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Maju
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Topic: AEDip04: Versailles Diplomacy Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 13:29 |
It's my pleasure to officially announce the start of the new All Empires Diplomacy game, this time in the Europe of the 1930s.
Previous recruitment, discussion and country assignements has been done in the context of THIS TOPIC.
Starting map (Winter 1928)
The major powers will be played by the following people:
- Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (General Secretary Josif Brod Stalin): TheDiplomat
- United Kingdom of Great Britain (PM Stanley Baldwin*): Bishop
- French Republic (President Gaston Doumerge): TheGeneral
- Federal Republic of Germany (President Paul von Hindenburg): Kapikulu
- Kingdom of Italy (PM Benito Mussolini): Magua
- Republic of Poland (Strongman Jzef Pilsudski***): Rider
- Republic of Turkey (President Mustafa Kemal Ataturk): Hugoestr
Historical notes:
* Baldwin was replaced in June 1929 by Ramsay McDonald.
** Though a parlamentary republic, France passed these years by a rapid
succession of Prime Ministers, so I found easier to name the more
stable figure of the President.
*** Pilsudski held various offices, including that of Prime Minister
occasionally, nevertheless he was always the strong man behind.
The rules applied to this variant are the same as in standard Diplomacy (read them HERE)
with one exception: there are 7 minor powers (Spain, Sweden,
Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Greece and Egypt) each one owning
one army or fleet. These minor powers will be controlled according to
the following rule:
Special
rule for the management of armed minor powers in variants that provide for them:
Each major
power (player) has as many Influence Points (IPs) as centers it owns. Every
Winter the player can allocate them for any available minor power(s) at will.
Each winter
then the GM will count the IPs allocated at each minor power ruling its
allaince for the upcoming year to the power that more "votes" has
achieved in that particular "poll" or "influence struggle".
Players are not obligued to "vote" for themselves (default) but can
also explictly allocate their IPs for other major powers.
IP
allocation will remain secret in any case.
The major
power obtaining single majority in each individual votation, gets the alliance
(total cotrol) of the minor power for the full following year. A tie on top
votes causes the minor power to stay neutral for the subsequent year.
Examples (using Versailles variant) in
Winter 1928 (prior to the game start):
(1)
Czechoslovakia:
- Germany
3 IPs
- Poland
2 IPs
- Italy
1 IP
Germany
obtains alliance (control) of Czechoslovakia for all 1929 (3 vs 2)
(2) Spain:
- France:
3 IPs
- Britain:
2 IPs
- Italy
: 1 IP for Britain
Spain stays
neutral in 1929 (3 vs 3)
(3) Greece:
Italy
attains the Greece alliance for 1929
(4)
Yugoslavia:
Turkey
obtains Yugoslav alliance in 1929 (2 vs 1)
(5)
Rumania:
Poland
obtains Rumanian alliance for 1929 (2 vs 1)
(6) Sweden:
-
USSR:
2 IPs
- Britain
1 IP
- Poland:
1 IP for Britain
Sweden
stays neutral in 1929 (2 vs 2)
(7) Egypt:
Turkey
obtains Egyptian alliance for 1929
Yet
(IMPORTANT!), the votation or IP allocation remains secret. Only the results
are published by the GM along the Winter adjustments' adjudication.
Continuity
vote: minor powers
will cast a special vote for their previous allies. This rule is intended to
encourage alliance continuity and minimize the posibilities that a minor power
reverses to neutrality.
Examples (Winter 1929):
Greece:
- Turkey:
1 IP
- Italy:
1 IP
- Greece
(continuity vote): IP for Italy
Italy
retains control over Greece in 1930 (1 vs 1)
Egypt: no
IPs invested by any major powers
- Egypt
(continuity vote): IP for Turkey
Turkey
retains control over Egypt
Rumania:
- Poland:
3 IPs
- USSR:
4 IPs
- Rumania
(continuity vote): IP for Poland>
USSR takes
control of Rumania (4 vs 3)
Betrayal
penalty (loss of
credibility):
A power can
of course occupy its minor ally's owned centers, yet this will cause the
following penalty: the traitor major power loses all IPs in the subsequent
Winter and will recover only half of them (rounded down) in the second year
after the wrongdoing. The third year after the stab, the traitor power will
have again all its IPs, unless it has comitted new acts of treason towards its
minor allies.
The
continuity vote rule is not affected by this provision. Minor powers will
remain casting their IP for their former allies equally.
Provisions
for minor powers reverting to neutrality:
The unit(s)
of such minor power will act as follows:
- If
it is at their home SC, it will hold
- If
it is adjacent to their home SC, it will move to it
- If
it is two provinces away from their home SC, it will also move to it via
the shortest possible path, deciding the GM on random bases if two or more
paths are equally available.
- If it is more than 2 provinces away, it will hold
If a
neutralized minor power owns more than one SC, the unit most distant from its
home center will move towards the other owned SC following the same provisions
as above. If both units are equally distant, the GM will decide on random
bases.
Example: Yugoslavia controls Belgrade
(home) and Athens and has its two armies in Macedonia and Albania. One army
will move to Blegrade and the other to Athens on random choice (flipping a
coin, for instance).
When a
minor powers can become major (played) and when an abandoned major power can
turn minor:
Any minor
power that achieves 3 SCs becomes a major power and will be assigned to a new
player. The new player will then name a second home center for his new power.
An abandoned
major power with 2 or less SCs can become minor on GM's decission applying then
the previous rules.
Also, complemenarily to the previous rules, here are my own house rules:
House rules:
- In case of doubt the GM will have the last word, always
applying the rulebook and any special rules (as for above).
- If a player fails to send orders (NMR/NBR), he will be
notified by the GM and must reply declaring if he wishes to follow with
the game. Two succesive NMRs in regular or adjustments turns (retreats
won't apply) will cause the player to be deposed and replaced - no
excuses. If the NMRing player doesn't reply to the GM's mail, he will
be deposed and replaced without any second opportunity.
- Regular turns (Spring and Fall) will be scheduled with
terms of about 5 days.
Weekends can stretch these terms a little.
- Retreats' turns will have a maximum term
of 48 hrs. Only for these, the GM will adjudicate earlier if all orders
are in. If they fall fully in weekend, the term can be stretched a
little bit too. This is up to the players' needs largely.
- For this variant, Winter turns will have
an intermediate length of about 3-4 days, as the control of minor
powers can be an important matter of discussion.
- Deadline extensions will be conceded upon request but I
ask the players not to abuse of them. Conditional adjustments/retreats
can be sent as alternative for short sub-turns extensions and I
encourage them.
- I also encourage to send preliminary orders as soon as you
recieve the adjudication. You can send as many different sets of orders
as you need. The last one arriving will erase the previous. Please send
always full sets of orders: it doesn't matter what you sent in previous
ones.
- Orders will be interpretated benevolently but any order
that is confuse enough will be declared invalid. Still I will notify
the players if there is time for that, so this should not be a problem
for novices.
- Press: I will accept white press (signed) and grey press
(anonymous). I won't accept black press (on other's name). The press
should be written with the orders' set and will be published with the
adjudication. The GM will try to write some press too and "the gallery"
(observers) can also write press (white only). Alternatively you can
post in the All Empires - General Gaming topic open for this game's
purpose (this one).
- I may add new rules in the future if necessary, always
after consulting the players.
The first deadline, for Winter 1928, affecting only the Influence
Action ("vote" for control of the minor powers), will be on Friday 30th
of 2005, at 20:00 GMT. Spring deadline will be probably scheduled for
Wednesday 4th of 2006, unless we face some sort of delays.
As always, I encourage all you to send preliminary orders as soon as possible. You can always change them later on.
Have fun!
PS: Map with province abbreviations:
Edited by Maju
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 17:29 |
So, for example, if Yugoslavian army invades Hungary next turn, the control of Hungary will be obtained by whomever gets the alliance of Yugoslavian minor nation,right?
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Maju
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Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 20:29 |
Hungary will become a Yugoslav center enabling Yugoslavia to build a
second unit in Belgrade. This build will be ordered by the player who
holds Yugoslavia's alliance in 1929 but, if Yugoslavia changes
alliances that same Winter, then another player will have control of
both units.
The case is that Yugoslavia (in this example) is played as a separate
power but not by diferent players but by one of the players ruling a
major power. (Notice that if Yugoslavia achieves the control of a third
center, then it becomes a new major power).
I believe that players are mostly interested in using minor allies to
support their own units or to block rival ones but there is room for
creativity and in some circumstances a player can consider interesting
to make his "puppet" grow.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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rider
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 01:43 |
MAybe we could make it even more harder and you, Maju would not tell anyone except the players who got which minor powrer. That would make wars much easier for you would only be worried by your invasion army. In some ways this might be logical but if players want to tell who they got then they can tell it. Otherwise it is a secret.
Now, is the Polish Jzef Pilsudski a Marshal?. Must check wikipedia.
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rider
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 01:47 |
THEDIPLOMAT, YOUR INBOX IS TOTALLY FULL FOR THE SECOND WEEK. CLEAN IT!!!!
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 07:22 |
Originally posted by rider
MAybe we could make it even more harder and you, Maju
would not tell anyone except the players who got which minor powrer.
That would make wars much easier for you would only be worried by your
invasion army. In some ways this might be logical but if players want
to tell who they got then they can tell it. Otherwise it is a secret.
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I was thinking in the same (this would allow for obstructionist
maneouvres without open implication of the leading power). But I would
like everybody to agree with it before implementing it.
Now, is the Polish Jzef Pilsudski a Marshal?. Must check wikipedia. |
A General, I think. He was President in an earlier period, PM till 1928
and also in 1930 but often he occupied other ministries, such as that
of Defense.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 09:58 |
But I am more handsome than Stalin
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Thegeneral
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Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 18:29 |
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
But I am more handsome than Stalin |
I'd rather be Stalin. Look who I am.....
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 19:16 |
Thegeneral you shall thank God that you are not Aristide Briand,who had been France's PM for a few times
Wait!!!Look, Mr.Briand is coming...A disaster of nature, or shall I say wonder , what an image, what a charisma

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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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rider
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 02:51 |
Yes, more like a wondeR!
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Kilikya
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 06:11 |
Maju
ThedPLOMAT told me about this game and read through some of the material. Sounds interesting, much more complex and subtle than ours.
I wanted to throw out one thought;
don't you think that making the competition for minor powers Cumulative rather than re-computed every turn from zero more realistic? In other words, the IP's given each turn would be added to the score already recieved in previous turns. This would reward constancy, fidelity as well as longterm strategy.
In this sense, using IP's would be a long term investment, reflecting the economic, diplomatic, military, or technological assistance given over time.
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 07:00 |
Originally posted by Maju
When a
minor powers can become major (played) and when an abandoned major power can
turn minor:
Any minor
power that achieves 3 SCs becomes a major power and will be assigned to a new
player. The new player will then name a second home center for his new power.
An abandoned
major power with 2 or less SCs can become minor on GM's decission applying then
the previous rules. |
Can already I register to play a minor power in case one will turn major in the future?
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 08:30 |
So, Maju, if a great power passes through a country, does that also give the same result like invading a minor power?
What I mean is, for example Polish army in Krakow passing through Slovakia,which is not a SC.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Kapikulu
Arch Duke
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Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
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Posts: 1914
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 09:42 |
We can do a formula like this for my latest question:
If a country gets alliance of a minor power, that means that he gets the right of passage. Isn't that a good solution?Otherwise, such a move would mean a decline in diplomatic power.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Maju
King
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:19 |
Originally posted by Kilikya
Maju
ThedPLOMAT told me about this game and read through some of the
material. Sounds interesting, much more complex and subtle than
ours.
I wanted to throw out one thought;
don't you think that making the competition for minor powers
Cumulative rather than re-computed every turn from zero more
realistic? In other words, the IP's given each turn would be
added to the score already recieved in previous turns. This would
reward constancy, fidelity as well as longterm strategy.
In this sense, using IP's would be a long term investment,
reflecting the economic, diplomatic, military, or technological
assistance given over time.
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Sounds interesting. In any case it would have to be pondered somehow: I
mean it's not the same the influence you exerted 5 years ago than the
one that you exert right now. So far, I've solved it partially with the
continuity vote: all allied minors cast 1/2 vote for their former ally.
It's an experimental rule anyhow, so, depending how it works in this
game, I may modify it for future games. Also, if there's consensus, we
can modify the rule in the middle of the game too.
So far the only simmilar rules that I know of are: that of Mandate of
Heaven, which allows for players to vote the movement of neutral
armies/fleets, and that of Ambition & Empire, that works the same
way but neutral units can't move, just support or hold. The issue of
allied minor powers only happen in Versailles, but the alliances are
fixed (though secret).
It's been suggested above that alliances should be secret also with
this rule but I'm not sure this is realistic: normally alliances are
public, specially the relations of dependence of minor powers towards
major ones. What is secret is the diplomatic effort that precedes
alliance.
Btw, do you want to be added to the mailing list as observer? You would
be also candidate for replacement or to take over a minor power that
becomes major (by gaining its 3rd center).
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:51 |
Originally posted by Kapikulu
So, Maju, if a great power passes through a country, does that also give the same result like invading a minor power?
What I mean is, for example Polish army in Krakow passing through Slovakia,which is not a SC. |
No. Only centers are taken in account. But it doesn't matter if they
are their home centers or any other center they may have conquered.
Militarly undermining the power of your ally is what counts as
invasion.
Also, if you occupy your ally's center in Spring and move out in the
Fall, that's not treason. But make sure you move out in the Fall unless
you want to be penalized.
Finally, to become a "traitor" (and be penalized) you must invade a minor power that is your ally.
You can invade any other minor power at will without any penalty. This
is intended to prevent that, for instance, Germany takes control of
Czechoslovakia and orders it to move away only to occupy Prague. If you
would do that, then you would be penalized, even if Czechoslovakia
conquers Hungary "as compensation".
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:53 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by Maju
When a
minor powers can become major (played) and when an abandoned major power can
turn minor:
Any minor
power that achieves 3 SCs becomes a major power and will be assigned to a new
player. The new player will then name a second home center for his new power.
An abandoned
major power with 2 or less SCs can become minor on GM's decission applying then
the previous rules. |
Can already I register to play a minor power in case one will turn major in the future?
|
Yes, I will add you to the observers' list. Also in the event that a
player drops out you would be considered first to replace him.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:57 |
Originally posted by Kapikulu
We can do a formula like this for my latest question:
If a country gets alliance of a minor power, that means that he gets
the right of passage. Isn't that a good solution?Otherwise, such a move
would mean a decline in diplomatic power. |
Well, that could be another idea. But I chose this format to make
things easier for people playing or adjudicating with RP. Anyhow,
changing the basic mechanics of the game was something I wanted to
avoid. I also want to allow the possibilty of "treason"... with a due
cost. Stabbing the last minor power around may be an option, anyhow.
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Bishop
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 15:38 |
Originally posted by Kilikya
don't you think that making the competition for
minor powers Cumulative rather than re-computed every turn from zero
more realistic? In other words, the IP's given each turn would be
added to the score already recieved in previous turns. This would
reward constancy, fidelity as well as longterm strategy.
In this sense, using IP's would be a long term investment,
reflecting the economic, diplomatic, military, or technological
assistance given over time.
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Brilliant!
I really like this idea, this makes a lot of sense!
I vote for this as an option.
Good work Kilikya!
This is a very interesting rule. First it muddies the water, so it
wont be obvious how many votes are needed to take control of a minor.
Because no one has any idea what kinda influence it's going to take to
sway one. I like it...
Edited by Bishop
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 18:04 |
But it requires more work from the GM. And the event of a major computer crash most likely all that info would be lost.
Also as I said before if I invest in Rumania in 1928, what kind of
effect will it have in 1936? Obviously it is not the same that
investing in 1935. At most the value of the old investments would be
depreciated by half each year, which is even more work for the GM,
because it involves complex maths (fractions!  ) and serious accountance.
Also if you have 3 IPs and invest them all in Rumania but your enemy
has 5 and invests 4 in Rumania, you're done anyhow. The current system
provides for most of the fun with the greatest simplicity possible.
The idea is not bad (I have a simmilar idea myself some time ago) but
for the sake of simplicity, I think it doesn't add so much to the game.
Also if you are losing, no matter how much was your influence in the
past, it is likely that minors will defect from your side, and that's
also reflected in this system: IPs aren't accumulative but they reflect
your actual power - they give a little extra advantage to big guys.
Finally the question is not only how much you invest. But how well you
invest. For that you require to find out how will the other players act
and where can you have the best expectations from the smaller
investing. For instance, if you find out that everyone is going to
invest in "super-strategic" Rumania, you may choose to invest in
Yugoslavia and Greece isntead, so, if succesful, you get two allies
whith little effort.
By the way. I have very few orders so far. Let's everybody start sending prelims now!
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