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Why did Hitler declare war on US ?

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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why did Hitler declare war on US ?
    Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 13:54
After Pearl Harbour, Us declared war on Japan, but not Germany. Many american did not want to declare war on germany. But Hitler declared war on US. This was strange.Since Hitler had known that Germany was  no match with US.He once reminded those officiers the lesson of WW1, that Us entered the war due to the sinking of her ships,and let to the final downfall  of the Germany Empire. so he asked the submarine officiers to handle the Us ships carefully. But after Pearl Harbour, why didi he declare war on US, founding trouble for himself, since he had already have great trouble-- the giant of the East Russia. This did not make sense.He did not need to fulfill the alliance with Japan, since Japan did not declare war on Russia. He knew that the mighty industrial power of Us could handle two enemies at the same time, but German could not co-operate with japan effectively.Then why. Did the medicine he take creat illusion to him,letv him thought that he was so great, that mean he totally lost his mind when he made such decision.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 16:02
Because he was a slave of his ego.
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  Quote BMC21113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 16:19

I do not know if anyone is familiar with this, but Hitler had another book which was never released. I watched a program over this on the History channel, and if I remember correctly, this will help the discussion. In Hitlers unreleased book ( I do not remember the name), Hitlers true feelings of the US were partly of admiration. Now, I know this sounds odd, but according to Hitler, "America was draining the best of the aryan people from Germany." Now, in Hitlers mind, the USA was doing things that his native Germany could not accomplish while the USA existed. He saw the German immigrants to the US as ambitious, determined, intelligent and resourceful. Also, it is apparent that Hitler strongly admired the US treatment of the native populations. In Hitlers mind, he saw the USA power structure controlled by mostly Aryan (white) European descent. He saw the US as a relentless economic machine, capable of self-sufficiency and great prosperity. According to the book, Hitler had made plans to attack the USA well before the attack on Pearl Harbor (If I am incorrect on this please let me know). His reasons were overall fairly simple: 1. He felt that if the US was to be defeated, Germany must act quickly. 2. Hitlers psychological competence is questionable throughout the entirity of the war (even before), thus he did not always make the correct decisions and was often very dillusional. 3. He was truly a slave to his ego (as posted)

-I hope this can help the discussion get rolling.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2005 at 23:08

One of the big reasons was that the Japanese ambassador to Germany had hinted that if Germany declared war on the USA, the Japanese might declare war on the Russians and help him out of that sticky situation.  Obviously that never happened and Hitler got jipped.

Hitler also expected that sooner or later the US was going to go to war with Germany and the sooner that happened, the sooner he could unleash his U-boats against the Lend-Lease convoys sustaining British resistance to him.

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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 12:30
You stated that Hitler was cheated by the Japanese. May you tell me where do you find the source. Then I can carru out study on this.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 16:32

Hitler was not cheated yb the Japanese, it was more liek the other way round. have a look at the events:

in 1937, Germany and Japan signed the antikomintern pact, a treaty of cooperation against the communist threat = Soviet Union.

in early 1939, Manchurian border cavalry clashed with Mongolian border cavalry, the conflict escalated in a mini war between the Soviet Union and Japan in which the Soviets were sucessfull and Japan signed a treaty of non-agression with Russia, while at the same time Germany and the Soviet Union signed the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact...

so it was already obvious in 1939 that Japan would not assist Germanys invasion of russia but instead focus on the "southern" front. the Soviets also had a joker in the form of Richard Sorge, a Soviet agent in Japan of German descendance who did tell the STAVKA that Germany would invade the Soviet Union in summer 1941 (which was ignored) and also, more importantly, that Japan is not going to go to war with Russia, this enabled the Soviets to move their Siberian troops to europe.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 17:27
From what I heard Hitler actually seemed to despise the USA on a very subjective level. The whole system of democratic elections and such must have seemed absurd to a fascist like Hitler. He also disliked their integration of so many races into the one nation, once referring to the USA as "half Jew and half negro".
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  Quote Hector Victorious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 18:34
I Think made many mistakes in his Rein of power, this just happens to be one of them......
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2005 at 23:36

Originally posted by tommy

You stated that Hitler was cheated by the Japanese. May you tell me where do you find the source. Then I can carru out study on this.

I originally heard this on the History Channel, but here's a website about it with quotes by Hitler and the Japanese foreign minister.

http://www.thirdreichpages.com/unitedstates.htm

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  Quote BMC21113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 01:18

Originally posted by Constantine XI

From what I heard Hitler actually seemed to despise the USA on a very subjective level. The whole system of democratic elections and such must have seemed absurd to a fascist like Hitler. He also disliked their integration of so many races into the one nation, once referring to the USA as "half Jew and half negro".

 

-This reminds me of the notorious propaganda Hitler used against America. According to him, America was a "land of thieves" or under the influence of a "Jew President." Though I feel that he TRULY believed these things, the main purpose of these statements was to rally the people.

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"The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 14:07

well from what i know, hitler declared war on the USA because of the help britain was getting from them. there is no doubt in my mind that britatin would have asked for a truce with germany had it not been for the american aid.

and because germany and japan were allies, germany had to declare war on the USA, the same way USSR had to declare war on japan.  and the USA was also planning on declaring war on german also so it really doesnt make a difference.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 19:13
Not actually. As far as I know, the USA wasn't actually planning to declare war on Germany. US interest was to keep Britain and the British Empire safe and to supress the regionalist hegemony of Japan in Eastern Asia and the Pacific. The USA had planned to attack Japan prior to Pearl Harbour but had no inmediate plans to attack Germany. 

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 03:46

Originally posted by Maju

Not actually. As far as I know, the USA wasn't actually planning to declare war on Germany. US interest was to keep Britain and the British Empire safe and to supress the regionalist hegemony of Japan in Eastern Asia and the Pacific. The USA had planned to attack Japan prior to Pearl Harbour but had no inmediate plans to attack Germany. 

I think you're wrong to imply some kind of monolithic solidarity on the US side. The pro-German party in the US was quite strong, seeing it in the US's interests to weaken the British Empire. Even Roosevelt saw this clearly enough and started undermining British hegemony in the Middle East as early as the Cairo summit.

Mind you, that just strengthens your view that the US had no immediate plans to attack Germany.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 07:11
What I mean is that the USA considered the British Empire (together with Latin America, China and the Pacific rim) as part of the the Grand Area, a region on which US interests were prioritary and that they considered essential to keep an economic advantage over Germany, as it was in the peak of its military success: controlling virtually all Europe. This obviously doesn't mean that they intended to keep Britain as the leading power in that bloc but rather replace it. 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 09:14

Originally posted by Maju

Not actually. As far as I know, the USA wasn't actually planning to declare war on Germany. US interest was to keep Britain and the British Empire safe and to supress the regionalist hegemony of Japan in Eastern Asia and the Pacific. The USA had planned to attack Japan prior to Pearl Harbour but had no inmediate plans to attack Germany. 

Any plan to attack Japan on the part of the U.S. is news to me.  Is there a creditable source for this?

 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 09:55

Originally posted by Maju

What I mean is that the USA considered the British Empire (together with Latin America, China and the Pacific rim) as part of the the Grand Area, a region on which US interests were prioritary and that they considered essential to keep an economic advantage over Germany, as it was in the peak of its military success: controlling virtually all Europe. This obviously doesn't mean that they intended to keep Britain as the leading power in that bloc but rather replace it. 

You are maing reference I think to the geopolitical thinking of Britain's Halford Mackinder, and the U.S. political scientist Nicholas Spykman.

Mackinder in around 1904 or 05 maintained that whichever power controlled the "Heartland," or the Eurasian landmass, controlled the world by being entrenched on the coasts and the strategic "narrow sea" lanes.  The importance of the narrow seas (English Channel, Gibraltar, Suez, Malacca, Tsushima) lay in their importance to commerce and economic dominance.

The "Rimland" or outer continents could only survive this by the maintenance of adequate sea power.  Mackinder had revised this view in 1943 in light of the developments of WWII, and came closer to N. Spykman's 1930s view that, rather than control of the Heartland, it was the control of the Rimland that was more important.....This was the eventual origin of the strategy of "containment" of the USSR.

Before about 1940, the United States did not have enough navy to maintain its interests other than in the Pacific, and that was a stretch.  Only the combination of U.S. and U.K. naval power could assure the containment of Germany, and only alliance with the USSR (on land) could assure its defeat.

Near the end of the war, it became obvious that Britain would not be able to maintain its former position world wide, and there was no longer any support for keeping India as an imperial presence.....without that, there was no point to the empire.  With the enormous increase in U.S. naval power 1940-45, it was a foregone conclusion that the "Rimland" would have to be controlled by the U.S.  No alternative. 

I don't think there was any plan to displace Britain, but as realities changed during the war, it came about due to circumstance.

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 10:57
Acually my inmediate source is Heinz Dieterich, who in his book (shared with Noam Chomski) "The Winners" (at least that's the Spanish title: Los Vencedores, Ed. Txalaparta) makes a throughtout analysisi of the geostrategical objectives of the three main players of WWII: Germany, Japan and the USA. He says that Japan was imitating the "regionalist" behaviour of the USA, trying to create an exclussive area under its hegemony. The Germans were somehow trying to copy the British Empire on land, with the declared aim of making of Russia "the India of Germany". Eventually US think tanks evaluated the total self-sufficiency of the coresponding regions, realizing that German dominated area was much more self-suficient than the Anglo-American sphere (British Empire and America continent basically). They made their maths and concluded that to make sure that the USA would be able to be more self-sufficient than Nazi Germany, they needed to add China and the Pacific to their area of geopolitical hegemony. Therefore Japan needed to be supressed as a global player and US intervention in the Pacific was a must. The declared alternative was to make of the USA a socialist state, in the fashion of the USSR or whatever, something that nobody seemed to prefer.

As I imagine that you won't take Dieterich as a trustworthy source (though he's very respected in many circles), I've made some search and I've found this:
  1. McCollum Memo: a US Naval Intelligence document that explains in a less economic and more military manner why and how to make war against Japan.
  2. A document by Japanese ambassador Saburo Kurusu denouncing the attitude of the USA.
  3. A recent article by Charles Burres debunking the myth of Pearl Harbour.
  4. Another recent article of The Independent, inteviewing Robert Stinnett, author of Day of Deceit, also debunking the myth of Pearl Harbour attack.
Hope this is enough.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:10

I must confess I was not familiar with Dieterich, but I looked up a few things on his writing.  He seems nostalgic for 1960s style revolutions (none of which amounted to much), and he does not seem too familiar with the history or actual geo-strategy of World War II.  As for old Chomsky, his rhetoric is rather tired and moth-eaten.  He should have stayed a linguist.

The McCollum memo I am familiar with.  It is a position paper, not a war plan.  That is what military staffs do during periods of crisis - make contingency plans.

Ambassador Kurusu (in a 1942 piece) was an official of the Japanese foreign ministry.  Of course the war was someone else's fault.

I am not convinced, in spite of over 60 years of failed attempts at proving it, that either the navy or FDR knew of an imminent attack on Hawaii.  Of course they knew there was a possibility of a Japanese attack, but losing much of your fleet is hardly the preferred entree into a naval war.  The disclosure of a mere attempt at attacking the fleet would have been sufficient as a casus belli.

Just my argument though.

 

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 11:26
I agree with you in that Chomski's politcal writings are all the same: read one, read all. Dieterich though, I find him more interesting.

In any case, the issue is that despite the agressivity of Japan at that time. Japanese knew that attacking the USA was no easy adventure: a whole ocean, the widest in the world, separated both countries, Japan had no bases close to the US mainland and Japanese power could not compare to that of the USA. Japanese rulers could be fascists, agressive and war criminals but they weren't that stupid.

In fact Japan avoided to attack US colonies, while they had no problem attacking other western colonies, such as French, Dutch or British. Sign of their relative prudence is that they avoided to declare war on Russia as well. But they knew that the USA had major interests in "their" region beyond Philippines and Guam, they knew of Nordamericans evaluations and they knew that war was eventually unavoidable and that the USA was making preparations. What they seem to have ignored is that they needed a good pretext to justify the intervention to their isolationist Public Opinion. Japanese gave that pretext indeed with the daring attack against Pearl Harbour. There's also debate on wether the USA knew about that attack in advance. I think it is the case but, with the most important documents still classified, 65 years after the events, it's dificult to prove, at least for me.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 12:03
In 1941, the U.S. was indeed preparing for the war that they knew could not any longer be avoided.  The view was that Germany was by far the most important adversary, but that Japanese moves into south Asia, for all the strategic materials they needed, would further stress Britain and would endanger communications with Australia (a critical base and staging area in case of war).

At the same time as the Pearl Harbor operation, the Japanese moved on the Phillipines, as well as Guam, both U.S. possessions, to try to complete the pre-emptive strike on U.S. power in the Pacific.  It was assumed that a move on those places was most likely, as they were clearly indefensible.  I doubt an attack on Hawaii was thought likely...too far; and as you say, no forward deployed bases. 

Having said that, the Japanese operation was tactically brilliant and caught all the available battleships of the Pacific fleet in port.  If naval intelligence knew of the attack, the fleet would have been at sea and able to fight.  Any engagement at all would have been sufficient for war.

Incidentally, part of the suspicion that the navy was aware of this was the fact that naval intelligence broke the Japanese codes later, well into 1942. By Midway, June, 1942, they were more aware of Japanese plans and movements and better able to anticipate them.  I think a lot of people assume this was the case before Pearl Harbor, but it was not.














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