Katarina Velika

 Katarina wasnt ''ideal'' queen, she is only remembered as being the last quuen.If she was born during time of Stjepan Kulinic 1204-1232, she would certainly not be remembered.For Katarina, she never cared for Bosniaks, in first place.Neither did her husband.Bosnia was a confederation of Bosnian nobles, that in Sabor elected or tried to elect their man as a king

In Bosnia you had Subici, who werent strong and came from  todays Croatia.They ruled for small period of time.Then you have Kulinic and Kotromanic dynasty, and later Tomasevici

This was all supervised by Bosnian Did, who was a church figurem, but had a significant affair and influence into Bosnian politics, all untill mid 15 th centiry.

Katarina from Kosaca-Hranic dynasty.Original name was Hranic, or Hranice, later turned into Kosaca.Founding father was a Sandalj Hranic Kosaca.He ruled from his court in Kljuc, not the one in Krajina, but Kljuc Gacko.His son, Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca, moved his capital to better suitable Blagaj, that was at that time, biggest part in Hum, i wont say Hercegovina.

Katarina Kosaca(Hranic) was a product of marriage between Stjepan Tomas.Remember Bosniak nobles often married even to woman who werent Bosniak.Matej Ninoslav had Polish bride

Originally posted by violentjack  Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas. Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws, and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of Innocent III In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae,  catholic Subics or Subics of Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off topic From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc, vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and his predecesors. Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money, trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted to Islam later, but thats another story. Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban, even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome. Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin

Weren't most Roman Catholics, rather than Bosnian Bogomils? If I recall quite a lot of them even prosecuted the Bosnian patarens ("heretics").

I've heard about this conversion of Orthodoxy by Matej Ninoslav, but I thought that was just a myth. Where did you get that info?

Originally posted by Yugoslav Originally posted by violentjack  Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas. Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws, and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of Innocent III In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae,  catholic Subics or Subics of Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off topic From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc, vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and his predecesors. Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money, trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted to Islam later, but thats another story. Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban, even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome. Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin Weren't most Roman Catholics, rather than Bosnian Bogomils? If I recall quite a lot of them even prosecuted the Bosnian patarens ("heretics"). I've heard about this conversion of Orthodoxy by Matej Ninoslav, but I thought that was just a myth. Where did you get that info?

Originally posted by es_bih Originally posted by Yugoslav Originally posted by violentjack  Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas. Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws, and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of Innocent III In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae,  catholic Subics or Subics of Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off topic From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc, vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and his predecesors. Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money, trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted to Islam later, but thats another story. Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban, even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome. Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin Weren't most Roman Catholics, rather than Bosnian Bogomils? If I recall quite a lot of them even prosecuted the Bosnian patarens ("heretics"). I've heard about this conversion of Orthodoxy by Matej Ninoslav, but I thought that was just a myth. Where did you get that info?   Recent studies show that the prevalence was of Bosnian Catholic, and Bosnian independent(breakaway Catholic) churches. With Ortodoxy in Hercegovina, and a few families in Bosnia proper. Many Bosnians were Roman Catholic, does not make them Croats though, it would in this day and age not back then when nationality depended on less rigid and discrimantory standards.

I was talking 'bout Monarchs.

 Crepovic, Djindic or Ljubibratic werent nobles

From left to right

Sankovici-Komska Zupa(Present day Kalinovik and Konjic
Kopcici-Bugojno-,Donji Vakuf,Gornji Vakuf, then non-existant place, where Bugojno stands today
Kacic, part in Visoka Krajina, part in central Bosnia

Vukovic and not Vlatkovic, there were no Vlatkovici
Radosalici vicelords of Prozor, lower Neretva

Nikolici is new last name, probably recent date
Draskovici are Croats, that became Serbs

In Hercegovina you had Ljubovici and Obradovice.Obradovici were Vlachs, that in one village became Muslim(Stolac Obradovici)
In Neum were Croats, and in Serbia orthodox