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AEDip04: Versailles Diplomacy

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AEDip04: Versailles Diplomacy
    Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 13:29
It's my pleasure to officially announce the start of the new All Empires Diplomacy game, this time in the Europe of the 1930s.

Previous recruitment, discussion and country assignements has been done in the context of THIS TOPIC.


Starting map (Winter 1928)

The major powers will be played by the following people:
  • Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (General Secretary Josif Brod Stalin): TheDiplomat
  • United Kingdom of Great Britain (PM Stanley Baldwin*): Bishop
  • French Republic (President Gaston Doumerge): TheGeneral
  • Federal Republic of Germany (President Paul von Hindenburg): Kapikulu
  • Kingdom of Italy (PM Benito Mussolini): Magua
  • Republic of Poland (Strongman Jzef Pilsudski***): Rider
  • Republic of Turkey (President Mustafa Kemal Ataturk): Hugoestr
Historical notes:
* Baldwin was replaced in June 1929 by Ramsay McDonald.
** Though a parlamentary republic, France passed these years by a rapid succession of Prime Ministers, so I found easier to name the more stable figure of the President.
*** Pilsudski held various offices, including that of Prime Minister occasionally, nevertheless he was always the strong man behind.


The rules applied to this variant are the same as in standard Diplomacy (read them HERE) with one exception: there are 7 minor powers (Spain, Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Greece and Egypt) each one owning one army or fleet. These minor powers will be controlled according to the following rule:

Special rule for the management of armed minor powers in variants that provide for them:


Each major power (player) has as many Influence Points (IPs) as centers it owns. Every Winter the player can allocate them for any available minor power(s) at will. 

Each winter then the GM will count the IPs allocated at each minor power ruling its allaince for the upcoming year to the power that more "votes" has achieved in that particular "poll" or "influence struggle". Players are not obligued to "vote" for themselves (default) but can also explictly allocate their IPs for other major powers.

IP allocation will remain secret in any case. 

The major power obtaining single majority in each individual votation, gets the alliance (total cotrol) of the minor power for the full following year. A tie on top votes causes the minor power to stay neutral for the subsequent year.

Examples (using Versailles variant) in Winter 1928 (prior to the game start):

(1) Czechoslovakia:

  • Germany 3 IPs
  • Poland 2 IPs
  • Italy 1 IP

Germany obtains alliance (control) of Czechoslovakia for all 1929 (3 vs 2)

(2) Spain:

  • France: 3 IPs
  • Britain: 2 IPs
  • Italy : 1 IP for Britain

Spain stays neutral in 1929 (3 vs 3)

(3) Greece:

  • Italy: 1 IP

Italy attains the Greece alliance for 1929

(4) Yugoslavia:

  • Turkey: 2 IPs
  •  USSR: 1 IP

Turkey obtains Yugoslav alliance in 1929 (2 vs 1)

(5) Rumania:

  • Poland: 2 IPs
  •  USSR: 1 IP 

Poland obtains Rumanian alliance for 1929 (2 vs 1)

(6) Sweden:

  • USSR: 2 IPs
  • Britain 1 IP
  •  Poland: 1 IP for Britain

Sweden stays neutral in 1929 (2 vs 2)

(7) Egypt: 

  • Turkey: 1 IP 

Turkey obtains Egyptian alliance for 1929

Yet (IMPORTANT!), the votation or IP allocation remains secret. Only the results are published by the GM along the Winter adjustments' adjudication.


Continuity vote: minor powers will cast a special vote for their previous allies. This rule is intended to encourage alliance continuity and minimize the posibilities that a minor power reverses to neutrality. 

Examples (Winter 1929): 

Greece: 

  • Turkey: 1 IP
  • Italy: 1 IP
  •  Greece (continuity vote): IP for Italy

Italy retains control over Greece in 1930 (1 vs 1)

Egypt: no IPs invested by any major powers

  • Egypt (continuity vote): IP for Turkey

Turkey retains control over Egypt

Rumania:

  • Poland: 3 IPs
  • USSR: 4 IPs
  • Rumania (continuity vote): IP for Poland>

USSR takes control of Rumania (4 vs 3)


Betrayal penalty
(loss of credibility): 

A power can of course occupy its minor ally's owned centers, yet this will cause the following penalty: the traitor major power loses all IPs in the subsequent Winter and will recover only half of them (rounded down) in the second year after the wrongdoing. The third year after the stab, the traitor power will have again all its IPs, unless it has comitted new acts of treason towards its minor allies.

The continuity vote rule is not affected by this provision. Minor powers will remain casting their IP for their former allies equally.


Provisions for minor powers reverting to neutrality

The unit(s) of such minor power will act as follows:

  • If it is at their home SC, it will hold
  • If it is adjacent to their home SC, it will move to it
  • If it is two provinces away from their home SC, it will also move to it via the shortest possible path, deciding the GM on random bases if two or more paths are equally available.
  • If it is more than 2 provinces away, it will hold

If a neutralized minor power owns more than one SC, the unit most distant from its home center will move towards the other owned SC following the same provisions as above. If both units are equally distant, the GM will decide on random bases. 

Example: Yugoslavia controls Belgrade (home) and Athens and has its two armies in Macedonia and Albania. One army will move to Blegrade and the other to Athens on random choice (flipping a coin, for instance).


When a minor powers can become major (played) and when an abandoned major power can turn minor:


Any minor power that achieves 3 SCs becomes a major power and will be assigned to a new player. The new player will then name a second home center for his new power. 

An abandoned major power with 2 or less SCs can become minor on GM's decission applying then the previous rules.

Also, complemenarily to the previous rules, here are my own house rules:

House rules
:
  1. In case of doubt the GM will have the last word, always applying the rulebook and any special rules (as for above).
  2. If a player fails to send orders (NMR/NBR), he will be notified by the GM and must reply declaring if he wishes to follow with the game. Two succesive NMRs in regular or adjustments turns (retreats won't apply) will cause the player to be deposed and replaced - no excuses. If the NMRing player doesn't reply to the GM's mail, he will be deposed and replaced without any second opportunity.
  3. Regular turns (Spring and Fall) will be scheduled with terms of about 5 days. Weekends can stretch these terms a little.
  4. Retreats' turns will have a maximum term of 48 hrs. Only for these, the GM will adjudicate earlier if all orders are in. If they fall fully in weekend, the term can be stretched a little bit too. This is up to the players' needs largely.
  5. For this variant, Winter turns will have an intermediate length of about 3-4 days, as the control of minor powers can be an important matter of discussion.
  6. Deadline extensions will be conceded upon request but I ask the players not to abuse of them. Conditional adjustments/retreats can be sent as alternative for short sub-turns extensions and I encourage them.
  7. I also encourage to send preliminary orders as soon as you recieve the adjudication. You can send as many different sets of orders as you need. The last one arriving will erase the previous. Please send always full sets of orders: it doesn't matter what you sent in previous ones.
  8. Orders will be interpretated benevolently but any order that is confuse enough will be declared invalid. Still I will notify the players if there is time for that, so this should not be a problem for novices.
  9. Press: I will accept white press (signed) and grey press (anonymous). I won't accept black press (on other's name). The press should be written with the orders' set and will be published with the adjudication. The GM will try to write some press too and "the gallery" (observers) can also write press (white only). Alternatively you can post in the All Empires - General Gaming topic open for this game's purpose (this one).
  10. I may add new rules in the future if necessary, always after consulting the players.
The first deadline, for Winter 1928, affecting only the Influence Action ("vote" for control of the minor powers), will be on Friday 30th of 2005, at 20:00 GMT. Spring deadline will be probably scheduled for Wednesday 4th of 2006, unless we face some sort of delays.

As always, I encourage all you to send preliminary orders as soon as possible. You can always change them later on.

Have fun!

PS: Map with province abbreviations:



Edited by Maju

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 17:29
So, for example, if Yugoslavian army invades Hungary next turn, the control of Hungary will be obtained by whomever gets the alliance of Yugoslavian minor nation,right?
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 20:29
Hungary will become a Yugoslav center enabling Yugoslavia to build a second unit in Belgrade. This build will be ordered by the player who holds Yugoslavia's alliance in 1929 but, if Yugoslavia changes alliances that same Winter, then another player will have control of both units.

The case is that Yugoslavia (in this example) is played as a separate power but not by diferent players but by one of the players ruling a major power. (Notice that if Yugoslavia achieves the control of a third center, then it becomes a new major power).

I believe that players are mostly interested in using minor allies to support their own units or to block rival ones but there is room for creativity and in some circumstances a player can consider interesting to make his "puppet" grow.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 01:43

MAybe we could make it even more harder and you, Maju would not tell anyone except the players who got which minor powrer. That would make wars much easier for you would only be worried by your invasion army. In some ways this might be logical but if players want to tell who they got then they can tell it. Otherwise it is a secret.

Now, is the Polish Jzef Pilsudski a Marshal?. Must check wikipedia.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 01:47
THEDIPLOMAT, YOUR INBOX IS TOTALLY FULL FOR THE SECOND WEEK. CLEAN IT!!!!
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 07:22
Originally posted by rider

MAybe we could make it even more harder and you, Maju would not tell anyone except the players who got which minor powrer. That would make wars much easier for you would only be worried by your invasion army. In some ways this might be logical but if players want to tell who they got then they can tell it. Otherwise it is a secret.


I was thinking in the same (this would allow for obstructionist maneouvres without open implication of the leading power). But I would like everybody to agree with it before implementing it.


Now, is the Polish Jzef Pilsudski a Marshal?. Must check wikipedia.



A General, I think. He was President in an earlier period, PM till 1928 and also in 1930 but often he occupied other ministries, such as that of Defense.

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 09:58
But I am more handsome than Stalin
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 18:29

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

But I am more handsome than Stalin

I'd rather be Stalin.  Look who I am.....

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 19:16

Thegeneral you shall thank God that you are not Aristide Briand,who had been France's PM for a few times

Wait!!!Look, Mr.Briand is coming...A disaster of nature, or shall I say wonder , what an image, what a charisma

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 02:51
Yes, more like a wondeR!
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  Quote Kilikya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 06:11

 

Maju

ThedPLOMAT told me about this game and read through some of the material.  Sounds interesting, much more complex and subtle than ours.

I wanted to throw out one thought;

don't you think that making the competition for minor powers Cumulative rather than re-computed every turn from zero more realistic?  In other words, the IP's given each turn would be added to the score already recieved in previous turns.  This would reward constancy, fidelity as well as longterm strategy.

In this sense, using IP's would be a long term investment, reflecting the economic, diplomatic, military, or technological assistance given over time.

 

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 07:00
Originally posted by Maju


When a minor powers can become major (played) and when an abandoned major power can turn minor:


Any minor power that achieves 3 SCs becomes a major power and will be assigned to a new player. The new player will then name a second home center for his new power. 

An abandoned major power with 2 or less SCs can become minor on GM's decission applying then the previous rules.

Can already I register to play a minor power in case one will turn major in the future?
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 08:30

So, Maju, if a great power passes through a country, does that also give the same result like invading a minor power?

What I mean is, for example Polish army in Krakow passing through Slovakia,which is not a SC.

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 09:42

We can do a formula like this for my latest question:

If a country gets alliance of a minor power, that means that he gets the right of passage. Isn't that a good solution?Otherwise, such a move would mean a decline in diplomatic power.

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:19
Originally posted by Kilikya

 

Maju

ThedPLOMAT told me about this game and read through some of the material.  Sounds interesting, much more complex and subtle than ours.

I wanted to throw out one thought;

don't you think that making the competition for minor powers Cumulative rather than re-computed every turn from zero more realistic?  In other words, the IP's given each turn would be added to the score already recieved in previous turns.  This would reward constancy, fidelity as well as longterm strategy.

In this sense, using IP's would be a long term investment, reflecting the economic, diplomatic, military, or technological assistance given over time.



Sounds interesting. In any case it would have to be pondered somehow: I mean it's not the same the influence you exerted 5 years ago than the one that you exert right now. So far, I've solved it partially with the continuity vote: all allied minors cast 1/2 vote for their former ally.

It's an experimental rule anyhow, so, depending how it works in this game, I may modify it for future games. Also, if there's consensus, we can modify the rule in the middle of the game too.

So far the only simmilar rules that I know of are: that of Mandate of Heaven, which allows for players to vote the movement of neutral armies/fleets, and that of Ambition & Empire, that works the same way but neutral units can't move, just support or hold. The issue of allied minor powers only happen in Versailles, but the alliances are fixed (though secret).

It's been suggested above that alliances should be secret also with this rule but I'm not sure this is realistic: normally alliances are public, specially the relations of dependence of minor powers towards major ones. What is secret is the diplomatic effort that precedes alliance.

Btw, do you want to be added to the mailing list as observer? You would be also candidate for replacement or to take over a minor power that becomes major (by gaining its 3rd center).

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:51
Originally posted by Kapikulu

So, Maju, if a great power passes through a country, does that also give the same result like invading a minor power?

What I mean is, for example Polish army in Krakow passing through Slovakia,which is not a SC.



No. Only centers are taken in account. But it doesn't matter if they are their home centers or any other center they may have conquered. Militarly undermining the power of your ally is what counts as invasion.

Also, if you occupy your ally's center in Spring and move out in the Fall, that's not treason. But make sure you move out in the Fall unless you want to be penalized.

Finally, to become a "traitor" (and be penalized) you must invade a minor power that is your ally. You can invade any other minor power at will without any penalty. This is intended to prevent that, for instance, Germany takes control of Czechoslovakia and orders it to move away only to occupy Prague. If you would do that, then you would be penalized, even if Czechoslovakia conquers Hungary "as compensation".

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:53
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Maju


When a minor powers can become major (played) and when an abandoned major power can turn minor:


Any minor power that achieves 3 SCs becomes a major power and will be assigned to a new player. The new player will then name a second home center for his new power. 

An abandoned major power with 2 or less SCs can become minor on GM's decission applying then the previous rules.

Can already I register to play a minor power in case one will turn major in the future?


Yes, I will add you to the observers' list. Also in the event that a player drops out you would be considered first to replace him.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:57
Originally posted by Kapikulu

We can do a formula like this for my latest question:

If a country gets alliance of a minor power, that means that he gets the right of passage. Isn't that a good solution?Otherwise, such a move would mean a decline in diplomatic power.



Well, that could be another idea. But I chose this format to make things easier for people playing or adjudicating with RP. Anyhow, changing the basic mechanics of the game was something I wanted to avoid. I also want to allow the possibilty of "treason"... with a due cost. Stabbing the last minor power around may be an option, anyhow.

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  Quote Bishop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 15:38
Originally posted by Kilikya

don't you think that making the competition for minor powers Cumulative rather than re-computed every turn from zero more realistic?  In other words, the IP's given each turn would be added to the score already recieved in previous turns.  This would reward constancy, fidelity as well as longterm strategy.

In this sense, using IP's would be a long term investment, reflecting the economic, diplomatic, military, or technological assistance given over time.

 


Brilliant!

I really like this idea, this makes a lot of sense!

I vote for this as an option.

Good work Kilikya!

This is a very interesting rule. First it muddies the water, so it wont be obvious how many votes are needed to take control of a minor. Because no one has any idea what kinda influence it's going to take to sway one. I like it...



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 18:04
But it requires more work from the GM. And the event of a major computer crash most likely all that info would be lost.

Also as I said before if I invest in Rumania in 1928, what kind of effect will it have in 1936? Obviously it is not the same that investing in 1935. At most the value of the old investments would be depreciated by half each year, which is even more work for the GM, because it involves complex maths (fractions! ) and serious accountance.

Also if you have 3 IPs and invest them all in Rumania but your enemy has 5 and invests 4 in Rumania, you're done anyhow. The current system provides for most of the fun with the greatest simplicity possible.

The idea is not bad (I have a simmilar idea myself some time ago) but for the sake of simplicity, I think it doesn't add so much to the game. Also if you are losing, no matter how much was your influence in the past, it is likely that minors will defect from your side, and that's also reflected in this system: IPs aren't accumulative but they reflect your actual power - they give a little extra advantage to big guys.

Finally the question is not only how much you invest. But how well you invest. For that you require to find out how will the other players act and where can you have the best expectations from the smaller investing. For instance, if you find out that everyone is going to invest in "super-strategic" Rumania, you may choose to invest in Yugoslavia and Greece isntead, so, if succesful, you get two allies whith little effort.

By the way. I have very few orders so far. Let's everybody start sending prelims now!

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