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Topic ClosedWas Basil II of Byzantium Evil?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Basil II of Byzantium Evil?
    Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 23:00
I do not see how he would have been evil, when he did not necesarily do anything that is contrary to contemporary society's standards and values. If he had been a contemporary political figure, and blinded tens of thousands of POWs then that would be a different case, and one would see at least a facet of cruelty, and "evil" for the lack of a better word in the deed. Now to apply that to a time period in history, where he could have just sold them into slavery, or even killed them, blinding does not seem such a bad option. When you look at it from that perspective, he spared their lives, and they retained their freedom. Basil II was under a lot of pressure to stabilize the Eastern Empire, Bulgaria had been a part of the Empire for hundreds of years. These territories fell to the Romans before Marinus even. He saw it as a right to own it, not to mention that simply sending the soldiers back and requesting tribute, or ransom would still leave half of the Balkan frontier open to another attack by a farily competitive, very agressive, and comptetent foe. He was a competent, calculating, and capable ruler; simply put he had a problem at hand, one that if handled any other way, would haunt him, or another sucessor, and Basil being the statesman he had been, he simply put two and two togheter, and opted to solve the problem more or less permamently, a sucess when you look at it that way considering that Bulgaria became a province of the Empire for generations to come. He was not evil for his time at all, he was generous, he could have done much worse. The Bulgarian armies sucumbed to rapine and pillaging on their campaigns, he did neither, he went to the heart of the matter, the armed forces and dealt with a military issue. Salah ad-Din did the same when he executed Templars, they were the creme de la creme of the Crusader states, they were formidable, zelous, and competent Knights, that would trouble him in sucessive campaigns so he opted for the solution that would rid him of that nuissance, not to mention that it was a political action just as Basil's had been for both the home front and the foe's alike.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 07:30
The Bulgarian armies sucumbed to rapine and pillaging on their campaigns,
 
but
 
he did neither
 
 
How is that??? Do you really believe that rapings and pillagings were a prerogative of "barbarian" armies like Bulgarians but not army of Byzantines? LOL


Edited by Anton - 01-Feb-2007 at 07:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 10:58

I dont think that the Byzantine soldiers would  pillage the cities which they owned -shortly lost to bulgarian rulers- nor they would rape the women and children who were going to be citizens of their empire.The only massive rape commited by the Byzantines was in the battlefield LOL...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:12
No comments Dead
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 19:17
Originally posted by Anton

The Bulgarian armies sucumbed to rapine and pillaging on their campaigns,
 
but
 
he did neither
 
 
How is that??? Do you really believe that rapings and pillagings were a prerogative of "barbarian" armies like Bulgarians but not army of Byzantines? LOL
 
 
In this particular case that was fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 19:44
Originally posted by es_bih

 
In this particular case that was fact.
 
What particular case? Bulgarians of Samuil and Byzantines of Basil or just Bulgarians and Byzantines? In any case I would like to ask you to post some proofs for that. I don't want to say that Bulgarians were friendly peacemakers but Byzantine warriors were not angels either. Remember what Nicephorus did in Pliska?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 22:56
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by es_bih

 
In this particular case that was fact.
 
What particular case? Bulgarians of Samuil and Byzantines of Basil or just Bulgarians and Byzantines? In any case I would like to ask you to post some proofs for that. I don't want to say that Bulgarians were friendly peacemakers but Byzantine warriors were not angels either. Remember what Nicephorus did in Pliska?
 
 
Yes this particular incident the blinding of the Bulgarian soldiers, it came as a repramend for Bulgarian incursions into Byzantine territory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 12:01
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by es_bih

 
In this particular case that was fact.
 
What particular case? Bulgarians of Samuil and Byzantines of Basil or just Bulgarians and Byzantines? In any case I would like to ask you to post some proofs for that. I don't want to say that Bulgarians were friendly peacemakers but Byzantine warriors were not angels either. Remember what Nicephorus did in Pliska?
 
 
Yes this particular incident the blinding of the Bulgarian soldiers, it came as a repramend for Bulgarian incursions into Byzantine territory.


Anton was talking about what Nicephorus did at Pliska-he ordered the whole city to be butchered-women,children,babies,old men...
This was what was left in the city since Krum Strashni colected all possible soldiers to block all the passes in Stara PlaninaAngry


Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 02-Feb-2007 at 12:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 13:12
Do you have any sources to proove that?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 13:17
Originally posted by Athanasios

Do you have any sources to proove that?
 
Surely he has: Theophanes Chronographia.
 
 
So, returning to main question, basically, Basil comparing to Nicephorus was not evil at al. Wink
 
 


Edited by Anton - 02-Feb-2007 at 13:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 14:39

Ioannes Zonaras

A well-known Byzantine chronicler, Ioannes Zonaras lived in the first half of the twelfth century. In his writings he recorded in detail the wars fought by the Bulgarian Tsar Samuil and the Byzantine Emperor Basilius II. The excerpt here recounts the infamous episode involving the blinding of Samnil's soldiers and the subsequent occupation of the country. The truth of the account is at-tested by Scylitzes, another contemporary Byzantine chronicler, and explains Basilius' nickname Bulgaroktonos, which means "Slayer of the Bulgars." The onginal is in Greek and comes from Zonaras's Epitomae Historiarum (1897).


JOANNES ZONARAS RECOUNTS HOW BASILIUS 11 BLINDED THE BULGARIAN SOLDIERS OF SAMUIL AND CONQUERED THE WHOLE OF BULGARIA

The Emperor frequently attacked Bulgaria, caused damages and devastated it. Samuil, unable to oppose the Byzantine army, tried to block the roads for him by ditches, while barring the gorges with for-tifications and putting guards in them. And so the emperor came again and tried to enter by force but was repulsed by the guards who put up a valiant resistance. He did not give up his attempt, however, and remained there so as to take the fortification, sending one of the commanders with his subordinated detachment in another direction to see if he could make a detour and find some way for invasion. And he, passing across many mountains and steep slopes, attacked the guard of the fortification in the rear unnoticed by the Bulgarians, who, taken by surprise, did not care any longer for the defense of the fortification but thought only how to save themselves from ruin. Then the Byzantine army without fear broke the palisades, passed through and started a pursuit. Many were slain and many more were captured, and Samuil had a narrow escape. The Emperor gouged out the eyes of all prisoners, numbering about 15,000 men, save for one in every hundred to guide them and ordered them to go to their leader. On seeing them and unable to stand the pain, he lost con-sciousness and fell insensible to the ground. After recovering slightly, he was taken ill with heart trouble and died. The supreme power over the Bulgarians now passed on to his son Gavril Romanus, who, without having ruled even one year, was murdered by his uncle Aaron's son Ivan Vladislav, who also had two names. And so the Em-peror, having crossed, as I said, the fortification in the gorges, cap-tured many other fortified localities together with the Bulgarians in them and went to Mosynopole, where he was informed of Samuil's death. He then immediately moved on, attacked Bulgaria and cap-tured towns and fortresses. Samnil's son Gavril Romanus, who was not killed yet, sent envoys to the Emperor and promised to obey him. But after a certain time a servant of Ivan Vladislav's, the murderer of Gavril, arrived and announced the murder of Samuil's son and carried a letter promising submission to the Emperor. He was also joined by many prominent Bulgarians. Understanding that Vladislav had no intention of fulfilling his promise, the Emperor again set out against Bulgaria, ravaged much of her land, by siege took the town of Okhrid where the palaces of the Bulgarian Tsars stood, and through his military commanders seized other fortresses by siege, and then re-turned to Constantinople.

http://turtei.lozev.com/plamen/bg_cd/webbul/zonaras.htm
 
 
So, who attacked whom, according to Zonaras?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:13
Does not prove the claim that he was evil
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:55
Originally posted by es_bih

Does not prove the claim that he was evil
 
It doesn't. By this post I didn't try to prove that he was evil, I just posted chronicle  for those who are interested.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 09:41
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Athanasios

Do you have any sources to proove that?
 
Surely he has: Theophanes Chronographia.
 
 
So, returning to main question, basically, Basil comparing to Nicephorus was not evil at al. Wink
 
 
 
Krum should had his dogs fitted more often i suppose. Anyway it was the greatest byzantine loss...and it was not even a battle.
 
Well if you believe that Basil was evil , its ok. Everybody has the right to  have his personal opinion.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 06:57
Originally posted by Athanasios

Krum should had his dogs fitted more often i suppose. Anyway it was the greatest byzantine loss...and it was not even a battle.
Why's that? Is it because Krum was nonchristian, ignorrant barbar whereas Nicephorus was noble Hellin? LOL Be more critical to your own history, dear fellow. BTW, in this particular story Krum offered peace to Nicephorus several times,"saying I won, take everything you want and go away" untill he was pissed of Wink
 
 
Well if you believe that Basil was evil , its ok. Everybody has the right to  have his personal opinion.
Yes, I do believe that he was unwarrantably brutal but outstanding ruler in the same time.  


Edited by Anton - 04-Feb-2007 at 07:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 12:08
 
[/QUOTE]
Why's that? Is it because Krum was nonchristian(1), ignorrant barbar whereas Nicephorus was noble Hellin(2)? LOL Be more critical to your own history, dear fellow(3). BTW, in this particular story Krum offered peace to Nicephorus several times,"saying I won, take everything you want and go away" untill he was pissed of(4) Wink
 
1. He was an ignorrant barbar and personally i don't care if he was Christian or not.
 
2.Nicephorus was a Roman Emperor, not a Hellen noble. I'm a Hellenas by the geographic and political term.
 
3. It is your's history too...
 
4....so he made an ambush and attacked at night, the cannibalistic continue is also knownDead
 
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do believe that he was unwarrantably brutal but outstanding ruler in the same time.  
 
The world history judged him. I think this conversation came to an end...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:43
Originally posted by Athanasios

1. He was an ignorrant barbar and personally i don't care if he was Christian or not.
 
So, he was ignorrant barbar (whether Christian or not) but person who created one of the first version of Bulgarian lows, a person who signifficantly helped Byzantines in Second Siege of Constantinople, the person who offered 3 times a peace to Nicephorus and a person who succefully fought in several fronts including Byzantine Empire and Frank Empire. But still he is more likely to "fit his dogs more frequently" then a man who killed women and children by a specially perverted ways (according to the same Greek chronicles--f.e. Teophanes) -- like putting them (little kids) in a row and ordering heavy rolls for purifying the corn (sorry I don't know the English word for that) (according to Michael from Syria) etc. etc. etc. And all that just because one was ignorrant barbar and another was educated Roman??? I find something rotten in this logic.
And then you apply the same logic to a person who (although was a brilliant ruller indeed) blinded 15000 people instead of one but who was really deserved (in the eyes of Roman law, not mine Wink) it as a rebel.
 
3. It is your's history too...
 
Yes, it is mine too. And that is why I do not try to raise my nation and my history and explain everything bad in my history by brutality of the neighbours. People are all the same and education is the last thing that affects brutality and/or mercy. 
 
4....so he made an ambush and attacked at night, the cannibalistic continue is also knownDead
 
Didn't hear about "cannibalistic continue". Skull of Nicephorus didn't look like "Dead".  
 
Still, don't understand how can you even compare cup made of the skull and good military tactics ("ambush") with killing of kids and women. Krum's warriors probably did the same but Nicephorus forces did something outstanding since even Byzantine chronicles mention this. Who is ignorrant barbar after that, Athanasios?
 
The world history judged him. I think this conversation came to an end...
 
Yes, world history judged him indeed. Immediately Bulgarian rebelions started and finally succeded. And this example of blinding armies gave excellent example to the great Bulgarian ruller, also very brutal, whom Byzantines called Skylloioannes. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 19:16
 
[/QUOTE]
 
So, he was ignorrant barbar (whether Christian or not) but person who created one of the first version of Bulgarian lows(1), a person who signifficantly helped Byzantines in Second Siege of Constantinople(2), the person who offered 3 times a peace to Nicephorus and a person who succefully fought in several fronts including Byzantine Empire and Frank Empire(3). But still he is more likely to "fit his dogs more frequently" then a man who killed women and children by a specially perverted ways (according to the same Greek chronicles--f.e. Teophanes) -- like putting them (little kids) in a row and ordering heavy rolls for purifying the corn (sorry I don't know the English word for that) (according to Michael from Syria) (4) etc. etc. etc. And all that just because one was ignorrant barbar and another was educated Roman??? I find something rotten in this logic.(5)
And then you apply the same logic to a person who (although was a brilliant ruller indeed) blinded 15000 people instead of one but who was really deserved (in the eyes of Roman law, not mine Wink) it as a rebel.(6)
 
3. It is your's history too...
 
Yes, it is mine too. And that is why I do not try to raise my nation and my history and explain everything bad in my history by brutality of the neighbours.(7) People are all the same and education is the last thing that affects brutality and/or mercy. (8)
 
4....so he made an ambush and attacked at night, the cannibalistic continue is also knownDead
 
Didn't hear about "cannibalistic continue". Skull of Nicephorus didn't look like "Dead". (9) 
 
Still, don't understand how can you even compare cup made of the skull and good military tactics ("ambush") (10)with killing of kids and women. Krum's warriors probably did the same but Nicephorus forces did something outstanding since even Byzantine chronicles mention this. Who is ignorrant barbar after that, Athanasios?
 
The world history judged him. I think this conversation came to an end...
 
Yes, world history judged him indeed. Immediately Bulgarian rebelions started and finally succeded(11). And this example of blinding armies gave excellent example to the great Bulgarian ruller, also very brutal, whom Byzantines called Skylloioannes(12). 
[/QUOTE]
 
 
 
1. Which is the importance of these lows? in wich language were these lows written? I don't think he wrote them by himself(if he knew how to write) neither that they could be compared to those of Byzantium which were the continuation of Corpus Civilus...
 
2.Did he? I thought he was born much later than the second siege of Constantinopole from the Arabs(717), wich was a pitty one.Finally they starved and died...Bulgarians helped by attacking their camp. They were hired to do it.Didn't they?
 
3.Not to mention the war between Byzantium and Abbasid empire ,wich was the eastern front and stronger by both Bulgarian and Frankish empire in this period. Actually Bulgaria was a minor threat but it was close to Constantinopole.
 
4.Michael from Syria is not Encyclopedia Britannica...sources please.
 
5.According to you, Krum was a noble...You didn't mention the huge population whose enslaved from Byzantine territory and put it in Pannonia. Basil's grandfathers (the first emperor of the Macedonian dynasty) were also between the enslaved Byzantines.
 
6.Did I? I think you have the habbit to accuse the Byzantine Emperors of war crimes (in the medieval era LOL). Nikephorus A wasn't that significant indeed, i can't compare him with Basil II.
Neither Osama bin Laden is a terrorist in the eyes of Talliban but in the eyes of the world community he is a naughty naughty boy as Samuil used to beWink...
 
7.Do i seem to have neighbours as the Belgium, Finland, Holland Luxemburg and Swisserland? I don't think so...
 
8.I think that the main reason of the education (or educational system if you prefer) is to bring up the human to a superior level, to exempt him from the animal insticts. I have to dissagree with you upon this.
 
9.Well, actually only Krum and his Boyars knew how the skull of Nikephorus looked like...thirsty anyone?LOL
 
 
10.Ambush is the most effective tactic of the weak and coward , when it is prefered as the only between many other tactics.Well , those women and children are mentioned as Christians in the source that you gave me (in the Roman translation)but i have to agree, it was a cruel act similar to those wich nazis and their pitty allies were used to do....
 
 
11.Are you refering to Assen bros.? I think that all started from their dissapointment about Isaak Angelus( this is an idiot and cruel emperor indeed) behaviour upon something...I don't remember now , but i think they requested to have a pronia and Isaak refused with an ugly way...
Well as far as i know your rebelions before Assen bros. were fiaskos.
 
12.Actually Skyloioannis did a crime over a carcass.nothing more , nothing less...
 
History is not the Hague's international court of justise and you can not bring Basil II to life and judge him for doing his duty,centuries ago, with the modern criteria.
 Remember "Colonel kurtz's" words:
[Kurtz describes atrocities committed by the Viet-Cong, he "...realized they were stronger than we," because they were "trained cadres" who "...had the strength" to commit atrocities.
Kurtz argued that armies need "...men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it is judgment that defeats us."]
thats happened then , that was happening in Vietnam that will be happening each time there is a war! the war...the war is cruel by his nature.
 
movies describe real life...Wink
 
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 19:40
Did I mix Tervel with Krum? Shame Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 20:02
 
 
"if he knew how to write"
 
"They were hired to do it.Didn't they?"
 
"Michael from Syria is not Encyclopedia Britannica"
 
"7.Do i seem to have neighbours as the Belgium, Finland, Holland Luxemburg and Swisserland? I don't think so..."
 
"Ambush is the most effective tactic of the weak and coward , "
 
"9.Well, actually only Krum and his Boyars knew how the skull of Nikephorus looked like...thirsty anyone?LOL"
 
"12.Actually Skyloioannis did a crime over a carcass.nothing more , nothing less..."
 
"Well as far as i know your rebelions before Assen bros. were fiaskos."
 
It seems you don't have enough respect to your "barbarian" neighbours. Go to learn their history and come back prepared. Especially your statement number seven is masterpiece. Thank you for it.
 
Are you sure you like history, Athanasios?
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