God bears witness that there is no god but HE - and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining justice; [1] there is no God but HE, the Mighty, the Wise. "
[3:18]
FASTING
"The prescribed fasting is for a fixed number of days, but whose among you is sick or on a journey, shall fast the same number of other days; and for those who are able to fast only with great difficulty, is an expiation - the feeding of a poor man. And whoso does good of his own accord it is better for him. And fasting is good for you, if you only knew. Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation."
[2:184-185]
HAJJ
"You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and`Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution."
[2:196]
ZAKAT (Obligatory Charity)
"The only people to frequent GOD's masjids are those who believe in GOD and the Last Day, and observe the Salat, and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and do not fear except GOD. These will surely be among the guided ones."
[9:18]
"The believing men and women are allies of one another. They advocate righteousness and forbid evil, they observe the Salat and and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they obey GOD and His messenger. These will be showered by GOD's mercy. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."
[9:71]
Edited by Scorpius - 09-Sep-2006 at 21:34
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 20:59 |
Originally posted by Quran 2:192
] And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if
ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such
as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the
place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his
scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or
feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions
(again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must
make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He
should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making
ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts
of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in
punishment. |
I think your being intentionally difficult. Its simple, if you can afford to do Hajj during your life time then you must. If you cannot afford it, you don't.
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 09-Sep-2006 at 21:03
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DocStaph
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 20:17 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Ahhh so the rich will be able to complet the five pillars of islam, and the poor can only hope and dream to complete the last pillar...Ahhh sorrows.. |
No. The poor can complete the hajj requirement by fasting. See [2:196].
After a brief search through the Qurans index on the USC site. I can't find any mention of Hajj cleansing your past sins.
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Ahhh that is unfair indeed! Why should have to fast when there dreams and thoughts are set upon the kabba which they bow to on a daily basis. Sorrrows.. You have been given the opportunity to fulfill the 5 pillars where as the poor have to fast and fast more.. What about will happen to their Liver? OR wait a minute, lets discuss malnutrition and dehydration.. Endlist less of symptoms arise from fasting in onsense.. I must admit fasting is healthy on certain level.. But your statment that these poor who have noo food in the first place should fast more.. I am completely dumbfounded on your statment.
Go back up and read my statement in regards to your statment... Where did five pillars evolve from? Which Book? What is the purpose of Hajj?
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 19:52 |
Ahhh so the rich will be able to complet the five pillars of
islam, and the poor can only hope and dream to complete the last
pillar...Ahhh sorrows.. |
No. The poor can complete the hajj requirement by fasting. See [2:196]. After a brief search through the Qurans index on the USC site. I can't find any mention of Hajj cleansing your past sins.
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Scorpius
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 18:23 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Do you live by the words of the Quran? |
Only God knows. I am doing my best but why do u ask this question I don't get it ?
I simply ask your source of information since you are basing your discussion on something I am not aware of and never read before in Quran.
and still I am waiting for your answer. Would you please inform this soul in which sura/verses in Quran you read that Hajj cleans all your past sins?
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DocStaph
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 14:00 |
Originally posted by Scorpius
Your assumption is based on doing Hajj makes your past sins forgiven and yet I now realized Omar has asked you (before me in my previous post) in which sura you read it and as long as I know, there is none. So if you provide us the sura you are using for your claim then we can talk about it with knowledge. |
Do you live by the words of the Quran?
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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DocStaph
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 13:59 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by DocStaph
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Sorry, doesn't work like that. Hajj is only compulsory if you can afford it, if you can't your excused and the only judge to whether you can afford it? God.
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Ahhh so the rich will be able to complet the five pillars of islam, and the poor can only hope and dream to complete the last pillar...Ahhh sorrows..
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 01:21 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing
tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because
those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly
basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Sorry, doesn't work like that. Hajj is only compulsory if you can
afford it, if you can't your excused and the only judge to whether you
can afford it? God.
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Scorpius
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:50 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Your assumption is based on doing Hajj makes your past sins forgiven and yet I now realized Omar has asked you (before me in my previous post) in which sura you read it and as long as I know, there is none. So if you provide us the sura you are using for your claim then we can talk about it with knowledge.
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Scorpius
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:42 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Nice Shot! But nevertheless, by performing the hajj, one entails to an endless past of sins forgiven, just by swarming around the kabaa 7 times and kissing a rock which could possible be a meteorite from heaven as the legend fortails. |
In which sura it is said that by doing Hajj, all of your past sins are forgiven?
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DocStaph
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:46 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim. I haven't heard that before. Do you have a quote from Quran?
Even then, its God doing the forgiving not the clergy.
Would you agree..
No, not really. Selling forgiveness at a price, is not the same as spending money to get to Hajj. Well, I suppose it depends on the motives of that person actually, but since only God is a judge of our intentions we get back to the no intercessors between you and God part. [/QUOTE
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute.
Edited by DocStaph - 08-Sep-2006 at 19:47
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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DocStaph
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:42 |
Well said. The same principle applies in Christianity. There is you and you're relationship with God. The curch is meant to provide guidance and support, not dictate conditions for the afterlife. There might have been misrepresentations by the church in the past (its headed by humans after-all) but this is exactly the sort of thing the reformists like Martin Luther were changing. Unfortunately humans corrupt everything they touch and every now-and-again we need to step back and look at ourselves and what we are doing. |
The Church is corrupt! The mosques are corrupt and the synogues are corrupt as well! A wise man once stated!
"The church was built by the Romans and runned by the Jews" There is more to this quote, I have to remember it properly.....
Martin Luther was good man indeed! He wanted to bring humanity back to its rightful saviour!
Edited by DocStaph - 08-Sep-2006 at 19:42
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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Eondt
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 09:25 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
How So Omar? Care to elaborate on your statment please! |
In some religions the clergy has a direct say in your afterlife. Must be in communion with the church, or must be buired on church land etc. Islam rejects these ideas. The only person who can affect you state is yourself. Its your actions and your beliefs that will be judged. Not the opinions of a priest.
There is you, there is God and no-one inbetween.
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Well said. The same principle applies in Christianity. There is you and you're relationship with God. The curch is meant to provide guidance and support, not dictate conditions for the afterlife. There might have been misrepresentations by the church in the past (its headed by humans after-all) but this is exactly the sort of thing the reformists like Martin Luther were changing. Unfortunately humans corrupt everything they touch and every now-and-again we need to step back and look at ourselves and what we are doing.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 19:55 |
Nice Shot! But nevertheless, by performing the hajj, one entails to an
endless past of sins forgiven, just by swarming around the kabaa 7
times and kissing a rock which could possible be a meteorite from
heaven as the legend fortails. |
I haven't heard that before. Do you have a quote from Quran? Even then, its God doing the forgiving not the clergy.
If Rome built the vatican by forgiving the sins in return for
compensation, the saudi, is doing the same. In the sense perfoming Hajj
nowadays costs thousands and thousands of dollars.... That profit is
used to expand the kabaa and use it as a tourist attraction.. Which
therefore entails that sins are forgiven for a price...
Would you agree... |
No, not really. Selling forgiveness at a price, is not the same as spending money to get to Hajj. Well, I suppose it depends on the motives of that person actually, but since only God is a judge of our intentions we get back to the no intercessors between you and God part.
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DocStaph
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 17:30 |
Nice Shot! But nevertheless, by performing the hajj, one entails to an endless past of sins forgiven, just by swarming around the kabaa 7 times and kissing a rock which could possible be a meteorite from heaven as the legend fortails.
If Rome built the vatican by forgiving the sins in return for compensation, the saudi, is doing the same. In the sense perfoming Hajj nowadays costs thousands and thousands of dollars.... That profit is used to expand the kabaa and use it as a tourist attraction.. Which therefore entails that sins are forgiven for a price...
Would you agree...
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 23:27 |
How So Omar? Care to elaborate on your statment please! |
In some religions the clergy has a direct say in your afterlife. Must
be in communion with the church, or must be buired on church land etc.
Islam rejects these ideas. The only person who can affect you state is
yourself. Its your actions and your beliefs that will be judged. Not
the opinions of a priest.
There is you, there is God and no-one inbetween.
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 06-Sep-2006 at 23:28
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