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Yaomachtia- Mexican martial arts

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Yaomachtia- Mexican martial arts
    Posted: 10-Dec-2011 at 19:16
Originally posted by Paul

Funnily enough this exactly the subject I've been researching now, I just wrote about it for my website.

The Meso-Americans did make full length swords out of obsidian, chert and flint.

The flint and chert ones would be pretty much unbreakable but far to heavy to weild and just ceremonial.

The obsidian ones would be far too fragile.

A third kind existed that was used in combat and described by the conquistadors where they would insert an obsidian blade in wood 50/50 that way the obsidian would be a lot less fragile.

The first one I made, the rest are archaeological finds.

 

 

 

 

 

 


That's some impressive flint-knapping. The bottom one in particular reminds me of a scaled-up version of the Stone Age handaxe found throughout Europe
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  Quote mcbrewer28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 09:39
The Yaomachtia Aztec Martial Arts is in fact true. Go the following site.
aztecanchientarts.webs.com/Tongue
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  Quote Supertomi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 16:27
xilam is a rip off
its just kung fu but with mexican animals
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  Quote Supertomi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 16:17
every culture has its own martial art
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  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 03:32
Hmmm. Mexica martial arts?

Well...none that are really known and taught today. However, there are some interesting stories about Mexica--and their northern cousins, the Zacatecas, Guachichiles, caxcanes, etc.--fighting conquistadores.

One was an account by someone known as the "anonymous conqueror" who was supposedly part of the conquest of mexico. He stated that he had seen a Mexican warrior fight against two (may have been three, been a while since I read it) conquistadores, take one of their spears and fight for an hour with it, and only die when a crossbowman shot him in the back.

I imagine it's quite possibly exaggerated some, but theres another story from the chichimeca wars about a warrior against several mounted lancers disarm perhaps two of them and fight for quite a while--with one lance stuck in him.

Bottom line is that there are enough accounts to assume that they were not bad hand-to-hand fighters; probably in some cases good enough to snatch away an enemy's weapons, which is actually quite hard to do. The accounts are probably exaggerated, but the message that the conquistadores thought of them as good fighters is there.
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  Quote pld Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2008 at 14:04

... And as far as the unarmed combat aspect goes, I think that it was very possible that the Aztec did something very similar. I was reading something yesterday on the History of Martial Arts. It said that forms of aggression such as wrestling are human and cultural universals.  It also said that as humans progressed we began to use these forms of aggression as a form of mock combat.  As I said before, I think the Aztec martial arts would have been similar to most basic martial arts systems of any other cultures.  If you look at a martial art like Pankration. Jim Arvanitis redeveloped that martial arts system from information that he ( heavily) researched and the moves that had to experiment with. Pankration really is a basic martial arts system that was used to train the Greeks and then it became a sport. It was used to train them because it was a no holds barred system, just like fighting in battle. I hate people who are so critical of people who are trying to revive the system.  We know what weapons they used, and we have a concept of how they used them. We also have a vague idea of what most cultures use as their unarmed combat systems. I don’t think it would be a stretch of the imagination to believe that the Aztecs were very similar if not the same at all. If they is anyone out there interested in researching this topic more in-depth, let me know.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 20:02
Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

what did the Mexicans do when they first saw the spanish riding horses? I know the Mexicans said the horses were large deer without horns but when the spanish were staying in Tenochtitlan with all their horses dont you think a  noble/politician/informer/ or a loyal servant to Moctezuma  would have got curiouse or been sent to learn how to ride a horse? Also after the 1st battle of Tenochtitlan dont you think when the Spanish retreated they would have abandon some horses? did the Mexicans capture them and learn to ride them? or did they just sacrificed them all? I dont think they would have sacrificed them all. Then they could have used the horses against the Spanish-Tlaxcallan army.

As far as we know, they sacrificed them all when they captured them alive.

The Tenochca were, in some senses, very traditional - compared to the rest of the Nahuatl they seem to have been something like religious fanatics, even. It got them into trouble a few times (as when they flayed the daughter of a powerful king in the Valley, soon after they arrived, after which they were supposedly banished to a swampy, muddy island in the middle of Lake Tenochtitlan).

The Texcocoans might have done something like this if they ever had the opportunity to do so, they were more progressive (if that term can be used) and more innovative. But I'm not sure whether or not they ever would have had the opportunity.

Other native groups certainly were quick to adopt the horse, particularly groups on or near the Great Plains or the pampas. Had they the chance, the Inca too intended to not only learn to ride horses, but to capture Spaniards and have them build guns and cannon - this was apparently Atahualpa's intent when he met Pizarro at Cajamarca, but he was a little too overconfident to pull it off!

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 19:39

Originally posted by pld

The Aztecs would train their warriors  in a school called Telpochcalli. Here, they would learn the art of war.

Telpochcalli were the elementary schools where small children were taught - part of the Aztec system of compulsory education, but were not truly military in nature - iirc, the only combat they really taught was archery and the atlatl/javelin.

Warriors were trained in the calmecac, which was a school for the sons of nobility and aspiring priests (maybe for pochtecas too?).

As far as the hand to hand ( non weapon) combat aspect, it a little harder because a lot of people what to belive that the Aztec's had a system by which they trained hand to hand combat. This aspect of Aztec training we may never know. If you study other mesoamerican culutres and even some Native American culutres, they did engage in some form of wrestling. I dont know if they used this to train for war

Most weapons training - even in medieval Europe - started off with unarmed combat, moved up to simple weapons like the dagger, and only once all that was mastered, did they start to teach more advanced subjects like the sword or pole weapons. Here's an example from a medieval fechtbuch:

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/sf20.JPG

I expect that with the Aztecs, it was likely much the same.



Edited by edgewaters - 16-Dec-2008 at 19:40
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  Quote pld Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 15:58

Ive got a theory that i would like to share. Ive been reading all these post about Aztec Martial Arts. First i would like to point out the obvious, Anyone whos says the Aztec never had a martial art is wrong. The Aztecs would train their warriors  in a school called Telpochcalli. Here, they would learn the art of war. So the biggest question is what techniques did the Aztecs teach at these schools?  The only way to possibly come up with how the Aztecs trained their warriors, is to look at all world culutres as a whole. It is not as if the Aztecs were completly off the map from other cultures. I think the biggest connection is the weapons they used to wage war. The BOW and ARROW, the SLING, the ATLATL, and SPEARS. ALL these weapons can be found in other cultures as well. So they techniques used to train warriors with them would be somewhat similar to other cultures. Even the concept of the sword is found in the Macuahuitl more or less.

As far as the hand to hand ( non weapon) combat aspect, it a little harder because a lot of people what to belive that the Aztec's had a system by which they trained hand to hand combat. This aspect of Aztec training we may never know. If you study other mesoamerican culutres and even some Native American culutres, they did engage in some form of wrestling. I dont know if they used this to train for war, but heres what i can speculate. Think about what it would be like on the battlefield, and you have no weapon. How are you going to fight  a man with/or without a weapon. There would probley be a struggle, and the fight would probley go to the ground. They would most likely use what was available to them... their hands,feet,head,elbows,knees, etc to stay alive.  Do i think they my ancestors were running around putting people in crazy submissions holds. No, but i do think they were using what they needed to use when the time came to stay alive.  THey would of used BASIC, almost instictive martial art techinques. Can this have been trained to Aztec warriors? Of course, but i dont think there would of been a heavy concentration on it. They were most likley teaching them how to use their weapons and the values of being a warrior.
 
Conclusion: Anyone looking to revive the Aztec martial art would have a really hard time delveloping a system that they could claim was "actually" taught to Aztec warriors.  I can only offer this advice. Teach the values that were instilled in the Aztec Warrior. Study how other culutres similar to the Aztec trained their warriors to used weapons. As far as the hand to hand ( no weapon) combat training, your going to have to take a leap of faith. I would train in a martial art which concetrated on basic striking/clinch(wrestling)/and very basic submissions. Id advise a martial art such as Pankration, which has a little bit of everything, but realize that the Aztec martial art would of most likely been less structured.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 12:06
Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

so no mexican warriors or knights didnt ride the spanish horses during the conquest?

 
Not in Mexico. However, Natives of other latitudes, in austral South America, addapted horses quite fast and defeated the conquestadors.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 14:14
    sorry it is www.xilam.org
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 14:08
hey iztzocelotd most of all martial arts were created out of war. yaomachtia is aperfect example of a matial art. of course no system is titled a martial arts until it is annouced or discoverd.unfortuanatly for our ancestors the mexicas they were irradicaded by the spanish along with what could've been a great martial art.
there are prabably indigenous people in mexico who know some fighting techniques that have been past down from generation to gen. somenoe would just have to put all together. but you & every one who is intrested in mexican martial arts should check out dis web site www.xilam.com      
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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 21:13

so no mexican warriors or knights didnt ride the spanish horses during the conquest?



Edited by ITZOCELOTL
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 18:05


actually, the heads of the captive conquistadores and their horses were placed at the Tzompantli.

The mesoamericans became outstanding riders after the Conquest. The spaniards were so affraid that the mexicans could master the arts of cavalry and banned to the indians under punishment of death, to ride a horse.
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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 21:55

what did the Mexicans do when they first saw the spanish riding horses? I know the Mexicans said the horses were large deer without horns but when the spanish were staying in Tenochtitlan with all their horses dont you think a  noble/politician/informer/ or a loyal servant to Moctezuma  would have got curiouse or been sent to learn how to ride a horse? Also after the 1st battle of Tenochtitlan dont you think when the Spanish retreated they would have abandon some horses? did the Mexicans capture them and learn to ride them? or did they just sacrificed them all? I dont think they would have sacrificed them all. Then they could have used the horses against the Spanish-Tlaxcallan army.

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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 21:45

Hey paul how many maquahuitls have you built? well if you cant sell me one, can you send me one? I want to build my own but I just want a hands-on example to make my own. Ill give you my adress and stuff. But if you cant its all right man. Is their any Maquahuitl craftsmen in Mexico?

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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 00:01


as matter of fact, the Purepechas used extensivelly the copper. Even, the mexicas built some copper axes.
However, being located at the Basin of the Valley of Mexico, it was more easier to get access to the obsidian.

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  Quote Kynsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 09:54
If I got the right impression that someone is teching this ancient art, Yes?

I must say ITZOCELOTL that this is a very popular trick to get "edge" in to your gym and to seperate from the rest and get better business to a new gym.
Other tricks are "this MA is used by the military" or the two combined "this art has been used by the military since ancient times."

Often the martial arts are made to be something mystic and there fore super deadly, sadly the reality is more brutal.

But hey who knows maby this MA makes an exception

If I am not mistaken the consept of martial arts, as we know it, formed somewhere in late 1800 and early 1900.

Ofcourse there has allways been traning in the military to teach what to do with a weapon, but to say that they teached Yaomachtia in the military is quite vague. In the ancient times probably the most "teaching" came from sparring and real battles.
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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 18:00

Thanks for the information paul, no it isnt offensive to be called Mexican    I was just wondering because your so interested in Mexican history and culture, well are you Mexican?  I am but i was born in Los angeles California, we natives of california call california,  Callitlan! etze!

My parents come from Mexico and I have been all over Mexico

Tenochtitlan(mexico city), teotihuacan, everywhere man and our culture lives its just the Spanish have made Mexico really bad! yes they gave us domesticated animals, boats, guns, horses, they forced us to speak spanish , take spanish names, be catholic and tried to destroy every aspect of our culture,  but all that will never make up for the genocidal holocaust they commited!

Tlazohcamati paul! tiahui! Mexico- the center of the moon. did you know Mexico means the center of the moon in nahuatl?



Edited by ITZOCELOTL
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 17:02
Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

Spanish saying that my ancestors would put an obsidian blade in wood 50/50 and it would make the obsidian less fragile? if you have any pics or anything of the 50/50 wood with an obsidian blade post it please.

Instead of having a two foot obsidian sword you make a 1ft one and insert it into 1ft of wood to make a Roman style Gladius so there's less obsidian, hence 50% as fragile.

The obsidian is no stronger for being added to wood in this particular way. There's just less of it.

In the case of a maquahuitl it is made stronger by the wood, for reasons Invictus explains, similar to a Katana.

 

Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

 Cant you forge and make the obsidian malleable? like steel you can make it malleable with extreme heat,  could my ancestors have been able to make obsidian malleable to make it into a sharp smooth blade? like those pics you have the blades are all bumpy and have alot of gap things.

Obsidian is glass formed from 80%+ silicous lava coming into contact with water and cooling rapidly. Glass can melt, so can obsidian. Obsidian has a more variable melting temperature to glass depending upon what other minerals are mixed in with it. Often it melts at a lower temperature than glass because most metals do. Aztecs could melt copper and gold, which melt at about 2/3 the temperature of glass, so the possibility of making their kilns hotter and melting obsidian was realistic. However they were so good knappers and could produce blades with ease in minutes, perhaps that's why they didn't do it.

 

Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

If the obsidian was weak how did my Mexican ancestors hold off and slaughter the Spanish and Tlaxcala traitors for such along time until the fall, and rape of Mexico? if the obsidian was fragile and a battalion of Mexican warriors were sent out equipped with obsidian swords to duel with spanish swordsman wouldnt the Mexicans swords just shattered when they blocked the swing of a spanish sword? and that would have led to a way faster defeat of my ancestors. Or was the obsidian strong enough to duel with and effective enough to overcome a Spaniard in a duel? I mean if i was a Mexican warrior back then,  was equipped with an obsidian sword and I started to duel with a Spaniard and when I blocked his swings or thrusts with my sword my sword would just shatter I would retreat. But history says my ancestors held them off for along time, for example the battle called, The night of victory, or La noche triste for the Spanish. Plus when Cortes came back again to Tenochtitlan we still held them back and fought to the bloody end. We were not beaten in 1 day or 2 days, I believe the battle lasted 300 days?

The best way to think of a maquahuitl is glass similar to that in your windows inserted into a wooden paddle. They are more fragile than a sword but are still strong by comparison to flesh and bone.

In a sustained fight with a conquistador the maquahuitl would take damage, but it has many blades.

 

Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

But yeah I am seriouse about the Maquahuitl, if you have a web site were you sell them I would definetly buy one for 20 to 30 dollars because I heard in the time of the MEXICAN empire maquahuitls were cheap to make.

I do have a website but it's dedicated to ballistically testing them and studying their history and development not selling them.

I know of nobody who sells them. Comercially knapped obsidian sells for $5 per square inch, there are a few sites that I've found advertising it. That's $240 for the blades alone. Which is why there's no potential business selling maquahuitl.

And to think last week I completely obliterated two maquahuitl and blades, test cutting with them.

I learnt to knap myself because I couldn't afford to buy knapped obsidian. Unknapped the same blades cost about $40 and take around an hour  each to make.

The only way I know to get one is make it yourself, which I can recommend as a great hobby. A simple method maybe to buy a small pane of glass, a glass cutter and a piece of wood from your local DIY store, and have fun.

 

 

Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

By the way paul, just interested dont get offended or somthing, are you Mexican?

Is it offensive to be called Mexican

Sadly I've never even been there.



Edited by Paul
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
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