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A new era of islamic calvinism??

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  Quote cebeci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new era of islamic calvinism??
    Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 12:33

for the last two days turkey is being quaked by photographs of women and men praying side by side in a mosque

many believe this is one of the first impressions of new reformist or in other words calvinist/protestant action in islam striving to smoothen the strict rules of islam by creating its own religious rules

many religious leaders and ordinary people from the street, on the other hand, consider it as a dynamite being put to the base of islam. They think that islam is being look like christianism day by day.

so what do you think on this and other efforts on reform in islam

do you think that islam in succeding years will look like as what it is today

does it something to do with USA's new middleeast project? http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=3834814 &tarih=2006-01-24

history is just a repetation of itself
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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 12:46

This is really bad.

How can one call your self an 'Islamic Reformer', since any changhe to Islam is consdered a 'Bidda' which is totally 'Haram' unlawfull.

There has for many years now been these so-called modern Muslims, whether they are gay, women Imams etc.

But at the end if they cannot find verses from the Qur'an Sunnah to back there actions then they are highly sinfull. The west will ofcourse back such actions, since they will always try to dilute Islam.

"They think that islam is being look like christianism day by day."

Never, i as i have mentioned before practising Mumin Muslims are increasing as are converts to Islam.

"do you think that islam in succeding years will look like as what it is today "

It may infact go back to how it was in the past, Muslims following the true Islam (Qur'an and Sunnah), thus they will also be educated in worldly knowledge since Islam requires this to.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 13:50
Havn't Bosnians been doing this for ages already?
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote cebeci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 13:52
i donno. mila may answer
history is just a repetation of itself
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 15:05
There seems to be also a maybe related tendency to take Quran as it is, without the Sunna and the Hadiths. A sort of "purified" Islam? 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 15:09
This is excellent, protestantism is EXACTLY what Islam needs to bring Islamic countries out of the dark ages.
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  Quote cebeci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 15:12

well actually according to the reformists Quran  did not mention the form of faith but the faith itself

i mean it dictated to fast, pray (namaz), going to hadj etc but the forms of fulfilling the obligations were defined later by hadiths and sunnet (actions of prophet mohammed.

in turkey it is beginning to form a group of people setting their rules of faith

history is just a repetation of itself
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 16:21
How can Islam have a protestant reformation anyways? Part of the drive of the reformation was against the whole central pope thing, which Islam doesn't have.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote cebeci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 16:29

there are many liberals in turkey believing the religion was corrupted by arbitrary applications of clerics which never existed in first days of islam. they believe that women were pushed backward by men-dominance and should regain their position throughout. Our women can not take part many religious events in the equal terms compared to men, rather they must stand a step back.

reform is not against to someone or something but it is applied when current practice does not work properly.

history is just a repetation of itself
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 17:06
Ah.
Meh, you'll just end up with another branch of Islam, not a total reform.
If they are hung up about mixed prayers, why don't they just become Alevis, they'd been doing it that way for like a millennia.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 05:54
People have mixed prayers in Hajj and Umra. 

These so-called reformers are obviously ignorant of the reason why men and women are segregated in prayers. 
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 21:17
My grandfather and grandmother have been doing that since i can remember.    The sunna should be used as a source for moral conduct but not as the primary source of islamic behavior.  I personally think that most of it is in fact correct and factual but some of it not necesarily people dont realize that the qu'ran is the only book that contains the words of god directly - the sunna was written and composed by mortal fallible individuals who are no more special than anyone else why would not some of them be deviating from their original version.  And even al bukhari was a human being that might've been able to make a mistake.  The sunna is there for examples not to be prior to the qu'ran
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 01:54
Originally posted by cebeci

so what do you think on this and other efforts on reform in Islam

I don't think it reforms Islam, but it deforms Islam.

Why don't people leave a faith they don't like and get on with it.

i.e: Don't be a Christian homosexual bishop. Be a homosexual or a bishop. Because u r trying to do the impossible. For u can not reconcile the Christian text with a practice, that the text openly abhors.

I mean start your own religion or something. For by doing the above u r not following Christianity but your whim. It stupefies me that they can still call their religion Islam. You can not throw away the tenet's of a belief and keep the label.

If i was prostrating behind a couple of fit women with their asses hanging out in the air, i know where my concentration would be.

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 16:39
Do you have to prostrate at all? I know that Quran doesn't mention that: it doesn't belong to the core of Islam but to the peripherical elaboration... 

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 05:06
The Noble Qur'an: Al-Baqara 2:143-145
   Thus We have made you [true Muslims -- real believers of Islamic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunna  (legal ways)], a just (and the best) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind and the Messenger (Muhammad ) be a witness over you.  And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad ) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger).  Indeed it was great (heavy) except for those whom Allah guided.  And Allah would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem).  Truly, Allah is full of Kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind.

     Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's ) face towards the heaven.  Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makka).  And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction.  Cerainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'ba at Makka in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

     And even if you were to bring to the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) all the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they would not follow your Qiblah (prayer direction), nor are you going to follow their Qiblah (prayer direction).  

"... establish regular prayer, for prayer restrains (a person) from doing shameful and wrong actions. The remembrance of Allah is the greatest with out doubt, and Allah knows what you do" Qur'an 29:45

"I have not created jins and humans but, for my worship"

And for those that doubt the Sunnah (again i am proving this)

"So obey Allah and obey his Messenger..."

Qur'an 64:12

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 07:10
But nowhere says that you must postrate. 

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 10:10
so what if the quran doesnt mention it?
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 12:09
That it's not an obligation for Muslims. You can pray in other ways, more proper of a free person. 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 12:42

Reform can mean many things. The reform I would like to see is one that steers from ignorance. Insight and an intelligent review of Islam should be researched for a better understanding.

I am all for reform.

What this basically means is to increase our knowledge of this religion and accept what is truthful about it and challenge the accepted norm in some instances. Most of our current traditions are brought into religion and hence created. But they were not part of the religion originally. A good look at Islam can hurt no one, except for those who think they have something to lose.

Maju needs a bit of correction. Prostration is mentioned throughout the Quran.

Chapter 2
2:125 And We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
Chapter 3
3:43 "O Mary, be devoted to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."
3:113 They are not all the same, from the people of the Scripture are a nation that is upright; they recite God's revelations during parts of the night and they prostrate.
Chapter 4
4:102 And if thou are with them and hold the contact-method for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet contacted come and contact with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you keep from placing down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
Chapter 9
9:112 Those who repent, those who serve, those who thank, those who wander in devotion, those who kneel, those who prostrate, those who order good and deter from evil, and those who keep the boundaries of God. And give good news to the believers.
Chapter 15
15:98 So glorify with the praise of your Lord, and be of those who prostrate.
Chapter 22
22:26 And We have appointed to Abraham the place of the sanctuary: "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My sanctuary for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and those who kneel and prostrate."
22:77 O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
Chapter 25
25:60 And if they are told: "Prostrate to the Almighty." They Say: "And what is the Almighty? Shall we prostrate to what you order us?" And it increases their aversion.
Chapter 26
26:219 And your movements amongst those who prostrate.
Chapter 27
27:25 "Will they not prostrate to God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Chapter 41
41:37 And from among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun, nor the moon; you shall prostrate to God who created them, if it is truly Him you serve.
Chapter 53
53:62 You shall prostrate to God, and serve.
Chapter 68
68:42 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.
68:43 With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to prostrate when they were whole and able.
Chapter 76
76:26 And from the night you shall prostrate to Him and praise Him throughout.
Chapter 84
84:21 And when the Quran is being related to them, they do not prostrate.
Chapter 96
96:19 Alas, do not obey him, prostrate and come near.



Edited by Seko
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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 15:22

But nowhere says that you must postrate. 

"So obey Allah and obey his Messenger..."

Qur'an 64:12

Messenger (PBUH) prayed and orderd to pray: Yes, so we pray

Cannot be asked for this long debate inwhich parts of threads be ignored. We established in long threads prior about the importance of the Sunnah.

That it's not an obligation for Muslims. You can pray in other ways, more proper of a free person. 

Islam already teaches Muslim's that this world is a prison for the Muslims and a paradise for the non-Muslim. So yes, iam proud to be saying that iam a slave of the one and only lord. I am not shamed to bow down to my creator. I can only pray the the lord, Allah shows you the way of Islam so that you can feel what my soul is feeling at the time of prayer.

Nor will i look down and try with every opurtunity to put other beliefs and their practices down since Islam teaches me this respect.

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